Ongoing ASLEF overtime bans

[Bevan Price]

Exactly. This brings no pleasure to any driver, thats for sure. Morale is as low as I've ever known it.


No one is saying drivers haven't done well. But for the umpteenth time this is about the Ts and Cs . A small below inflation payrise would be acceptable, provided drivers aren't forced to completely wreck our work life balance.


Sorry, but you sound like you have fallen for the Tory party propaganda machine. To accuse train drivers of being sheep shows how far removed you are from the situation and the realities. Also, i don't think most drivers care if recruitment is frozen or services reduced, as there will be NO compulsory redundancies of drivers so not really too much of a threat. A recruitment freeze of a year or two will be followed by a frenzied few years of recruitment anyway. It really isn't a threat. Only the travelling public will lose, so another well done to the wonderful Tory party.

No. I have not fallen for tory propaganda. I just see the reality of the situation. The dispute has existed for over year and it is obvious that this government is content to let it happen forever.** It is like Thatcher v Scargill Version 2, and there is no way that the unions are going to be allowed to win. And I doubt that there will be any future years of frenzied recruitment - more likely to be staff reductions due to retirement, and gradual service reductions to match available staff number.

** If the government cared about passengers, it would not be supporting ticket office closures. The conclusions of their "review" are quite possibly already written, no matter what comments objectors may make, and expect them to proceed regardless with ticket office closures.

 

[irish_rail]

No. I have not fallen for tory propaganda. I just see the reality of the situation. The dispute has existed for over year and it is obvious that this government is content to let it happen forever.** It is like Thatcher v Scargill Version 2, and there is no way that the unions are going to be allowed to win. And I doubt that there will be any future years of frenzied recruitment - more likely to be staff reductions due to retirement, and gradual service reductions to match available staff number.

** If the government cared about passengers, it would not be supporting ticket office closures. The conclusions of their "review" are quite possibly already written, no matter what comments objectors may make, and expect them to proceed regardless with ticket office closures.

Well I'd sooner stay as I am in the current situation, than take a well below inflation pay rise in exchange for working every other Sunday as compulsory overtime and a whole host of other "nasties " . So actually, train drivers are "winning" as we are not accepting the abysmal changes to working practices that are being proposed, so frankly, most train drivers are sitting pretty right now.

 

[Facing Back]

Which assumes... As may seem intent on doing so here... That the DfT is at all open to such negotiations. When the PM tells junior doctors and other public sector workers that he's not interested in negotiating further no matter how much they strike or complain you might want to think a little bit about how his DfT might approach industrial relations.

Yes indeed. I was responding to the specific question "what's the union to do?", not having a pop at them and it takes 2 to tango. If the TOCs/DfT won't engage at all then the other points in my earlier post would apply. The union accepts it, waits it out and hopes that there is a change in government and that the new government has a different view or they escalate the action significantly. Farting around with bits and pieces here and there is in effect waiting it out.

It might well be that the point at which negotiations on changes to T&Cs is past but I would hope that there is still scope for a reasonable discussion - and I hope that these have been going on quietly behind the scenes away from the public rhetoric. In other industries I would be very confident that they are - here, you rail insiders will need to tell me.

Saying all that, if the TOC/DfT's bottom line is really that all of the changes are coming as stated, and the union's really is that we'll accept no changes at all to T&C's then there seems little point in negotiations - but thats normally a starting position...

 

[BrokenSam]

Indeed. I find it amazing there are any Conservative voters left in this country, but hey , clearly there are!

Crazy after the last 13 years.

 

[dan5324]

Have to agree with ar10642. The strikes Barely cause any noticeable difference on the roads. National express are probably loving it, but the sky doesn’t fall in. People either drive, take the coach, maybe even pool car or taxi or simply work from home. Trains are used by a minority of people on a regular basis. That’s only gonna shrink.

