Evolyn to investigate cross-Channel rail services (clarified to not include Mobico)

[zwk500]

Quota'd. Not many tickets at those headline prices. We were quoted £205 STD Sgl for about 11 trains not so long ago with trains only 66% to 80% full, ended up heading to Beauvais and flew for £50.

Airline fares are.also quotas. London to Paris is popular and therefore quickly prices rise. If you are flying direct to other destinations you will find the cheaper flights simply because there's less business chasing the seats.

 

[johncrossley]

It is definitely the case that the plane will typically be cheaper than the train unless booked well in advance. It is sometimes possible to get Ryanair fares for less than £50 each way for travel in one or two weeks time. Sometimes even within a few days of travel. Whereas that is almost never possible with Eurostar. To get a sensibly priced fare almost always require at least one month advance booking.

 

[Snow1964]

The international facilities were never fitted out, so it'll cost more to open. And it's track layout means any terminating train must either work a significant length of wrong road running or continue on to St Pancras anyway. The costs are huge for missing out on the central London Market, which Euston Road still serves far better than Stratford.

To be fair, I suspect the fittings & equipment for post Brexit biometric passport requirements (which seem to be keep getting delayed) aren't in place at Ebbsfleet or Ashford either.

And from what I hear, not enough at St Pancras either to be able to handle 700-800 passengers on a train every 15 minutes.

So if going to look at another train or two each hour, going to have to do some serious fitting out at one or more of the four anyway.

 

[zwk500]

To be fair, I suspect the fittings & equipment for post Brexit biometric passport requirements (which seem to be keep getting delayed) aren't in place at Ebbsfleet or Ashford either.

And from what I hear, not enough at St Pancras either to be able to handle 700-800 passengers on a train every 15 minutes.

So if going to look at another train or two each hour, going to have to do some serious fitting out at one or more of the four anyway.

AIUI the problem is not the equipment (which needed to be able to read the biometric passports for non EU countries anyway) but the fact that now a much bigger proportion of the passengers need such checks.
Ebbsfleet and Ashford would need software updates for certain, but the equipment may still be serviceable.
The problems at St Pancras are only.in the peaks, so it's possible that if the new service is aiming at a leisure market they could negotiation access to St Pancras when there is space.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Ebbsfleet and Ashford would need software updates for certain, but the equipment may still be serviceable.

In terms of Schengen border requirements, nothing much has changed in the past 10 years or so in terms of equipment, so whatever is currently in Ebbsfleet/Ashford/Calais should be perfectly serviceable from the Schengen POV. Even if it's not, Schengen controls can be performed with mobile terminals, so it's not a major issue.

There is also the point that it's not absolutely mandatory for Schengen controls to take place within those stations. It is possible for non-juxtaposed controls, provided the train operator is willing to pay the potential fines for bringing someone in who doesn't have the right documentation. This way, you only need UK entry controls in Ebbsfleet/Ashford/Stratford, with Schengen entry controls being handled either onboard or on arrival.

 

[eldomtom2]

The international facilities were never fitted out, so it'll cost more to open. And it's track layout means any terminating train must either work a significant length of wrong road running or continue on to St Pancras anyway. The costs are huge for missing out on the central London Market, which Euston Road still serves far better than Stratford.

One potential thought is that they could do what Stratford International was built for and run on past it to a non-London station, though that would mean squeezing onto some very busy lines.

 

[zwk500]

One potential thought is that they could do what Stratford International was built for and run on past it to a non-London station, though that would mean squeezing onto some very busy lines.

There's no space in the timetable to be running international services through Camden Road. And then trying to wriggle them out onto the WCML fasts somewhere like Wembley North would be .... fun. You are also then committed onwards to the WCML or GWML until a suitable settlement where there would be a market big enough to justify terminating an international train at (e.g. Birmingham or Manchester). Oh, and you'd need to split the set down to 2x200m portions unless you invested a vast amount in platform lengthening at some stations that would be fiddly as hell to do so at. The chord to the ECML faces St Pancras, as does the engineer's connection to the MML that could in theory be upgraded. And then there'd be the passport issue to resolve, either via a 'shuffle', by installing security in Manchester, or by persuading the Home Office to back down on the risk of migrants coming in and out of the UK (good luck with that one).

(and there will be no connection between HS1 and HS2, before anybody asks)

 

[paul1609]

There's no space in the timetable to be running international services through Camden Road. And then trying to wriggle them out onto the WCML fasts somewhere like Wembley North would be .... fun. You are also then committed onwards to the WCML or GWML until a suitable settlement where there would be a market big enough to justify terminating an international train at (e.g. Birmingham or Manchester). Oh, and you'd need to split the set down to 2x200m portions unless you invested a vast amount in platform lengthening at some stations that would be fiddly as hell to do so at. The chord to the ECML faces St Pancras, as does the engineer's connection to the MML that could in theory be upgraded. And then there'd be the passport issue to resolve, either via a 'shuffle', by installing security in Manchester, or by persuading the Home Office to back down on the risk of migrants coming in and out of the UK (good luck with that one).

