What were the design considerations behind the Eurostar departure lounge at St Pancras?

[ainsworth74]

I often (well, not often, but whenever I pass through) wonder what the thought was when they were planning the Eurostar lounge at St Pancras. It has always seemed entirely too small for the passenger flow it gets, which seems to have been slightly worsened by Brexit as people rock up even earlier now, but surely when they were designing the space they must have known that it would be inadequate to the numbers that would be expecting to use it?

Was it simply money talks? They could fit some extra retail units for the station by keeping the lounge to the minimum so passengers for Eurostar lost out?

 

[philg999]

I often (well, not often, but whenever I pass through) wonder what the thought was when they were planning the Eurostar lounge at St Pancras. It has always seemed entirely too small for the passenger flow it gets, which seems to have been slightly worsened by Brexit as people rock up even earlier now, but surely when they were designing the space they must have known that it would be inadequate to the numbers that would be expecting to use it?

Was it simply money talks? They could fit some extra retail units for the station by keeping the lounge to the minimum so passengers for Eurostar lost out?

Before Brexit happened, capacity in the Eurostar departure hall at St Pancras was never raised as an issue. It was clearly running at max capacity at peak times (when there were Paris, Brussels and ski train passengers all in the lounge together on a Friday night in mid december) but it just about coped. Clearly retail has taken a lot of space which could have been used as an international waiting area instead but for the first few years after construction the space provided was just enough for the demand+service. And now there are fewer services with no extra ski/Disney/Avignon specials to deal with.

 

[ainsworth74]

Before Brexit happened, capacity in the Eurostar departure hall at St Pancras was never raised as an issue. It was clearly running at max capacity at peak times (when there were Paris, Brussels and ski train passengers all in the lounge together on a Friday night in mid december) but it just about coped. Clearly retail has taken a lot of space which could have been used as an international waiting area instead but for the first few years after construction the space provided was just enough for the demand+service.

Hmm my experience, even pre-Brexit, was that it always felt quite cramped without enough capacity though admittedly I have never been a regular!

 

[Bungle965]

Before Brexit happened, capacity in the Eurostar departure hall at St Pancras was never raised as an issue. It was clearly running at max capacity at peak times (when there were Paris, Brussels and ski train passengers all in the lounge together on a Friday night in mid december) but it just about coped. Clearly retail has taken a lot of space which could have been used as an international waiting area instead but for the first few years after construction the space provided was just enough for the demand+service. And now there are fewer services with no extra ski/Disney/Avignon specials to deal with.

I would argue that before Brexit, this was still an issue obviously it has been heightened now but it was never a pleasant experience!

 

[philg999]

Hmm my experience, even pre-Brexit, was that it always felt quite cramped without enough capacity though admittedly I have never been a regular!

I agree it felt cramped with not enough capacity in the peak on a Friday night…. but certainly nothing was mentioned in public to suggest business was being constrained. (In contrast to the situation at Gare du Nord!). I remember being in the lounge from 18h45-19h15 when there was a 19h to Paris, 19h30 to Brussels, 20h to Paris and 20h30 ski train on the monitors and it was rather unpleasant but still they could process everyone, get them on the train, and not have to limit the number of seats sold (I appreciate the velaros have a higher capacity).

 

[30907]

Having used said lounge several times this year, capacity seems comfortable for a full trainload every half hour, which works reasonably if people check in no more than an hour in advance and take 10min to clear security/customs.
As ES originally proposed a 30-min cutoff for checkin this was comfortable (and of course the 373s were significantly lower capacity).
The problem will arise when 2 near-simultaneous departures occur...

 

[James H]

I do think something needs to be done in the medium term. I've left St P on Eurostar three times this year and it's always felt like a very stressful start to what should be a smooth journey.

I think the conditions at St P do significantly diminish the passenger experience, which should be one of rail's key selling points when competing with air travel.

 

[nwales58]

St Pancras was reasonably well-designed for the conditions when it opened. It simply 'flowed' passengers through to trains.

Around 2008 I was using Brussels trains quite often, which only seemed to have half the set in use in each direction at that time. I don't recall ever having to linger in the lounge except when there was disruption. My memory is of arriving at check-in 20-25 mins before departure and usually walking straight through onto the train.

The world is now different in ways that were not predictable at the time. So I would give ES credit for squeezing a lot more out of the box they are stuck with.

That the rest of the building is a commercial space rather than a transport interchange that they should have first rights over expanding into is the fault of the way Britain runs things.
[edit: 2008 not 2006]

 

[Gaelan]

I often (well, not often, but whenever I pass through) wonder what the thought was when they were planning the Eurostar lounge at St Pancras. It has always seemed entirely too small for the passenger flow it gets, which seems to have been slightly worsened by Brexit as people rock up even earlier now, but surely when they were designing the space they must have known that it would be inadequate to the numbers that would be expecting to use it?

