Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[LNW-GW Joint]

I just had BBC North West Tonight on. They've pointed out the HS2 link from Manchester Airport to Manchester is supposed to be used by Northern Powerhouse Rail and will be an expensive part of it. However, if it's not built as part of HS2 that means the budget for Northern Powerhouse Rail needs to increase.

That's the reason the new Liverpool-Manchester upgrade has got the £12 billion allocated to HS2.

 

[The Planner]

Stoke currently has 2tph to Birmingham and 2tph to London. All four go through Macclesfield but only two of them stop.

Three of them do, both XC and one Avanti. Both London trains would likely stop in the future.

 

[12LDA28C]

This caveat means they know they can promise whatever they like. They won't have to deliver anything.

Exactly this. It's no different from promising the world in a pre-election manifesto which is effectively what this is, in a totally transparent and desperate attempt to try to win some votes. Very few if any of the schemes described today will actually come to fruition apart from those already planned and even less if the Conservatives get booted out at the next GM.

 

[krus_aragon]

Electrify north Wales coast? Why - beyond marginals

Remember the HS2 was labelled as an England-and-Wales project, meaning that equivalent funds (Barnett consequentials) only had to be provided to Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The case for this was already flimsy enough: passengers from North Wales would have had to change trains at Crewe, or continue on a through train slowing to 110mph along the WCML. Plus some think tanks reckoned Wales as a whole would have seen a net loss due to economic rebalancing toward northern England.

With HS2 no longer reaching Crewe, this England-and-Wales status wasn't going to persuade anyone. Announcing electrification to Holyhead is the easiest way of avoiding handing over Barnett money.

To my eye, electrification is better for passengers from the North Wales Coast toward London that HS2 to Crewe would have been, as it could mean through services along the rump of HS2.

But that doesn't cover whether NWCL electrification is the best thing to spend the money on transport in Wales.

Tangentially, BBC Wales has the Conservative leader in Cardiff, Andrew R.T. Davies has said "For too long the people of north Wales have been ignored by an incompetent Labour Welsh government in Cardiff Bay - but the UK government is correcting that wrong. Under the Conservatives, north Wales is being given the attention it righty deserves."

(See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66994801)

I find that an interesting stance given the moderate amounts of money Cardiff has spent on rail infrastructure improvements in North Wales in the past decade or two, when rail infrastructure is still the responsibility of Westminster and it's budget. One might have thought that it was Westminster that was ignoring the people of north Wales in the railway context.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Meanwhile, it appears the government does not know that Manchester Metrolink already operates to Manchester Airport as the HS2 announcement included plans to extend the tram to the airport.
'The announcement read: "Nearly £4 billion to improve connectivity, which could pay for schemes such as the extension of the Manchester Metrolink to Heywood, Bolton, Wigan and Manchester Airport and bus rapid transit corridors in Manchester."

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...rnment-pledges-extend-metrolink-line-27842632

It might at least refer to connecting the metrolink to the other terminal bit, the extension planned as part of HS2.

 

[Wolfie]

Someone should do a freedom of information request for the business case analysis backing this decision.

There is an exemption covering informed political decision making (Section 35). I'm sure that a good PIT to refuse access could be written (l've done some myself)....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Meanwhile, it appears the government does not know that Manchester Metrolink already operates to Manchester Airport as the HS2 announcement included plans to extend the tram to the airport.
'The announcement read: "Nearly £4 billion to improve connectivity, which could pay for schemes such as the extension of the Manchester Metrolink to Heywood, Bolton, Wigan and Manchester Airport and bus rapid transit corridors in Manchester."

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...rnment-pledges-extend-metrolink-line-27842632

Maybe you are unaware of the long-planned onwards Metrolink extension from Manchester Airport that will take in other areas of Wythenshawe. If you stand at the current terminal end, you can see where the onwards extension will be planned to continue.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yup but lets not forget what lay at the route of those announcements. The commitment was there for those projects and even some extra funding was agreed for GWEP not once but twice but that project destroyed any faith the Torys had in the ability of NR to deliver on their promises. Yes it was a naff decision but a necessary one to shake things up. MML and Scotland and now helping to restore faith that electrication can be delivered at the budget agreed.

NR - created under the privatisation process imposed by the Tories. Utter mismanagement of their oh-so-wonderful competitive privatised network, even if parts of it lie ostensibly in the public arena, they are still under the auspices of this dire shower in government.

 

[Mogster]

Anyone who believes the 4

It's absolutely better than keeping 2A/2B but losing Euston.

Definitely. I still feel when Euston-Birmingham opens, is a success and people have the chance to use it then the pressure to continue North will be immense.

 

[krus_aragon]

See section 45,
not sure when it became Energy Coast Line

Or maybe, given that Anglesey is being marketed as Energy Island recently, this is a plan to finally build the LOOOOONG aborted idea to extend the Gaerwen-Amlwch onward to Cemaes, and thence to Valley? :P

(I say that with tongue firmly in cheek: I'm not aware of that being seriously proposed since the 19th century.)

