December 2023 Timetable Change

[takno]

So tight at Gatwick Airport on the North Downs Line. Hardly a surprise given what it needs to fit in front of at Guildford though.

A 4-minute turnaround requires very good performance over the North Downs. Hopefully they will get used to it by next year's leaf fall season.

That's fine. Just reduces the amount of time they use up a platform at Redhill when they're turned around short

 

[IanXC]

I'm talking about when Northern ran stoppers from Leeds to Wigan NW via Huddersfield. And we used to catch those up all the time leading to arriving into the throat at Piccadilly very late and having to wait for a gap in Castlefield. It happened enough for it to stick deep in my memory.

I'm not sure Northern has ever run from Leeds to Wigan via Huddersfield. If you've experienced such a journey it must be many, many years ago now.

 

[175001]

I'm not sure Northern has ever run from Leeds to Wigan via Huddersfield. If you've experienced such a journey it must be many, many years ago now.

Correct. Last time there was any sort of through working was the days of a Manchester Victoria - Wakefield Westgate. Nothing NT from Leeds via Huddersfield to Vic.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not sure Northern has ever run from Leeds to Wigan via Huddersfield. If you've experienced such a journey it must be many, many years ago now.

There definitely was a stopper that ran through Huddersfield and Manchester, although I will concede it may not have terminated at Wigan. However none of this is the point, it happened and it regularly caused issues for the Liverpool via Warrington TPEs meaning delays once they reached the throat at Piccadilly.

 

[xotGD]

Waterloo has 3 trains leave at the same time twice an hour throughout the day and had done this for many years, never known it to be an issue.

But they don't all go to Huddersfield!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But they don't all go to Huddersfield!

No but two go to Woking, one fast, one slow.

 

[RailAleFan]

Hi all,

Comparison tool updated and now includes a location filter option for station queries making it easy to compare the service pattern for a specific journey...

Rail - Timetable Comparison

Side-by-side comparison of adjacent UK National Rail timetable periods by location or TOC

live-departures.info

 

[newtownmgr]

Yes it looks fairly obvious TPE have pretty poor corporate memory given how badly it went last time they had stopping trains running throughout between Leeds and Manchester in May 18.

Hull to Manchester journey times eastbound are poor in particular, 2 hours 10 and not even particularly quick between Leeds and Hull where the bulk of the demand is on that route.

Meanwhile the spread of services from Huddersfield to either Leeds or Manchester is poor because of the way the stoppers and fasts have to fit together.

As expected 16 minute dwells return at Manchester Victoria in the Newcastle trains. Only 2 x fast trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, basically what was provided in 1988.

Seeing as they are now operated by the government any reference to previous corporate memory is pointless sadly. They will do exactly what they are told to do by the DfT in order to reduce costs. This will be regardless & at the expense of any customer experience or convenience.

Obviously suits the perverted narrative of getting people off trains to force more severe cuts through.

 

[miklcct]

Waterloo has 3 trains leave at the same time twice an hour throughout the day and had done this for many years, never known it to be an issue.

Guildford has 2 trains leave at the same time (xx:34) to the same destination (Waterloo), never known it to be an issue.

 

[507020]

No but two go to Woking, one fast, one slow.

The issue with those is more that up services may simultaneously depart intermediate stations both announcing “The xx:xx SWR service to London Waterloo” making them indistinguishable.

 

[markash]

I see that in many hours there are simultaneously TPE departures from Man Pic , both going to Huddersfield. No chance of passengers boarding the wrong train whatsoever.

Unlikely as passengers would have to make an effort to go to platforms 13/14 to catch the slower train via Victoria

 

[The exile]

Unlikely as passengers would have to make an effort to go to platforms 13/14 to catch the slower train via Victoria

Unless they’re already on those platforms, of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It should just be looked at this way.

1. It *can* cause confusion
2. It's unnecessary, simply adjust the public timetable time for one of the trains one minute earlier to fix it (the working timetable can stay the same)

Dead simple. Why have something confusing when there's an easy option for not having it?

 

[Starmill]

Are XC removing some Stafford stops, then? I know they were talking about wanting to carry fewer short distance passengers.

Edit: no they're not, there's almost no change to XC's service between those stations.

Most CrossCountry services didn't call at Stafford on Sundays until about ten years ago anyway. The standard pattern was Stockport, Stoke-on-Trent, Wolverhampton.

 

[ainsworth74]

Interim Managing Director Chris Jackson has stated that all train crew will eventually sign all diversions for all the routes they sign, however they were unable to secure sufficient work to ensure this for Darlington - Eaglescliffe, so this route will be lost, replaced by this Darlington terminator.

Oh excellent, that's a diversion that I've actually seen used semi-frequently when there's disruption. Glad to see that they're going to lose it come December...

 

[Starmill]

The stations it serves aren't busy, Stone was it seems an exception but more as a convenient Parkway when it had a London service; I guess those people are now driving to another station to pick up the London service.

Stone to Birmingham was an important part of the improvements, now lost of course given connections aren't good.

Not to doubt forum wisdom, but generally railways work on the basis of connections for longer journeys.

Not for major cities like Manchester and Glasgow.

 

[PGAT]

Hi all,

Comparison tool updated and now includes a location filter option for station queries making it easy to compare the service pattern for a specific journey...

Rail - Timetable Comparison

Side-by-side comparison of adjacent UK National Rail timetable periods by location or TOC

live-departures.info

Why is Island Line still not out yet? Surely their timetable would be the easiest to update

 

[Starmill]

Why is Island Line still not out yet? Surely their timetable would be the easiest to update

It's probably just a data processing thing rather than being anything to do with how complex or not the schedules are to change.

 

[infobleep]

Hi all,

Comparison tool updated and now includes a location filter option for station queries making it easy to compare the service pattern for a specific journey...