(and there will be no connection between HS1 and HS2, before anybody asks)

I don't think the connection from HS1 to the north London Line is signalled anymore. It appears to be secured out of use, having been singled a few years back. Theres currently no international passenger trains that could use it. The remaining 373s are too long and don't have AWS/ TPWS anymore and the 374s are UIC gauge so wouldn't fit.

 

[londonteacher]

Could Fenchurch street be remodelled to have one platform or maybe two for purely this service? C2C would have the remaining platforms still. A connection could be made around the Dagenham Dock area for access. I admit it’s possibly not a great idea!

 

[Watershed]

I don't think the connection from HS1 to the north London Line is signalled anymore. It appears to be secured out of use, having been singled a few years back.

It was (quite sensibly) built as single track but AIUI the signalling was never commissioned, the need for the link effectively having been made redundant before it was completed.

 

[30907]

Could Fenchurch street be remodelled to have one platform or maybe two for purely this service? C2C would have the remaining platforms still. A connection could be made around the Dagenham Dock area for access. I admit it’s possibly not a great idea!

Only if the C2C service can be thinned drastically

One potential thought is that they could do what Stratford International was built for and run on past it to a non-London station, though that would mean squeezing onto some very busy lines.

Post-HS2 there might be the space, but that's a fair way ahead.

The only station I can think of that might have the space to terminate the service is Birmingham International - but I'm not convinced that's ever so useful.

 

[Trainbike46]

if Mobico was using Stratford international (and I don't think it's likely they will), the least disruptive way of turning round would be to use St. Pancras station as a reversing siding, so run the train empty from Stratford to St Pancras and back; there's no shortage of platform/track capacity, it is the security side of things that is limited

 

[zwk500]

if Mobico was using Stratford international (and I don't think it's likely they will), the least disruptive way of turning round would be to use St. Pancras station as a reversing siding, so run the train empty from Stratford to St Pancras and back; there's no shortage of platform/track capacity, it is the security side of things that is limited

That would probably be the single most expensive shunt in the country given HS1's track access fees....

 

[Trainbike46]

That would probably be the single most expensive shunt in the country given HS1's track access fees....

yeah absolutely, but it would be the least disruptive to other operations

I don't expect mobico to actually start running an on-rail eurostar competitor, especially not if they can't get space at St P

Brexit has undeniably made the environment more challenging, and noone actually started a competing service, despite DB having plans at one point, when it was easier than it is now, so I don't expect one to start now or anytime soon

 

[paul1609]

if Mobico was using Stratford international (and I don't think it's likely they will), the least disruptive way of turning round would be to use St. Pancras station as a reversing siding, so run the train empty from Stratford to St Pancras and back; there's no shortage of platform/track capacity, it is the security side of things that is limited

I think the trains could actually run on to the single line connection to the north London line, reverse there. I think the line was signalled for that move but there was never an interface with the network rail system at the far end.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Tbh the far bigger problem would have been finding international paths through Herne Hill.

Route it through Catford?

If the 373s came back to South London, I would be absolutely overjoyed. Remember being a small boy shopping with my mum on Clapham High Street and having my eyes constantly focused on the bridge in case one came past.

 

[zwk500]

Route it through Catford?

If the 373s came back to South London, I would be absolutely overjoyed. Remember being a small boy shopping with my mum on Clapham High Street and having my eyes constantly focused on the bridge in case one came past.

Whichever way you do it, there'd be very tight pathing constraints through South London. International trains are not coming back to Waterloo.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Whichever way you do it, there'd be very tight pathing constraints through South London. International trains are not coming back to Waterloo.

Looks like I'm going to have to crack on in building that mid-90s South London NSE/Eurostar layout in that case

 

[FormerBritInMe]

From the above discussion it sounds like it would be easier to get the UK to join Schengen

 

[zwk500]

From the above discussion it sounds like it would be easier to get the UK to join Schengen

Given the rhetoric from the current government (not that the opposition are much better tbh), no. The capacity issues at St Pancras have solutions to them, even if it requires some cash and a bit of heads-round-tables. Actually timing a non-stop train from the Channel to St Pancras wouldn't be that hard (can't vouch for what happens on the French side but don't believe Channel-Lille would be too hard, although LGV Nord from Paris to Lille is very busy).