 

[dk1]

Some are going to rely on railways more than others obviously. Just like this weeks junior & senior doctors dispute. I don’t rely on the NHS from one year to the next whereas many do on a weekly or monthly basis. Similar analogy if you look at it like that.

 

[Robertj21a]

Rail is responsible for around 10% of ‘passenger’ km travelled, which in My view is the most sensible way of measuring Transport usage. In terms of trips, rail is around 1-2%.

Thank you for this, much clearer than my vain attempts to try to explain!

We seem to still have a number of posters who confuse high number of train passengers with the proportion of the country who could vote for the government. As I have tried to say, the government isn't going to blink at whatever ASLEF or RMT decide to do - in overall terms of voter issues it's hardly on their radar.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well I'd sooner stay as I am in the current situation, than take a well below inflation pay rise in exchange for working every other Sunday as compulsory overtime and a whole host of other "nasties " . So actually, train drivers are "winning" as we are not accepting the abysmal changes to working practices that are being proposed, so frankly, most train drivers are sitting pretty right now.

"Welcome to the Rail Delivery Group Stadium, where FC ASLEF are taking on Real Tory. Its mid-way through the second half but still 0-0, there's been no shots on goal, in fact neither side has even touched the ball since the first ten minutes, and we still have extra time & penalties looming ahead. Its going to be a long match unless both teams actually start to try and play the game. My co-commentator @irish_rail is alongside, how do you see this going?"

"FC ASLEF have got this in the bag....."

Honestly as a former rep and existing union member if we were in a similar position and still claiming we were winning I'd be calling for the medics. This dispute has rumbled on for so long that technically the pay offer at least (i.e. combined 4% for 2022-2023 & 4% for 2023-2024) has nudged ahead of inflation, which is now at 7.9% and falling. I really don't think being in a negotiation stalemate, losing money when on strike and not earning any back through overtime, and not actually receiving bagging any pay increase, whilst the government have dug in so deep they are practically in China, can in any way be described as "winning".

 

[JonathanH]

This dispute has rumbled on for so long that technically the pay offer at least (i.e. combined 4% for 2022-2023 & 4% for 2023-2024) has nudged ahead of inflation, which is now at 7.9% and falling.

Huh? That isn't how it works. It remains a fact that prices have increased since 2021. A reduction in inflation in 2023 does not mean that 2022 inflation should be taken into account when setting the 2022 pay increase. 7.9% is still higher than the 4% being offered for the 2023 pay increase. As it happens RPI is still in double figures.

At some point next year the 2024 pay increase is going to be in dispute as well.

 

[Bantamzen]

Huh? That isn't how it works. It remains a fact that prices have increased since 2021. A reduction in inflation in 2023 does not mean that 2022 inflation should be taken into account when setting the 2022 pay increase. 7.9% is still higher than the 4% being offered for the 2023 pay increase.

That isn't the point I'm making, I'm talking about how long this dispute has run on for and how that that the inflation crisis itself is starting to come under control. I'm under no illusions that we will all be worse off for some time, very few pay deals are going to compensate for it.

 

[snookertam]

"Welcome to the Rail Delivery Group Stadium, where FC ASLEF are taking on Real Tory. Its mid-way through the second half but still 0-0, there's been no shots on goal, in fact neither side has even touched the ball since the first ten minutes, and we still have extra time & penalties looming ahead. Its going to be a long match unless both teams actually start to try and play the game. My co-commentator @irish_rail is alongside, how do you see this going?"

"FC ASLEF have got this in the bag....."

Honestly as a former rep and existing union member if we were in a similar position and still claiming we were winning I'd be calling for the medics. This dispute has rumbled on for so long that technically the pay offer at least (i.e. combined 4% for 2022-2023 & 4% for 2023-2024) has nudged ahead of inflation, which is now at 7.9% and falling. I really don't think being in a negotiation stalemate, losing money when on strike and not earning any back through overtime, and not actually receiving bagging any pay increase, whilst the government have dug in so deep they are practically in China, can in any way be described as "winning".