Was it simply money talks? They could fit some extra retail units for the station by keeping the lounge to the minimum so passengers for Eurostar lost out?

Also the only terminal, of any mode, I've ever travelled through where the primary waiting area has no view of either the platform or the outside world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also the only terminal, of any mode, I've ever travelled through where the primary waiting area has no view of either the platform or the outside world.

Parts of Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester Airports don't either. 1970s airport design tended to hide the planes as if they were embarrassed about them.

 

[Gloster]

Although I haven’t been through St Pancras since before Covid (I haven’t even been off the Isle of Wight), I used to travel up to half a dozen times a year, almost always on Brussels trains. I always felt that one problem was that not enough allowance had been made for peoples’ habit of spreading their luggage around so that a lot of seats were inaccessible due to cases, etc. I suspect that people take more luggage on Eurostar than on planes (I don’t know: the last time I flew the refreshments were brought around by the tail-gunner) and design was a bit too influenced by the situation at airports.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, people like to use seats for bags or position themselves away from others when a train has boarded and departed (so the hall is temporarily quite empty) so families and groups often can't sit together.

At events when people do this (if there's no allocated seating) staff often ask people to move up to remove such gaps (and people using seats for other purposes), but I guess that isn't a policy at St Pancras.

 

[Trainbike46]

The eurostar service was less intensive than predicted before st pancras opening though - so departure lounge space may have become a problem if Eurostar had continued to grow.

Fortunately, they now have a second (smaller) lounge in part of the arrivals area, that they send people to at busy times. I was send there last time and it definitely helped with the security queues.

It may be worth considering converting the shops directly next to the departure area into a bigger waiting area, and see if they could squeeze one or two extra security lanes in there

 

[Cloud Strife]

I often (well, not often, but whenever I pass through) wonder what the thought was when they were planning the Eurostar lounge at St Pancras. It has always seemed entirely too small for the passenger flow it gets, which seems to have been slightly worsened by Brexit as people rock up even earlier now, but surely when they were designing the space they must have known that it would be inadequate to the numbers that would be expecting to use it?

Was it simply money talks? They could fit some extra retail units for the station by keeping the lounge to the minimum so passengers for Eurostar lost out?

It is a bit of a mystery to me as well. The Additional Protocol to the Sangatte Protocol (essentially the law that regulates the juxtaposed border controls) was signed in 2000 and brought into law in 2001, so the design of St Pancras should have included a large departure hall and a very small arrivals area. The customs area on arrival could have been dealt with by simply having a small area with a couple of scanners and desks, and there was certainly no need for a very large arrivals hall.

Even if the initial design work took place before 2001, it could easily have been changed during construction to take into account the fact that there were now no border controls on arrival. The only logical thing I can think of is that there was some uncertainty over whether the Sangatte Protocol would survive, and hence it was desirable to keep a large arrivals area available in case of need. Certainly, the design of the original arrivals area makes zero sense in the context of not having controls on arrival.

It may be worth considering converting the shops directly next to the departure area into a bigger waiting area, and see if they could squeeze one or two extra security lanes in there

I would argue that the best solution would be to place border controls at the current entrance to the Eurostar area. You could set up the automatic gates there as well as the manual ones for the French controls, then have a second layer behind that for the UK exit checks, ticket gates and security carried out by Eurostar. With the entire area transformed into one large departure lounge, you could configure arrivals so that they exit directly into the retail space at the...west? side of the station.

That should provide enough capacity, especially if the French entry controls have plenty of e-gates and manual controls as required. It would involve taking away the taxi drop-off entrance, but I suppose that could be retained as an entrance for Business Premier customers with access straight into the lounge with border controls. The ticket office would have to be relocated, but do they really need that much space in the era of e-ticketing? A small retail outlet would probably do.

Perhaps it would also make sense to remove one set of escalators leading to the platforms as well in the departure lounge? They don't need six escalators, three would suffice, and this would provide some more room.

The problem will arise when 2 near-simultaneous departures occur...

Maybe with what I propose above, they could divide the departure lounge into two, one for each departure?

 

[nwales58]

Less intensive then planned because the early forecasts for the tunnel in general were heroic (at least when seen by those not directly responsible).

The capacity limitations, first of the Waterloo route and later St Pancras were therefore hit later than anticipated. I was working in this field in the 1980s but not on the tunnel and now long retired so no longer have access to relevant material to quote numbers.