Rail - Timetable Comparison

Side-by-side comparison of adjacent UK National Rail timetable periods by location or TOC

live-departures.info

Thanks for this.

I see there are no North Downs Line changes on a Sunday so if someone still wants a fast journey to Reading, travel then.

No doubt there will still be Sundays when people have to wait over 30 minutes for a train from Redhill to Gatwick Airport when engineering works means trains terminate at Redhill but don't connect well with GTR trains.

Unless of course that issue is done say with, by better Sunday engineering work timetabling, if that is possible.

 

[DelW]

So tight at Gatwick Airport on the North Downs Line. Hardly a surprise given what it needs to fit in front of at Guildford though.

A 4-minute turnaround requires very good performance over the North Downs. Hopefully they will get used to it by next year's leaf fall season.

That's fine. Just reduces the amount of time they use up a platform at Redhill when they're turned around short

As per @Deepgreen's campaign, the North Downs trains could save a minute or two each way at Redhill by stopping at the south end of the platform (next to the stairs and under the canopy) rather than trundling slowly up to the far north end (and back).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They already have a 4min turnaround at the moment but they get 3 minutes less to reverse at Redhill. It seems to work well enough, haven’t heard any commuting horror stories involving reliability on the line

Been using this line for decades and have to say GWR crews are top notch at swapping ends and getting setup at both Gatwick and Redhill in under 3mins when they have to. Even 3 Bridges ASC will pull off in anticipation as well unlike Southern splitter/joiners where they wait until TRTS is pushed.

 

[infobleep]

Been using this line for decades and have to say GWR crews are top notch at swapping ends and getting setup at both Gatwick and Redhill in under 3mins when they have to. Even 3 Bridges ASC will pull off in anticipation as well unlike Southern splitter/joiners where they wait until TRTS is pushed.

Aren't some of the services on the NDL, between Redhill and Gatwick Airport, driven by GTR drivers from their Southern brand or is that no longer the case? I can't remember.

Any possibility of the 4th fast service from Guildford to London Waterloo returning on Saturdays or is there still not enough demand?

 

[dunc695]

Correct. Last time there was any sort of through working was the days of a Manchester Victoria - Wakefield Westgate. Nothing NT from Leeds via Huddersfield to Vic.

There was a Blackpool - Huddersfield a few years ago via Victoria (but it didn't return to Blackpool)

The Calder Valley service is more frequent these days and two of those are the Leeds - Wigan and Leeds - Chester.

 

[louis97]

Aren't some of the services on the NDL, between Redhill and Gatwick Airport, driven by GTR drivers from their Southern brand or is that no longer the case? I can't remember.

They used to be, don't think they are anymore. I'm sure someone else can advise when that ended.

 

[175001]

There was a Blackpool - Huddersfield a few years ago via Victoria (but it didn't return to Blackpool)

The Calder Valley service is more frequent these days and two of those are the Leeds - Wigan and Leeds - Chester.

Indeed. It returned to Wigan Wallgate. That was god awful to work as a guard with long train short platform past Stalyvegas on ale trail Saturdays!

 

[DelW]

Aren't some of the services on the NDL, between Redhill and Gatwick Airport, driven by GTR drivers from their Southern brand or is that no longer the case? I can't remember.

Any possibility of the 4th fast service from Guildford to London Waterloo returning on Saturdays or is there still not enough demand?

IIRC at one time early morning and late night NDL trains were driven by Southern drivers from Redhill depot, but I think (from earlier posts) that now all start from or return to Reading, except for the last EB and first WB which are driven by a GWR driver who stays with the train in Redhill overnight. I'm not sure how guards work though.

Re Guildford services, the problem is surely not lack of demand but unwillingness of DfT / Treasury to fund more capacity. There are services all over where demand regularly exceeds capacity but nothing is done to provide the necessary uplift to the timetable because DfT want to cut expenditure. Pushing passengers off trains and into cars provides a double benefit in DfT / Treasury land, as trains are subsidised but cars produce revenue. The much trumpeted green agenda seems to have been dumped somewhere along the way.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

IIRC at one time early morning and late night NDL trains were driven by Southern drivers from Redhill depot, but I think (from earlier posts) that now all start from or return to Reading, except for the last EB and first WB which are driven by a GWR driver who stays with the train in Redhill overnight. I'm not sure how guards work though.

GWR has Redhill based conductors.

 

[Watershed]

I'm not sure how guards work though.

GWR have a guards' depot at Redhill, who work to Reading and thence to Basingstoke. I expect the reason why Southern Redhill-based drivers were used was to mirror the guards' diagrams for early/late services.

 

[infobleep]

Re Guildford services, the problem is surely not lack of demand but unwillingness of DfT / Treasury to fund more capacity. There are services all over where demand regularly exceeds capacity but nothing is done to provide the necessary uplift to the timetable because DfT want to cut expenditure. Pushing passengers off trains and into cars provides a double benefit in DfT / Treasury land, as trains are subsidised but cars produce revenue. The much trumpeted green agenda seems to have been dumped somewhere along the way.

And yet they are allowing 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport in the next timetable change.

If they won't allow additional trains then surely they would allow SWR to recast the timetable so that Guildford gets two fast trains an hour to Clapham Junction off park Monday to Saturday, to match how it is on Sundays.

The timetable needs to be recast as currently, fast trains from Guilddord at x19 and x49 cannot stop at Clapham Junction due to other trains running too closely behind them.

 

[JonathanH]

And yet they are allowing 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport in the next timetable change.

Yes, but delivered by using existing resources more effectively. The number of units required to run the current off-peak service is seven, because the Redhill stopper got slowed up as part of the 3tph plan. The number of units to run all services through to Gatwick remains seven, just a bit of extra fuel.