I think you’ve touched on the government strategy there. Force a stalemate, then leave everything to rack and ruin regardless of whether drivers accept or not. They know the railway is a minority mode of transport so only a certain section of the population will be inconvenienced, whilst the longer the dispute goes on the less interested the media will be.

If it causes irrecoverable damage to the reputation of the railway, or continues its overall decline then they won’t be sorry or upset. I worry that not particularly many people will.

Sorry for sounding so bleak. If there was any justice this UK government would be out on their ear and their successors would clean this all up, at least show they’re serious about resolving it. But the scorched earth tactics on display here are blatantly obvious.

 

[156421]

I think you’ve touched on the government strategy there. Force a stalemate, then leave everything to rack and ruin regardless of whether drivers accept or not. They know the railway is a minority mode of transport so only a certain section of the population will be inconvenienced, whilst the longer the dispute goes on the less interested the media will be.

If it causes irrecoverable damage to the reputation of the railway, or continues its overall decline then they won’t be sorry or upset. I worry that not particularly many people will.

Sorry for sounding so bleak. If there was any justice this UK government would be out on their ear and their successors would clean this all up, at least show they’re serious about resolving it. But the scorched earth tactics on display here are blatantly obvious.

On the plus side think of all the great cycling routes which could be implemented on the disused trackbeds of the Highlands/Cumberland/etc.

 

[yorksrob]

...which is a good thing... to the government.

Remember, the government is trying to bring down inflation. Supressing demand is one way.

In GCSE economics maybe, but in reality if you have too much money chasing too few goods and services, you want people to spend money in domestic services with high local employment as they have a sponge like capacity to absorb it. If you are experiencing constrained capacity at one ice cream stall, you can go to the next one without it having an inflationary effect on the price of a 99.

Alternatively, if everyone wants consumer goods manufactured abroad and there's a supply chain issue with those goods, that will push up inflation unless there's an alternative supply.

If the government want's to control inflation it should be nudging people towards domestic service industries and away from imported goods.

 

[Snow1964]

If the TOCs/DfT won't engage at all then the other points in my earlier post would apply. The union accepts it, waits it out and hopes that there is a change in government and that the new government has a different view or they escalate the action significantly. Farting around with bits and pieces here and there is in effect waiting it out.

Yes, totally agree, currently in stalemate

One side won't talk and doesn't mind if there is industrial action, other side can't afford indefinite strike until next election (which could be upto 17 months away)

So in meantime get huffing & puffing from Union (a scattering of short term actions between periods of normality) which seem to be nothing more than holding pattern, as nothing changes each time there is action. Become a bit like a war where there is only toy guns that both sides know won't do anything serious whilst they continue playing.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think you’ve touched on the government strategy there. Force a stalemate, then leave everything to rack and ruin regardless of whether drivers accept or not. They know the railway is a minority mode of transport so only a certain section of the population will be inconvenienced, whilst the longer the dispute goes on the less interested the media will be.

If it causes irrecoverable damage to the reputation of the railway, or continues its overall decline then they won’t be sorry or upset. I worry that not particularly many people will.

Sorry for sounding so bleak. If there was any justice this UK government would be out on their ear and their successors would clean this all up, at least show they’re serious about resolving it. But the scorched earth tactics on display here are blatantly obvious.

Honestly ever since HS2 reached it's aspirational peak and phases started to be downscaled or scrapped, along with many other big ticket projects like P15/16 at Manchester Piccadilly / NPR etc etc, the writing was pretty much on the wall. The rail network simply isn't this government's priority, and thanks to their covid strategies they've even given themselves a further reason to lower priorities further. So this dispute came right at a time where they needed a distraction, and certainly in my little corner of the world its actually working. Bit by bit services are getting cut because TOCs can't crew the old timetables due to them being behind on recruitment, training etc. So the cuts start to become the normal, and when this dispute finally reaches it's conclusion they could turn around and argue that there's no reason to reinstate anything that hasn't been running during the various issues. And frankly there's no reason to believe that an incoming Labour government would argue differently, though I'm sure that will be on a bucket list under the category "Jam tomorrow".