Planning predated open skies so the assumption was that rail would capture almost all the Paris and Brussels air markets. Regional air routes were pretty low capacity in those days and air was expensive so most regional traffic was assumed to move to the tunnel. Add the fact that much of the traffic then was business with a high value of time and not particularly price sensitive and you can see how what turned out to be optimistic forecasts seemed reasonable when the decisions were made.

I recall that as tunnel construction costs increased, increasingly optimistic forecasts showed it was still viable though that may have been the ferry traffic assumptions (basically that the ferries could not respond as Dover was capacity-limited with no obvious solutions, which was even then a bad assumption) and the single market grew lorry traffic massively.

So it was sensible at the time but we now have a horribly sub-optimal terminal (eg passport checks were often on train for a while) with the usual british commercial constraints preventing the obvious decision to expand it for the good of passengers.

It is a bit of a mystery to me as well. The Additional Protocol to the Sangatte Protocol (essentially the law that regulates the juxtaposed border controls) was signed in 2000 and brought into law in 2001, so the design of St Pancras should have included a large departure hall and a very small arrivals area.

The arrivals hall was needed for non-juxtaposed controls origins (Marne la Valée etc). The Le Touquet treaty has a 6 month cancellation term which we would always fear might be used in retaliation for something else, is my recollection.

Also a general rule is that customs always demand more than they will use because they don't foot the bill. It's hard to say no to them because they collect revenue for the government.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I often (well, not often, but whenever I pass through) wonder what the thought was when they were planning the Eurostar lounge at St Pancras. It has always seemed entirely too small for the passenger flow it gets, which seems to have been slightly worsened by Brexit as people rock up even earlier now, but surely when they were designing the space they must have known that it would be inadequate to the numbers that would be expecting to use it?

Was it simply money talks? They could fit some extra retail units for the station by keeping the lounge to the minimum so passengers for Eurostar lost out?

I suppose when they designed it in the early/mid 90s Waterloo International was still going to be used, so that would have spread some of the demand.

I do wonder why they don't check passports on arrival into the UK, which might help encourage more routes to different destinations, so that operators don't have to put customs facilities in many stations in mainland Europe.

I do wonder what it would have been like if the Southerly Approach to Waterloo/Kings Cross Low-Level was chosen instead of the present HS1 route. I imagine costs of the low level station would be so high the Eurostar would have no choice but to end at Waterloo for ever.

 

[Gaelan]

I do wonder why they don't check passports on arrival into the UK, which might help encourage more routes to different destinations, so that operators don't have to put customs facilities in many stations in mainland Europe.

It's exploiting a loophole in international law: someone on your territory must be allowed to claim asylum, but if you check passports/visas before they enter there's no such requirement.

 

[edwin_m]

It's exploiting a loophole in international law: someone on your territory must be allowed to claim asylum, but if you check passports/visas before they enter there's no such requirement.

However, that loophole would also apply to someone arriving on a plane, and it's not considered necessary for Border Force to be stationed at all airports with flights to the UK. The airlines are trusted to check documents before boarding (and sanctioned if they don't) and there's no obvious reason why Eurostar couldn't be similarly trusted.

I've also heard it said that there's a risk of someone pulling the emergency door release somewhere between the Tunnel and St Pancras, and disappearing off. But that person would also have to have valid documentation for the UK before boarding the train.

 

[Trainbike46]

However, that loophole would also apply to someone arriving on a plane, and it's not considered necessary for Border Force to be stationed at all airports with flights to the UK. The airlines are trusted to check documents before boarding (and sanctioned if they don't) and there's no obvious reason why Eurostar couldn't be similarly trusted.

I've also heard it said that there's a risk of someone pulling the emergency door release somewhere between the Tunnel and St Pancras, and disappearing off. But that person would also have to have valid documentation for the UK before boarding the train.

If you're doing proper checks already before boarding, what is the advantage of doing border checks after arrival rather than on departure?

 

[edwin_m]

If you're doing proper checks already before boarding, what is the advantage of doing border checks after arrival rather than on departure?

I'm not sure, but it seems to work for air travel (Schengen excepted). The airline pre-checks that travellers have the appropriate documentation but there is a further check by Border Force officials after entering the UK. Most other countries seem to do the same. If Eurostar did that, they'd still need segregated platforms at all their origin stations outside the UK, and baggage screening which is a separate issue, but they wouldn't need to have Border Force present.

 

[Trainbike46]

I'm not sure, but it seems to work for air travel (Schengen excepted). The airline pre-checks that travellers have the appropriate documentation but there is a further check by Border Force officials after entering the UK. Most other countries seem to do the same. If Eurostar did that, they'd still need segregated platforms at all their origin stations outside the UK, and baggage screening which is a separate issue, but they wouldn't need to have Border Force present.

Is replacing border officials at the europe station with border officials at st pancras plus eurostar employed staff at the europe station actually an improvement though?

