Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[DDB]

So according to that list, Tavistock is reopening?

It smacks of quick write down every scheme we've even been vaguely thinking about as we need some stuff to announce in an hours time.

 

[Cestrian21]

Where does this leave Crewe station? I was under the impression that as part of HS2 it was going to be completely remodelled and resignalled. Presumably that is no longer going ahead, but isn't the existing signalling nearly life-expired?

 

[nwales58]

The Government has published a separate list here: This is a shorter list and doesn't give the same items. As far as I can see there are some items on this list not on the other list, and vice versa. So it's a little confusing.

Trying to be analytic, the transport section of the speech is bundling up everything from IRP, current and RIS3 roads programmes, NR's minor schemes, miscellaneous 'reopen your railway', bus funding through BSOG/£2 fares, various local bids for development money for new bus routes etc etc etc zzzzzzzzzz.
No *timescales* on funding so it is existing money with the promise of a bit extra (from HS2 phase 2) somewhere beyond the current committed spending horizon, so money that may never happen and will be decided by a future government in due course.

There is so much scope for presenting existing funding mechanisms as new money nowadays. What used to be routine capital grants for minor and small major schemes before 2010 became a massively reduced total amount but allocated by 'deals' which focussed less money on fewer projects to achieve more on each. With luck. Ignoring all the things that no longer were getting funded. More excitement. Less delivered overall.

Today's speech is a continuation of that. Unless you know the existing funding profile, totalling all the bids/deals/games, and compare with what is now announced, you have no idea whether this is a big yawn or anything more. The funding envelope has not been announced so the projects are almost meaningless. Virutal money released from HS2 may well replace existing capital spending plans and add nothing or little.

Ignoring the HS2 phase 2 pantomime, this might be an acceleration of NPR Widnes-Warrington-Manchester. Or maybe not. 12 billion does not go far if the Dewsbury 4-tracking budget bloat is now standard.

 

[Sentinel]

Tilt is dead (the WCML is already being reprofiled in places for 125mph non-tilt running with the 805s and 807s), but I'd expect to see 400km/h units (why slow it down when you've got less of it to gain?) but possibly of different lengths, i.e. between 250 and 300m long for better classic compatibility.

Really? Through Atherstone and Lichfield and other twists south of Rugby. Drinks and laptops will fly off tables …. And at what cant deficiency?
What is dead is intelligent engineering.

 

[WatcherZero]

£11bn Manchester tunnel part of HS2 being kept for services to Liverpool, the long version repeatedly says this would be high speed but Northern leaders could cancel it if they want to while short version of the list also says it would keep it but it would no longer be high speed rail.

Says they plan to sell off all the land acquired for HS2 phase 2 within a year (salting the earth for Labour?)

Says they will cut £6.5bn from Euston station budget by giving it to a new london housing development vehicle to deliver rather than HS2.

Many of the road schemes are stuff that was announced then cancelled as poor value for money like M60 north west quadrant or locals had already committed to fund e.g. Wigan-Bolton road.

£8.3bn for potholes (dont think thats all new money).

“Northern Transport plan” includes schemes in the South with billions diverted, such as Tavistock-Plymouth, Wellington-Cullompoton, Brenley Corner and Dawlish.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's hard to think what services could use the Leamside line if it were reopened. The issue being that any services would still hit capacity issues south of Ferryhill, so there's no new long distance services that could be added.

It could form part of the T&W Metro, though you think that would be mentioned if it that were the intention. It would be a long way to run a Metro service to reopen all of it, but if you only open as far as Fencehouses then it could work perhaps.

A Newcastle - Middlesbrough Northern service could come onto it, using the Stillington branch. That would fit with reopening Ferryhill. Such a service would be used, but it would be a lot of money spent to reopen a line to run a service that would between Teesside and Tyneside not serve anywhere very conveniently. You could have stations at:

* Washington, but not in the town centre
* Fencehouses or Shiney Row, but the settlements here are quite low density and distributed so there's no location which is all that convenient
* Belmont or Sherburn, though really Durham would be better served by having more services at its main station

You could reroute the TPE service along here but then who serves Chester-le-Street? I don't suppose CrossCountry will fancy it. And that seems no good for Durham which could go from one station to two stations 4-5 miles apart but with minimal extra services. And this wouldn't help congestion on the ECML because the TPE services would rejoin it south of Ferryhill.