<switches on broken record>

As I've been saying from the start, choose your fights carefully and even then know when it might be time to take a step back and regroup for a future scuffle. Its exactly why I am not in favour of my own union's current pay dispute and would like them to come to a settlement, because as with the railways I can see a government eying up cost savings.

<puts broken record back into sleeve>

 

[RHolmes]

Losing money when on strike and not earning any back through overtime, and not actually receiving bagging any pay increase, whilst the government have dug in so deep they are practically in China, can in any way be described as "winning".

I’m an RMT member and I have to agree with ‘Irish rail’. We have won (to an extent). It’s not a huge victory and it’s not quite the home coming celebration, but we remain one step ahead in comparison to the government, in your football fantasy, we have the ball, we might not be scoring goals but the ball is ours.

So far there hasn’t been a single change implemented to either union that the government have been trying to push through for a year. Not one. No redundancies and no terms and conditions lost for either new or existing colleagues.

At TPE for example, the issue of drivers not working overtime got so bad that it actually caused the renationalisation of the TOC, and secured ASLEF their original pre-covid rest day deal that the DFT repeatedly were saying no to multiple times over, over the past year.

On the other side of spectrum you could claim that the DfT are now trying to to close pretty much every single ticket office in the UK, but as I type this not a single one has closed. The media have not been supportive of the policy, and there are several collective groups now challenging the policy and consultation in law, on the basis the consultation and proposed changes do not take accessibility or accessibility mitigation measures into account, There’s a chance it won’t actually come to fruition at all, and certainly not with the current DfT in power.

I also personally LOATHE the assumption that everyone within the union is losing pay. We’re not. The staffing situation at most companies is well talked about on here and most staff have the ability to earn back days lost through overtime. I appreciate not everyone can but from the ALEF perspective an overtime ban isn’t losing money because quite simply you never had that money in the first place. At the RMT side of things I’m ‘losing’ a single Saturdays pay this weekend. I’ve already worked two additional rest days to cover it at enhanced payments received by revised offers from the DfT since the dispute started so I’ve actually doubled the amount what I would have lost, whilst simultaneously having a rare weekend off that I’m now going to spend with my family and friends, and that’s worth more to me than a few £ signs.

 

[irish_rail]

Where i think Aslef will start to score some goals in this "match" is if the overtime bans continue. This will completely knacker training and route learning, and after a few months the cancellations will go up and up across the board. At that point every TOC will look like TPE, and pressure will be put on the Gov to have to act to resolve the situation. So for me, id keep the overtime ban going indefinitely, and perhaps worry less about having strike days.

 

[Bantamzen]

I’m an RMT member and I have to agree with ‘Irish rail’. We have won (to an extent). It’s not a huge victory and it’s not quite the home coming celebration, but we remain one step ahead in comparison to the government, in your football fantasy, we have the ball, we might not be scoring goals but the ball is ours.

So far there hasn’t been a single change implemented to either union that the government have been trying to push through for a year. Not one. No redundancies and no terms and conditions lost for either new or existing colleagues.

At TPE for example, the issue of drivers not working overtime got so bad that it actually caused the renationalisation of the TOC, and secured ASLEF their original pre-covid rest day deal that the DFT repeatedly were saying no to multiple times over, over the past year.

On the other side of spectrum you could claim that the DfT are now trying to to close pretty much every single ticket office in the UK, but as I type this not a single one has closed. The media have not been supportive of the policy, and there are several collective groups now challenging the policy and consultation in law, on the basis the consultation and proposed changes do not take accessibility or accessibility mitigation measures into account, There’s a chance it won’t actually come to fruition at all, and certainly not with the current DfT in power.