 

[StephenHunter]

Given the rhetoric from the current government (not that the opposition are much better tbh), no. The capacity issues at St Pancras have solutions to them, even if it requires some cash and a bit of heads-round-tables. Actually timing a non-stop train from the Channel to St Pancras wouldn't be that hard (can't vouch for what happens on the French side but don't believe Channel-Lille would be too hard, although LGV Nord from Paris to Lille is very busy).

This sort of was done in the pre-EEC days with the Night Ferry, via the use of mobile barriers at Victoria.

 

[zwk500]

This sort of was done in the pre-EEC days with the Night Ferry, via the use of mobile barriers at Victoria.

Home office regulations (and French standards tbf) have somewhat tightened since the days of the night ferry. It wouldn't be impossible to have a flexible security zone (after all, Eurostar does exactly that with Brussels, Rotterdam and Amsterdam), but you'd have to work REALLY hard to demonstrate it was appropriately tight to prevent anybody getting anywhere they shouldn't.
Passenger capacity issues should get better once the Visa-waiver systems get into full swing (they'll take a bit of time to bed in and for people to register). However I suspect it isn't coincidence that Mobico are looking at setting this up for about the same time as that should happen. It'll take that long to get approvals and paths arranged anyway.

 

[Cloud Strife]

There is a lot of talk about border security here, but it's important to note that juxtaposed controls are not obligatory for the Channel Tunnel.

This sort of was done in the pre-EEC days with the Night Ferry, via the use of mobile barriers at Victoria.

Yes, it's very easily done if the train can physically fit within the station. The only issue is that the UK fines companies rather heavily for every person who arrives without the correct documentation. Once the UK ETA is in place, it should be perfectly possible for operators to simply check travel documents and the authorisation before allowing travellers to board. The previous issue with the non-juxtaposed controls will cease to exist, because travellers will already be pre-cleared to travel to the UK.

The issue is that no operator is willing to take the financial risk right now, hence the juxtaposed controls solve the problem by passing it onto UK Border Force. But should an operator be willing to take on the risk (perhaps after the ETA begins), then it's perfectly possible to have entry controls anywhere in the country as long as the security of the train can be ensured.

Interestingly, the amount of travellers who warrant further inspection at immigration is really quite low. Among all the juxtaposed controls, there were only 1363 cases in the entirety of March 2022. 23% of those were then subsequently allowed to enter, so by my count, less than 1000 travellers didn't get to the UK.

The real problem is the simple lack of capacity. St Pancras was never designed to have such intensive controls, although a simple fix in the short term would be to relocate the French controls to the current entrance to the Eurostar ticket office/travel centre. You could then have people beyond the Schengen entry controls dealing with the UK exit controls (yes, back to front, but it shouldn't be a problem), and the ticket office/travel centre could be relocated over to the west side of The Arcade, in current retail space.

The current entrance is more than big enough to accommodate a large row of Schengen e-gates and manual controls.



Eurostar really doesn't need this huge space, and you could easily fit security controls within this area too. Arrivals should be able to go around the outside of this space in a separated corridor too.

 

[TheGrew]

Thinking out loud, how intensive is the turnaround at St Pancras? Would it be possible to reduce the waiting area to allow passengers to board the train as soon as they clear security?

 

[zwk500]

Thinking out loud, how intensive is the turnaround at St Pancras? Would it be possible to reduce the waiting area to allow passengers to board the train as soon as they clear security?

Some trains go down to about 30 minutes I think. But the problem is processing people through security, so reducing the waiting area will increase pressure on passenger capacity.

Regarding the post above about taking out the queueing area, given eurostar regularly queues out into the arcade I don't think you can say Eurostar doesn't need that space, although better use could be made of it.

 

[martin2345uk]

I don't think the connection from HS1 to the north London Line is signalled anymore. It appears to be secured out of use, having been singled a few years back. Theres currently no international passenger trains that could use it. The remaining 373s are too long and don't have AWS/ TPWS anymore and the 374s are UIC gauge so wouldn't fit.

Not that it changes your point in any way but the remaining 373s do have AWS and TPWS operational still.
No new company in their right minds would take the 373s

 

[yorksrob]

Not that it changes your point in any way but the remaining 373s do have AWS and TPWS operational still.
No new company in their right minds would take the 373s

They were very comfortable when I travelled on them.

 

[martin2345uk]

Oh they’re nice as passengers but not so great to maintain (or drive, though opinions vary greatly on that)

 

[yorksrob]

Oh they’re nice as passengers but not so great to maintain (or drive, though opinions vary greatly on that)

Quite so, but I bet they're not the only units that are a pain to run - that they are good passenger environments is a mitigating factor.

 

[30907]

Quite so, but I bet they're not the only units that are a pain to run - that they are good passenger environments is a mitigating factor.

I thought they were nice, even though the ride was weird, when they were on the ECML -but it was a shock to travel in a 373 recently when I'd got used to 374s - complicated by having to use Standard not SP .