Services advertised as terminating at penultimate station

[GordonT]

Three questions relating to services such as York-Leeds stoppers which at York are advertised as York-Burley Park and at Leeds are advertised as Leeds-Poppleton the logic being to dissuade end to end pax from unwittingly boarding a service with a significantly longer journey time than faster options.
i) Do services of this sort morph into admitting their real destination on announcements and destination screens once they have departed?;
ii) Would the real destination be disclosed at the departure terminus if the alternative faster options became thin on the ground e.g. evening/Sunday frequency reductions, multiple ad hoc cancellations/severe disruption affecting only the faster options?;
iii) If someone in the know had their own reason for preferring to travel by the much slower service e.g. guaranteed a seat or meeting up with someone joining the train en route, is there likely to be any staff resistance to them travelling end to end on the slow option as long as they have a valid end to end ticket?

 

[bicbasher]

I've seen it with the Cannon Street circulars on Southeastern. Trains that are put on departure boards as going to either Crayford, Barnehurst or Slade Green.

I remember using the circulars from Erith years back that said they were only going to Sidcup but continued onwards.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

Hello there, due to having some random knowledge in this field,
I should be able to answer your questions with the knowledge I have gained about London Waterloo stoppers doing this

1) I’m not sure about this but I believe that the front destination only will always be correct so no changes needed and the announcements admit it from the starting station.

2) Not sure again as I don’t have much experience with these services in practice, they probably don’t as I think they would set up the destination board again and that takes valuable time

3) For this, I’m pretty sure you’ll find that staff don’t care for the most part as they aren’t there to prevent you getting aboard a train that goes to the destination that they wish albeit a little slower than the other option.

Also, I am perfectly open to correction if you know different to me.

 

[PGAT]

i) Depends on the reason. If it's because of a circular service, then no they don't. If it's because of a faster service existing (eg Reading to Paddington), then yes

ii) Can't confirm for certain, but probably not, I don't think the technology is that advanced

iii) Nope

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

i) For circular services, there can be more than one "false destination" as the train continues. On some trains the destination will change on the front and inside, it might even match what's advertised at the station!
ii) These destinations are in the timetable (but only received through the real-time system) so in theory you needn't give one to a train that had no competition. I don't know how often this happens, and it won't happen after cancellations
iii) Very unlikely. There might be a Routeing Guide easement to try to stop you making a circular journey the "wrong" way round, opinions differ about whether that's applicable to a direct train. If it's simply slow - no problem at all

 

[W-on-Sea]

In my experience (above all concerning GWR services shown as terminating at Ealing Broadway, or, formerly, from Paddington, at Twyford).

1) yes, once it at a station or on a section of route without faster alternatives

2) generally not as much as it would be desirable to do so, in terms of promoting earliest possible arrival times at the final destination

3) not at all. Curiousity, perhaps,but no ground for hostility

 

[_toommm_]

Three questions relating to services such as York-Leeds stoppers which at York are advertised as York-Burley Park and at Leeds are advertised as Leeds-Poppleton the logic being to dissuade end to end pax from unwittingly boarding a service with a significantly longer journey time than faster options.
i) Do services of this sort morph into admitting their real destination on announcements and destination screens once they have departed?;
ii) Would the real destination be disclosed at the departure terminus if the alternative faster options became thin on the ground e.g. evening/Sunday frequency reductions, multiple ad hoc cancellations/severe disruption affecting only the faster options?;
iii) If someone in the know had their own reason for preferring to travel by the much slower service e.g. guaranteed a seat or meeting up with someone joining the train en route, is there likely to be any staff resistance to them travelling end to end on the slow option as long as they have a valid end to end ticket?

I’m quite familiar with these trains as I live on that line and use them regularly:

• The announcements and PIS at stations will say Poppleton via Harrogate at Leeds, and Burley Park via Harrogate at York. On the train, the PIS by and large says ‘Welcome aboard this Turbostar Class 170 service to Leeds/York’ (I believe that’s the correct wording give or take a few words). There by and large aren’t automated announcements on the 170s but the guard will announce it as its actual destination.