 

[21C101]

I just had BBC North West Tonight on. They've pointed out the HS2 link from Manchester Airport to Manchester is supposed to be used by Northern Powerhouse Rail and will be an expensive part of it. However, if it's not built as part of HS2 that means the budget for Northern Powerhouse Rail needs to increase.

You are starting to understand how the game is played.

Remember Crossrail being cancelled between Maidenhead and Reading and then uncancelled when another project had paid for the electrification and station rebuild at Reading.

 

[Irascible]

Can't help thinking the value of the route land was perceived as more than the value of the railway. Hurray for long term thinking.

If 2016 taught us anything, don't make prior assumptions about the results of votes.

 

[TUC]

Maybe you are unaware of the long-planned onwards Metrolink extension from Manchester Airport that will take in other areas of Wythenshawe. If you stand at the current terminal end, you can see where the onwards extension will be planned to continue.

It still doesn't read well in demonstrating understanding of what the development actually is.

 

[nbdm]

One phrase notably and thankfully absent today was "world class".
I bet some top rail engineers wish they had not started with such a grandiose specification for HS2.
All the stations are now too large, and we are looking at a halving of the utilisation of the line (9tph rather than 18).
What use will the west-to-north curve of the delta junction, and its massive piers, see?
The rolling stock, and its maintenance, will need reviewing, with longer journey times but fewer trips.
What use are 400m platforms just for Birmingham trains? 260m trains, 10x26 cars, same length as the Pendolino would suit the WCML better.
The contractor bonanza, anticipating long-term work, is now in shreds.
Even the S&C contract, first of the railway contracts, will have to be re-negotiated as it covered Phase 1 and 2a together.
They contractors will now want to protect their returns on the Phase 1 project only.

Quite.
Similarly to the northern curves at Delta junction, what will happen to the 9km of 4-track railway on viaducts & embankments due to be built from Interchange station up to where the line was due to split off to Leeds/Handsacre?
Will this be downgraded at such a late stage to a conventional 2 track railway? The flying junction itself is likely to be removed too if the Leeds/Eastern leg is totally dead, meaning 4 tracking up to that point would be redundant.

The relevant map: https://assets.publishing.service.g...2302693be1/C223-CSI-CV-DPP-030-000008-FPD.pdf

 

[Tube driver]

A lot of headlines with little substance behind them.

he may as well said anything as it will be years before we see anything substantial happen beyond meaningless soundbites to give him something positive to campaign on come election time.

most will be delayed, scaled back or simply remain a pipe dream forevermor.

 

[squizzler]

We don’t need government money. Where is the crowdfunding page for those of us who want to contribute directly?

 

[Starmill]

They'll be the existing Avanti services but running on HS2 between Euston and Handsacre, then going onto the Trent and running as they do now.

Er, well if there are 3tph to Birmingham Curzon Street that leaves 1 per hour each for Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow. Not a chance in the world of the existing Euston station and Underground (remember that tunnel to connect with Euston Square is now scrapped) could cope with more than that. Also those Liverpool trains will be carrying nearly everyone from Chester and North Wales who currently mostly stay on their own service. Gonna be cosy from 2035 onwards.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A lot of headlines with little substance behind them.

he may as well said anything as it will be years before we see anything substantial happen beyond meaningless soundbites to give him something positive to campaign on come election time.

most will be delayed, scaled back or simply remain a pipe dream forevermore.

Which of these items will draw a response from the Labour Party, stating that they have no manifesto promises on them?

 

[Nottingham59]

I see they are promising 'an upgrade to Handsacre Junction, which will allow more trains to reach key destinations north of Birmingham". (Para 24 of the parliamentary paper).

Has anyone seen what this upgrade might be? Or is it just hot air, like the rest of the promises made today?

 

[Krokodil]

And yet road schemes such as the A1 in north Northumberland had only recently been kicked into the long grass by deferring the decision for a second or third time. They certainly gave the impression it was all but cancelled.

Because the A9 dualling has been such a success, completely on budget. Oh...

Yes the business case for it is probably lower than Cardiff to Swansea.

bet tfw not impressed. Money would have been better spent finishing the GWML electrification to Oxford, Bristol TM and Swansea and get Swindon-Gloucester -Severn Tunnel Junction done

Absolutely. I support electrifying the NWC, but I wouldn't have put it above any of your list (plus Bristol-Bromsgrove).

Hilariously it's listed as costing just £1bn.

How much did the GWML stretch to by the time that it didn't get finished?

At the very least, we need to safeguard the HS2 routes as they are planned now, as I think has happened on the Eastern leg.

Nope, all safeguarding will be gone. The land will be sold off with no restrictions regarding development.

Notice they use a year old passenger numbers to help make the case worse.

Did you expect them to do anything different?

Just a tad, nothing greater than a 16-17 minute turnaround.

Which (if I remember correctly) was the point at which the clerical staff at Euston used to be called down from head office to help get the late-running train turned around for a right-time departure. You certainly wouldn't be planning to do that on a regular basis.

Part 74 Electrification Chippenham - Bristol Temple Meads & Bristol Parkway

An announcement of a project where the trickiest work had already been done.