I also personally LOATHE the assumption that everyone within the union is losing pay. We’re not. The staffing situation at most companies is well talked about on here and most staff have the ability to earn back days lost through overtime. I appreciate not everyone can but from the ALEF perspective an overtime ban isn’t losing money because quite simply you never had that money in the first place. At the RMT side of things I’m ‘losing’ a single Saturdays pay this weekend. I’ve already worked two additional rest days to cover it at enhanced payments received by revised offers from the DfT since the dispute started so I’ve actually doubled the amount what I would have lost, whilst simultaneously having a rare weekend off that I’m now going to spend with my family and friends, and that’s worth more to me than a few £ signs.

You personally may be in a position not to lose financially, but I'd bet plenty of your colleagues are not or will not. There's a huge difference between that an the unions actually being in a winning position.

Right now the government has the upper hand, they have cemented their position and indicated quite clearly that they will not budge. The unions have tried various tactics such as overlapping day strikes, work to rule, overtime bans and now really only have one hand left, longer all out strikes. And I firmly suspect that is not a prospect they relish, which is why in a year's worth of dispute they have not yet tried it. On the flip side the government can simply sit back right up to the next GE, and even if they lose a new incoming government isn't likely to settle on Day 1, if at all. So you could be looking at well over 18 months more of this, with no real guarantee that TOCs will keep up current services levels, especially if training & recruitment becomes more of an issue.

So I disagree, that is not a winning position, not even close.

Where i think Aslef will start to score some goals in this "match" is if the overtime bans continue. This will completely knacker training and route learning, and after a few months the cancellations will go up and up across the board. At that point every TOC will look like TPE, and pressure will be put on the Gov to have to act to resolve the situation. So for me, id keep the overtime ban going indefinitely, and perhaps worry less about having strike days.

Or perhaps the government will just see a chance to reduce the cost of the railways and let service levels slip, with the unions right there to blame?

 

[156421]

Wonderfully insightful heading on the ever infallible BBC this morning... "Train disruption expected as rail workers strike"

 

[Bald Rick]

No I forget you're privy to every public sector union negotiation in the last 24 months

no, just the rail ones, with some insight from some of the others.

But why are they not expected to make cost savings to fund their 5 or 6 percent payrises?????

Speaking about education (as I have some involvement here) - they are being expected to make cost savings to help fund the teachers’ pay rise. Changes to some working conditions, redundancies, that sort of thing.

 

[irish_rail]

Speaking about education (as I have some involvement here) - they are being expected to make cost savings to help fund the teachers’ pay rise. Changes to some working conditions, redundancies, that sort of thing.

I suppose train drivers hold the upper hand in that redundancies isn't going to happen , and if it did would be voluntary.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Right now the government has the upper hand, they have cemented their position and indicated quite clearly that they will not budge. The unions have tried various tactics such as overlapping day strikes, work to rule, overtime bans and now really only have one hand left, longer all out strikes. And I firmly suspect that is not a prospect they relish, which is why in a year's worth of dispute they have not yet tried it. On the flip side the government can simply sit back right up to the next GE, and even if they lose a new incoming government isn't likely to settle on Day 1, if at all. So you could be looking at well over 18 months more of this, with no real guarantee that TOCs will keep up current services levels, especially if training & recruitment becomes more of an issue.

As far as the RMT are concerned I agree with what you say. I think that once the current advertised strikes are over they should sit back and re-think their tactics. Striking is clearly not having any sway at the moment and I do not want to end up like the never-ending Southern dispute a few years ago in which the RMT ultimately lost.
Perhaps an overtime ban should be the next step and not further strikes?

 

[railfan99]

Does nobody here understand what an anecdote is? I already quoted the stats and yes I agree 1.8 billion of a total of 17 is 10% ish. But stick those extra journeys on the road. Many of them long distance journeys and see what effect it has. Not to mention the time added in a journey from say, Leeds to London.

Agree, as if roads are already crowded anywhere in the world, five or 10 per cent more vehicles can make a lot of (adverse to quick journey times) difference.