• I’ve never seen them announced as alternatives at stations, as if there’s problems on the mainline between Leeds and York, they’ll often divert TPE and XC via Castleford.

• If you have a ticket from Leeds to York, it’ll work as long as it’s an any permitted, which as TPE set most fares from Leeds to York, you can only have any permitted or Northern only standard class fares that aren’t advances. You might get a heads up from the guard before departure that there are quicker trains if you do the full journey, but most of the time it’s more of a courtesy message rather than a question on validity.

 

[GordonT]

Thank you to all who have responded to my initial post. A degree of "common sense" would appear to apply in most of the contingencies with perhaps a need for operators to be more alive to promoting the availability of the slow/circuitous option where there is one if major problems befall the normally fast/direct option.

 

[sk688]

Watford Junction boardsnsometimes promote the stopping service to Euston as running to Kilburn High Road or South Hampstead

 

[Peter0124]

I believe the Newcastle to Glasgow SR services used to be advertised as terminating at Barrhead (at Newcastle).

 

[GordonT]

And I think the Kings Cross-Cambridge stoppers used to be advertised as Foxton ex Kings Cross (and Finsbury Park ex Cambridge?). Do they still do this?
Are there any examples where this practice does not pertain but arguably should?

 

[JN114]

Back in the mists of time when I dealt with CIS at then-FGW, the CIS system wasn’t intelligent enough to know that a false destination-ed train was now the fastest train.

As such we had a rule that overnight automatically applied all the false destinations for the day’s service, based entirely on calling pattern; and then we used to go back through manually with a list of trains where this wasn’t the case for and delete them off. On the ball CIS operators would twig when such situations manifested on the fly and could intervene; but typically there wasn’t the capacity to be looking at that level of minutiae during disruption.

 

[Anvil1984]

I believe the Newcastle to Glasgow SR services used to be advertised as terminating at Barrhead (at Newcastle).

Initially it was shown as a Newcastle - Glasgow through service, then as you say gained the false destination of Barrhead at Newcastle then towards the end of its life it became two separate headcodes / services utilising the same unit (Newcastle to Carlisle, Carlisle to Glasgow) with the connection not advertised

The false destination came in as there was a 0630 Newcastle to Glasgow via Carlisle (Northern / Scotrail) service and a 0630 Newcastle to Edinburgh (can't remember which iteration of the East Coast franchise). Passengers for Glasgow with advance tickets connecting in Edinburgh would get on the Glasgow service and even if you made 3 / 4 announcements before departure would remain on the train and then complain when you told them how much longer it would take them and if they were excessed. The false destination seemed to stop that

 

[Some guy]

They do it at Watford junction the overground is advertised as a service to South Kenton to encourage people to get the express

 

[Snow1964]

Quite common in SW London

Examples include Addlestone, Frimley, Strawberry Hill

Addlestone trains continue to Weybridge (but quicker direct)
Frimley trains continue to Guildford (again quicker direct)
Strawberry Hill is on Kingston loop, on the train the destination changes between Clapham Junction and Earlsfield, and again as it becomes quicker to go via Putney to Waterloo than via Wimbledon

Stopping trains often advertised as station before when due to overtaken, eg Pokesdown, if a later faster train gets to Bournemouth first

 

[JBuchananGB]

But it can be confusing to the unwary traveller. On the one occasion I travelled to Harrogate from London I had carefully verified with my itinerary that at Leeds I must catch the xx.yy service to York. I had no idea of railway geography in that area. Jumped off the London train and went to the departure boards. Could I see the xx.yy service to York? Could I heck. How am I supposed to know that a train to a place I've never heard of (Poppleton) is going to take me to Harrogate? I forget how I worked it out, but I did catch the right train!

 

[peterblue]

But it can be confusing to the unwary traveller. On the one occasion I travelled to Harrogate from London I had carefully verified with my itinerary that at Leeds I must catch the xx.yy service to York. I had no idea of railway geography in that area. Jumped off the London train and went to the departure boards. Could I see the xx.yy service to York? Could I heck. How am I supposed to know that a train to a place I've never heard of (Poppleton) is going to take me to Harrogate? I forget how I worked it out, but I did catch the right train!