I guess you could make some of these through services from Morpeth or the Metrocentre of some such in order to develop regional connections a bit more, though I doubt there is huge demand here.

It's not that enticing really.

I think the consensus in a number of previous threads is that nobody actually knows what to use it for. Reopening is purely “because it’s there” - as they say about climbing Everest…

 

[BahrainLad]

It seems that Euston will be redesigned to have only 6 platforms, which will make Phase 2 impossible to develop at a later stage. At what point does this turn into vandalism?

 

[yorksrob]

So according to that list, Tavistock is reopening?

It is mentioned on it, which is certainly good if true.

It's the credibility issue though - what's the likelihood of all this happening if DfT are still wanting their pound of flesh in terms of cuts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems that Euston will be redesigned to have only 6 platforms, which will make Phase 2 impossible to develop at a later stage. At what point does this turn into vandalism?

That's a lot of development land (with a more efficient layout you'd easily get 4 of those 6 into the classic Euston footprint at the 16-18 end) so makes sense that this is revenue generative! The whole thing shouldn't take the Euston building any further out than the other side of Cardington St, thus that's a massive parcel of land available for development.

It doesn't make P2 impossible, because 2A and 2B wouldn't add any more trains. It does make the Eastern Leg basically impossible though.

 

[nwales58]

The Euston spending is apparently saved and reallocated elsewhere.

So the new new Euston plus tunnel from Old Oak scheme managed by someone other than HS2 (and magically without DfT triple guessing everything) has *no* funding allocated. Maybe funded by property development aka housing. I recall we once had a something that thought it was a property company that did a bit of railway engineering on the side. Now how did that end?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the new new Euston plus tunnel from Old Oak scheme managed by someone other than HS2 (and magically without DfT triple guessing everything) has *no* funding allocated. Maybe funded by property development aka housing.

Have a look at Google Earth - you'd easily get 6 platforms in the space from P16 (including 16 itself which was to be given over to HS2) to the other side of Cardington St, which means a whole block to develop and sell. That's a lot of money!

 

[HSTEd]

Simple. Build a branch off NPR along the old Spen Valley route from Ravensthorpe to Low Moor. The alignment still exists as the Spen Valley Greenway and has not been built on. It even has an extant bridge over the M62.

And there is no need for a new station unless you build a new link from Interchange to Forster Square.

A single ten kilometre tunnel with a few kilometres of track at one end would allow you to go almost straight from Rochdale to the curve south of Halifax.

From the journey times it might be possible to get half an hour doing that.

 

[urbophile]

My guess is the proposed new sections of NPR (Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Piccadilly-Marsden) are dead, with existing lines upgraded instead.

How is it feasible or possible to upgrade either of the existing lines between Liverpool and Manchester?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And there is no need for a new station unless you build a new link from Interchange to Forster Square.

The way I'm reading it seems to imply that joining the two up is indeed the intention, replaced by one new station.

 

[HSTEd]

It seems that Euston will be redesigned to have only 6 platforms, which will make Phase 2 impossible to develop at a later stage. At what point does this turn into vandalism?

It makes the train planning something of a pain, but I would hesitate to say it makes it "impossible".

6 Platform termini have managed 18tph before, although there would have to be operational compromises.

 

[deltic]

A better explanation of the decision is provided in this document https://assets.publishing.service.g...work-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf which sets out how the business case for the scheme has changed

 

[WatcherZero]

A better explanation of the decision is provided in this document https://assets.publishing.service.g...work-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf which sets out how the business case for the scheme has changed

Notice they use a year old passenger numbers to help make the case worse.

 

[The Planner]

It makes the train planning something of a pain, but I would hesitate to say it makes it "impossible".