An advantage of the current set-up is that you can just walk out at St pancras, that would disappear if you had to go through border checks on arrival. As long as there's the requirement for some checks on departure, it makes sense to just do them all to get them over with.

I suspect part of the reason airlines work differently is that they will have to do outgoing checks for many countries, whereas for eurostar it is only 1, France if going from the UK, or the UK if going from Europe. Imagine instead how many different countries border officials would be needed at Heathrow, for example, and you can see why something that is feasible for Eurostar wouldn't be feasible for airlines.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Is replacing border officials at the europe station with border officials at st pancras plus eurostar employed staff at the europe station actually an improvement though?

An advantage of the current set-up is that you can just walk out at St pancras, that would disappear if you had to go through border checks on arrival. As long as there's the requirement for some checks on departure, it makes sense to just do them all to get them over with.

I suspect part of the reason airlines work differently is that they will have to do outgoing checks for many countries, whereas for eurostar it is only 1, France if going from the UK, or the UK if going from Europe. Imagine instead how many different countries border officials would be needed at Heathrow, for example, and you can see why something that is feasible for Eurostar wouldn't be feasible for airlines.

I suppose if you were having 2 a day services to Frankfurt, Marseille, and Milan say, the amount of passengers having to get their customs checked on arrival will be pretty small compared to the bulk of the Paris/Brussels traffic.

 

[Trainbike46]

I suppose if you were having 2 a day services to Frankfurt, Marseille, and Milan say, the amount of passengers having to get their customs checked on arrival will be pretty small compared to the bulk of the Paris/Brussels traffic.

you might or might not be able to convince the home office to allow it. However, the cost for things like the facilities for the security scan etc. would likely kill it economically for only 2 services a day anyway

 

[Cloud Strife]

The arrivals hall was needed for non-juxtaposed controls origins (Marne la Valée etc). The Le Touquet treaty has a 6 month cancellation term which we would always fear might be used in retaliation for something else, is my recollection.

Also a general rule is that customs always demand more than they will use because they don't foot the bill. It's hard to say no to them because they collect revenue for the government.

Aha, of course, I completely forgot about the non-juxtaposed controls. To be honest, they could simply have told Eurostar that there would be no UK border controls on arrival to solve that problem. But yes, the various treaties being cancelled is a fair concern, but I think they could easily have designed the area to be transformed into an arrivals lounge (perhaps with the removal of some retail space) if required.

I suppose when they designed it in the early/mid 90s Waterloo International was still going to be used, so that would have spread some of the demand.

I think it was a short sighted move to shut Waterloo International, all things considered. It could have offered a lower cost alternative to St Pancras for a competing service, and it would have allowed demand to be spread across two terminals rather than just one.

I've also heard it said that there's a risk of someone pulling the emergency door release somewhere between the Tunnel and St Pancras, and disappearing off. But that person would also have to have valid documentation for the UK before boarding the train.

The thing is that having Schengen entry controls in the UK makes sense. It allows passengers to travel to potentially a wide range of Schengen destinations without undergoing additional controls, meaning that you can operate trains to places like Amsterdam with intermediate stops without any border controls on arrival.

The issue comes with Schengen->UK travel, where the sensible approach would be to have both Schengen exit controls and UK entry controls in St Pancras. There would need to be an agreement for France to readmit people denied entry into the UK, and this is the big stumbling block.

 

[jon0844]

A lower cost service would be better off using Stratford International, which is extremely unlikely but not impossible.

If we do move towards closer relations with the EU again, who knows.

 

[Thames99]

Aside from Stratford, wouldn't using Ebbsfleet or Ashford, or both, again be a solution to easing capacitiy in St Pancras? Particularly if revenue is being lost by deliberately leaving empty seats on some trains leaving London it could justify the expense of staffing these stations again. Presumably scanners and other equipment is mothballed and could be readily brought back into use.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, restarting services from Ebbsfleet and Ashford could also help.

 

[Cloud Strife]

A lower cost service would be better off using Stratford International, which is extremely unlikely but not impossible.

Would it not incur higher track access charges though?

Aside from Stratford, wouldn't using Ebbsfleet or Ashford, or both, again be a solution to easing capacitiy in St Pancras?

It would be, but I suspect that Eurostar are happy having everything centralised at St Pancras rather than having intermediate stops.

 

[Gaelan]

Semi-related: why were baggage checks deemed necessary for Eurostar? The Eurotunnel shuttle gets away without them, as do passenger services through tunnels in Switzerland and Japan.

 

[jon0844]

Wasn't this to appease the airline industry that feared the service would take away a lot of their custom?

I mean the bag checks are mostly security theatre, including the metal detectors. Does anyone ever get asked to open their bags?