The correct destination should be specified at any intermediate station (eg Harrogate). From there, the destination should simply be Leeds/York.

Those trains in question on destination boards usually will say 'via Harrogate' at Leeds/York.

 

[skyhigh]

• The announcements and PIS at stations will say Poppleton via Harrogate at Leeds, and Burley Park via Harrogate at York. On the train, the PIS by and large says ‘Welcome aboard this Turbostar Class 170 service to Leeds/York’ (I believe that’s the correct wording give or take a few words). There by and large aren’t automated announcements on the 170s but the guard will announce it as its actual destination.

90% of 170s now have TrainFX which will show Poppleton/Burley Park on the external displays but all stops on the internal screens and announcements. When the train has departed Leeds/York the external displays amend to show the true destination.

 

[faltskog36abba]

I used to get a train from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool on a Saturday evening at 18.00 ish. Calling at Clifton [where my friends boarded], then on to Wigan north western and a reverse to Liverpool via St Helens Central. We were never questioned about the roundabout journey, And when in Liverpool the Arrivals board said Originated from Salford Central.

 

[High Dyke]

Merseyrail do similar. I was on a Wirral Line service from West Kirby on Sunday travelling into Liverpool. It was advertised as 'train to Liverpool Central' until it called at James Street. Then it became 'train to [destination], as it progressed around the city loop.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

And I think the Kings Cross-Cambridge stoppers used to be advertised as Foxton ex Kings Cross (and Finsbury Park ex Cambridge?). Do they still do this?
Are there any examples where this practice does not pertain but arguably should?

They are advertised as Cambridge/Kings Cross, as appropriate, these days. I think that advertising them as Foxton/Finsbury Park is the correct way to do it. Several times over the years I have suggested to people that they would be much quicker getting the non-stop Cambridge to Kings Cross train that leaves Cambridge 15/20 later. Most people, I think, want the fast direct train rather than one that gives a gentle ramble through the scenic delights of Hertfordshire and South Cambridgeshire.

 

[GordonT]

Edinburgh to Glasgow has quite contrasting journey times between the various routes. In the days of first generation dmus on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts service unwary pax sometimes found themselves on a 90-minute plod on a clapped out all shacks dmu via the world to Central instead of a 45 minute journey to Queen Street via Falkirk High. Especially prone to happen if the Central arrived in the shared platform at Haymarket just in front of the Queen Street. Pre-September 1965 the Centrals left from Princes Street station.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Going back to the 1970s, from the 1974/75 GBTT there was a 15.45 Euston to Glasgow which ran via Dumfries and Kilmarnock, arriving Glasgow Central at 21.58, 4 minutes later than the 16.45 from Euston. The announcement at Euston for the 15.45 was ".....Carlisle, Dumfries, Kilmarnock, going forward to Glasgow Central".

 

[Doctor Fegg]

And in the 80s there was (or so I’m told) a Paddington-Oxford-Birmingham-Worcester-Oxford-Paddington circular on Saturdays, which was advertised at New Street with a false destination of Charlbury.

More recently, until (partial) electrification, stopping Turbo services to Oxford would be advertised at Paddington as going to Radley.

 

[johntea]

As with most things on the railway it seems a bit of a random mess as to what things are advertised as!

The slow all stopper service from Leeds to Sheffield for example is specifically advertised as 'Sheffield via Barnsley' which makes sense in some ways as you don't want to board the Sheffield via Outwood but it certainly isn't the fastest service that will get you to Barnsley!

They then officially advertise the 2 completely different Knottingley routes as...Knottingley and Knottingley (my mum got caught out by that recently!)

Not that it matters that much sometimes how much you try and help the passenger, someone will still manage to end up on completely the wrong train...a good example the Leeds to Harrogate LNER service usually always manages to end up with at least a couple of tourists finding themselves headed to Bettys Tea Rooms rather than Big Ben as they've simply seen a LNER train on Platform 6 and immediately assumed it was heading to London despite the fact it says Harrogate on the side and on board plus various announcements from the guard - luckily they might be able to bail at Horsforth these days!