6 Platform termini have managed 18tph before, although there would have to be operational compromises.

Just a tad, nothing greater than a 16-17 minute turnaround.

Where does this leave Crewe station? I was under the impression that as part of HS2 it was going to be completely remodelled and resignalled. Presumably that is no longer going ahead, but isn't the existing signalling nearly life-expired?

De-scoped to an inch of its life I suspect. Something has to be done there, but anyone's guess as to what now.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

With regards to Euston, it will be a 6 platform station designed for current demand and no future proofing for future demand - sorry, I mean gold-plating and over-specification.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/651d64646a6955000d78b2e0/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf

29. But as with the project overall, we will be getting a grip of plans for Euston
station itself. We have spent four years on two unaffordable designs, with a
gold-plated and over-specified station. That will change.

30. We are going to strip back the project and deliver a station that works, and
that can be open and running trains as soon as possible, and which has the
leadership in place to deliver maximum value to the taxpayer. We will not
provide a tunnel between Euston and Euston Square underground station or
design features we do not need. Instead we will deliver a 6-platform station
which can accommodate the trains we will run to Birmingham and onwards
and which best supports regeneration of the local area. That is how we
properly unlock the opportunities the new station offers, while radically
reducing its costs.

 

[Howardh]

Will there be a fast-rail (as in the current Pendo's) line and station be built towards Manchester Airport as was planned on the original HS2 scheme? In the back of my mind I recall a map of a line from Liverpool to Manchester skirting Manchester Airport, could be wrong though!

Also - will Fleetwood tram/tram-train/train line to the main line now be an actual thing??

 

[RPI]

With this announcement maybe the mods will consider reopening the thread on Tavistock reopening?

 

[rich.davies]

Reopening the Gobowen to Oswestry line?? Thought NR/DfT said that, it would be too expensive, unsafe and wouldn't allow the Cambrian Heratige group to do it, as the line cuts across the busy A5 road just on the edge of Oswestry...but suddenly there's now cash for it..

 

[maxk2510]

Did anyone notice on the govt map of the new stations M6 J16? Is this going to be some sort of parkway station for Crewe/Newcastle/etc

 

[Howardh]

Did anyone notice on the govt map of the new stations M6 J16? Is this going to be some sort of parkway station for Crewe/Newcastle/etc

Ooh, a map, not seen that, can you link please?!!

 

[Snow1964]

Says they plan to sell off all the land acquired for HS2 phase 2 within a year (salting the earth for Labour?)

Thats just stupid, only speculators will buy it, everyone else will balk when they do a search that brings up Parliamentary Powers for purchase applies

 

[maxk2510]

Ooh, a map, not seen that, can you link please?!!

https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1709576175733944566?t=0JyLoW_ljOxkafJgzWTWUw&s=19

Just above Stoke and Gobowen

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

De-scoped to an inch of its life I suspect. Something has to be done there, but anyone's guess as to what now.

NR can start worrying about electrifying the line to Chester and beyond, and replacing all the signalling.
And maybe fixing the roof and canopies...

 

[maxk2510]

NR can start worrying about electrifying the line to Chester and beyond, and replacing all the signalling.
And maybe fixing the roof and canopies...

Redoubling of the line towards Stoke should've been a priority, doubt this redirected funding will go towards it

 

[Walkabout]

Did anyone notice on the govt map of the new stations M6 J16? Is this going to be some sort of parkway station for Crewe/Newcastle/etc

I don't think the red dots are all stations, they're projects. That one is covered on page 25 of the pdf: "Strategic road projects, such as the M6 Junction 15 between Manchester and Birmingham"

 

[Snow1964]

Some others

Part 30 Euston will be 6 platform

Part 57 seems to suggest some XC improvements eg Birmingham-Bristol from 2 to 3 trains per hour

Part 63 Oswestry-Gobowan to reopen

Part 74 Electrification Chippenham - Bristol Temple Meads & Bristol Parkway

Network North

A £36 billion plan to improve the transport that people use every day.

www.gov.uk