 

[12LDA28C]

I’ll take it that you are quite happy to badly affect others’ jobs and livelihoods. Nice.

This whole situation has been brought about due to this inept Government's response to Covid, ie 'STAY AT HOME'. How's that for affecting jobs and livelihoods? Lay the blame at the door of Downing Street, not the Unions.

 

[RHolmes]

You personally may be in a position not to lose financially, but I'd bet plenty of your colleagues are not or will not. There's a huge difference between that a the unions actually being in a winning position.

Not at all. I’m not aware of a single member of staff that isn’t planning to continue strike action at the current rate (I.e overtime ban for drivers, 3 days a month for RMT) that hasn’t already defaulted to leave either union. We’re in this for the long haul and we know it.

Right now the government has the upper hand, they have cemented their position and indicated quite clearly that they will not budge.

They’ve said that before, and budged. The current incarnation of government is the party of U-turns after all.

2% and 2% was also claimed to be the final offer two transport ministers ago

The unions have tried various tactics such as overlapping day strikes, work to rule, overtime bans and now really only have one hand left, longer all out strikes. And I firmly suspect that is not a prospect they relish, which is why in a year's worth of dispute they have not yet tried it. On the flip side the government can simply sit back right up to the next GE, and even if they lose a new incoming government isn't likely to settle on Day 1, if at all. So you could be looking at well over 18 months more of this, with no real guarantee that TOCs will keep up current services levels, especially if training & recruitment becomes more of an issue.

Yes and we’re aware of that, and I can assure you the next mandate will be a vote for further industrial action. If I’m not mistaken are you not the poster who believed that signallers wouldn’t vote for industrial action?

In which case it’s the passengers that suffer and not the staff. Operators are currently struggling to cover reduced levels of service with current levels of staffing. Further service cuts will only reflect badly on the DfT, and you’ll have a situation again like TPE where devolved local powers step into the PR war.

So I disagree, that is not a winning position, not even close.

We’ve already won an increased (albeit poor offer), not lost a single condition of employment and had DOO dropped, as well as general support from the public and adjacent unions. What exactly have the government won?

 

[Ashley Hill]

We’ve already won an increased (albeit poor offer), not lost a single condition of employment and had DOO dropped

Then why are we still striking?

 

[kw12]

Wonderfully insightful heading on the ever infallible BBC this morning... "Train disruption expected as rail workers strike"

Perhaps this heading is because nothing has changed since last time and we have just reached the next date with disruption from rail worker strikes.

 

[Jan Mayen]

A few posts have used the acronym ASOS. May I ask what it stands for, please? (Apologies if I've missed irs definition)

Many thanks

PS: one of the oddities of today's combined ASLEF overtime ban and RMT strike action is that Faygate (which is normally peak hours only) is getting two trains an hour in each direction. I might take the opportunity to visit the local pub

 

[MikeWM]

This whole situation has been brought about due to this inept Government's response to Covid, ie 'STAY AT HOME'. How's that for affecting jobs and livelihoods? Lay the blame at the door of Downing Street, not the Unions.

I mostly agree, but the unions didn't help in the slightest when the 'stay at home' message was finally lifted, by endlessly going on about keeping social distancing and masks, implying that it wasn't 'safe' to travel by train and special precautions were necessary.

 

[Bevan Price]

Where i think Aslef will start to score some goals in this "match" is if the overtime bans continue. This will completely knacker training and route learning, and after a few months the cancellations will go up and up across the board. At that point every TOC will look like TPE, and pressure will be put on the Gov to have to act to resolve the situation. So for me, id keep the overtime ban going indefinitely, and perhaps worry less about having strike days.

The danger of that is the government - via DfT and (former) TOCs - will make permanent reductions in services.
Also, they may decide that, as their so-called negotiations have "failed" (in their warped viewpoint), they will simply impose future pay scales and changes in conditions without formal discussions.