 

[MontyP]

Quite common in SW London

Examples include Addlestone, Frimley, Strawberry Hill

Addlestone trains continue to Weybridge (but quicker direct)
Frimley trains continue to Guildford (again quicker direct)
Strawberry Hill is on Kingston loop, on the train the destination changes between Clapham Junction and Earlsfield, and again as it becomes quicker to go via Putney to Waterloo than via Wimbledon

Stopping trains often advertised as station before when due to overtaken, eg Pokesdown, if a later faster train gets to Bournemouth first

The Waterloo circular via Wimbledon does, as you say, change destination as it goes. Clockwise, starts at Waterloo as a Strawberry Hill via Kingston service. At Wimbledon it becomes a Richmond via Kingston. And at Kingston (I think) it becomes a Waterloo via Richmond service. From Strawberry Hill, it is equally quick to go either way to Waterloo.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

And in the 80s there was (or so I’m told) a Paddington-Oxford-Birmingham-Worcester-Oxford-Paddington circular on Saturdays, which was advertised at New Street with a false destination of Charlbury.

More recently, until (partial) electrification, stopping Turbo services to Oxford would be advertised at Paddington as going to Radley.

Did that really continue right up until electrification? I had thought it had been abandoned many years before that, along with Reading terminators being labelled as to “Twyford” (even though up stoppers continued to be advertised as going to “Ealing Broadway” at stations like Reading right up until the May timetable change).

If it did survive until the truncation to Didcot Parkway, I wonder why “Radley” was deemed appropriate but “Cholsey” was not.

 

[dastocks]

In the BR era the departure indicators at Gatwick Airport showed lots of northbound services with Clapham Junction as the final stop.

 

[Crossover]

iii) Very unlikely. There might be a Routeing Guide easement to try to stop you making a circular journey the "wrong" way round, opinions differ about whether that's applicable to a direct train. If it's simply slow - no problem at all

For a ticket that is a walk up, my understanding is no negative easements are applicable where the train goes from A to B, even if it is a longer way round a circle

I believe it is one of the reasons ScotRail split the Fife Circle services at Glenrothes to work around this (going back to the days of the loco hauled service)

 

[AY1975]

Addlestone trains continue to Weybridge (but quicker direct)

As I recall they are advertised as Addlestone trains at Waterloo and at least as far as Clapham Junction, and maybe as far as Putney, Barnes or even Hounslow, but thereafter they are announced as Weybridge trains.

I would guess that in the other direction they are advertised as Brentford, Barnes or Putney trains at Weybridge, and maybe at Addlestone and Chertsey.

Frimley trains continue to Guildford (again quicker direct)

Likewise, they are advertised as Frimley trains at Waterloo and Clapham Junction, then Aldershot at least as far as Richmond, Guildford thereafter. This was certainly the case in the days of regular through trains via Frimley under BR, but these days there is only the odd peak hour through train via the Frimley line.

In the other direction I would expect them to be advertised as Richmond trains at least as far as Aldershot.

The Waterloo circular via Wimbledon does, as you say, change destination as it goes. Clockwise, starts at Waterloo as a Strawberry Hill via Kingston service. At Wimbledon it becomes a Richmond via Kingston. And at Kingston (I think) it becomes a Waterloo via Richmond service. From Strawberry Hill, it is equally quick to go either way to Waterloo.

And in the anticlockwise direction (I think) it's advertised as a Kingston service as far as Richmond, where it becomes a Wimbledon service, then at Kingston it becomes a Waterloo via Wimbledon service.

Then there is the Waterloo-Waterloo via Hounslow service. As I recall in the clockwise direction it is announced as a Hounslow via Richmond service, then at Whitton it becomes a Waterloo via Hounslow service, and in the anticlockwise direction it is announced simply as a Hounslow service as far as Barnes, then at Barnes Bridge it becomes a Richmond via Hounslow service and at Hounslow it becomes a Waterloo via Richmond service.