Personally I dont think this is an altogether bad decision.

Euston has been kept and Manchester won't be a great deal slower

Is that your takeaway from this? All of that money spent and no time saved, nor capacity released.

Definitely. I still feel when Euston-Birmingham opens, is a success and people have the chance to use it then the pressure to continue North will be immense.

By which point it will be too late because the land will have been redeveloped for high-value housing, with a share of the developer's profits no doubt going towards a political donation.

I would post what I think about this bunch in charge, but I'd end up with a ban. I can't call them clowns because that would be offensive to children's entertainers.

 

[Samzino]

Once again political tad-toshing does its bit put railway that bit further behind. Once whatever bit of hs2 is complete and running it will most likely as people have said have people pushing for an Extention. It wasn't long ago many were calling the Elizabeth Line / Crossrail too expensive and a waste and now not a single sensible soul can say that.

 

[The Planner]

I see they are promising 'an upgrade to Handsacre Junction, which will allow more trains to reach key destinations north of Birmingham". (Para 24 of the parliamentary paper).

Has anyone seen what this upgrade might be? Or is it just hot air, like the rest of the promises made today?

Not entirely sure how you would upgrade it, it is just a junction, you cannot do a lot else with it. The only thing they can mean is Colwich, but there is nothing designed apart from those words.

 

[modernrail]

I will stick my neck out here and say it [isn’t] the end of HS2. It is scrapped north of Birmingham (for now). The ESG and Diversity & Inclusion nonsense and wider waste, meaning it costs many times more to build this in the UK than other countries must end. Once we created a better framework for infrastructure delivery (yes, we are talking years) then it is my belief a later government will look at this again. Our culture is wrong. Everything needs to be reset, costs controlled, methods changed. The consultant gravy train will be replaced.

You think ESG and Diversity and Inclusion costs meaningfully inflated the budget of HS2?? I’ll whatever he is having.

Slightly more likely is the fact that they turned down the guy who built HS1 (to time and budget) from the top job because he was ‘inexperienced’ and in all their great experience told the whole supply chain the budget. They then failed to carry out any serious governance oversight because (1) as the Conservative Party have proven over and over again, they are no longer serious people and they cannot tie their own shoe laces, never mind commission and manage anything meaningful (2) There has been a different Transport Secretary every 2 minutes, none of whom have been the sort of impressive people a PM (any of the however many we have had since I got up this morning) with a quarter of brain would put in position during such an important strategic project.

They are pathetic. The only policies Sunak now announces are the scrapping of Conservative policies. Anybody who believes any of the alternate projects have been in thought through properly is smoking something. They looked at a map for anything only just blue, then they looked in the cupboard for anything they could find.

We really must stop all that crazy ESG and Diversity stuff though. It is clearly the real problem here.

 

[Herefordian]

I just had BBC North West Tonight on. They've pointed out the HS2 link from Manchester Airport to Manchester is supposed to be used by Northern Powerhouse Rail and will be an expensive part of it. However, if it's not built as part of HS2 that means the budget for Northern Powerhouse Rail needs to increase.

So in typical Conservative fashion, to try and save or better spend public money, they might end up having to spend more anyway.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You think ESG and Diversity and Inclusion costs meaningfully inflated the budget of HS2??

Trying to keep up to date at the age of 78, I was under the impression that Diversity was a dance troup.

 

[Fazaar1889]

What benefits will Euston to Curzon street provide? Will high speed trains really be reallocated from wcml? What benefits have been lost now?

 

[Peter Wilde]

With the new line of HS2 now cut back to run only London/Birmingham, and the HS2 part of Euston only having 6 platforms, it will no longer need those hugely long and fast trains. Surprising the Government hasn’t cottoned on to this yet … or have they? Can we expect a further announcement that electrification of the new line is no longer justified and affordable, and the best use of it will be as a dedicated route for heritage steam and diesel services with refurbished old Mk 2 coaches?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What benefits will Euston to Curzon street provide? Will high speed trains really be reallocated from wcml? What benefits have been lost now?

I suppose that depends on whether you think that Birmingham is England's second city.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Er, well if there are 3tph to Birmingham Curzon Street that leaves 1 per hour each for Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow. Not a chance in the world of the existing Euston station and Underground (remember that tunnel to connect with Euston Square is now scrapped) could cope with more than that. Also those Liverpool trains will be carrying nearly everyone from Chester and North Wales who currently mostly stay on their own service. Gonna be cosy from 2035 onwards.

Not sure what you're on about. All nine electric classic WCML services would move onto HS2, and if North Wales is wired then the tenth will too.

These services can already be pathed on the Trent as they already run on it.

 

[Starmill]

Just a tad, nothing greater than a 16-17 minute turnaround.

Would take 16 minutes to get 1000 people off a train and out of the station using the current entrances. Leaving a nice round zero time for people to go down to the platforms and board.

Not sure what you're on about. All nine electric classic WCML services would move onto HS2, and if North Wales is wired then the tenth will too.

Er not with six platforms they won't.