HS2 phase 2 cancellation: alternative projects which may take place

[DC1989]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...pped-and-replaced-with-other-projects.255629/

The rail minister said this morning that their network north plans are just 'ideas' and not guaranteed

 

[Arkeeos]

The rail minister said this morning that their network north plans are just 'ideas' and not guaranteed

They are all subject to business cases as per the report. And a lot of the proposals will not have good business cases.

 

[Energy]

They are all subject to business cases as per the report. And a lot of the proposals will not have good business cases.

It's effectively a list of things the government will think about. Given the terrible business cases of some of them and a PM who doesn't get public transport I'd expect the list of actually happening to be much shorter.

Hearing the government talk about moving block and digital signalling on the North WCML is amusing, almost like there was a major rail upgrade 20 years ago which tried to deliver this (among other improvements) and went insanely over budget and is why HS2 was considered....

 

[Wolfie]

The rail minister said this morning that their network north plans are just 'ideas' and not guaranteed

Hahaha

They are all subject to business cases as per the report. And a lot of the proposals will not have good business cases.

Absolutely. Jam (possibly but unlikely) tomorrow....

 

[yorksrob]

I think there's an argument for getting on with electrifying the trans pennine route (which had it been done twenty years ago would have avoided most of these arguments).

Then lets get a metro for Leeds !

 

[21C101]

I think there's an argument for getting on with electrifying the trans pennine route (which had it been done twenty years ago would have avoided most of these arguments).

Then lets get a metro for Leeds !

Longer trains too.
The end of the old heavy industries where people worked locally led to an explosion of commuting in the Northern cities which the public transport infrastructure has never really caught up with.

 

[yorksrob]

Longer trains too.
The end of the old heavy industries where people worked locally led to an explosion of commuting in the Northern cities which the public transport infrastructure has never really caught up with.

Yes absolutely.

We've had twelve carriage trains on the Southern region for a century, yet the trans-pennine route seems to be stuck at about six.

 

[Krokodil]

yet the trans-pennine route seems to be stuck at about six

Only on a good day

 

[Mat17]

Yes absolutely.

We've had twelve carriage trains on the Southern region for a century, yet the trans-pennine route seems to be stuck at about six.

This is only a recent state of affairs.

From Sprinterisation to the mid-2000s the TPE routes were almost all two car 158s, with a smattering of 3 cars. Then came the 185s with three carriages (not sure if seating capacity actually improved). Only really since Covid has there been a major attempt to provide 6 car formations, or four car formations on EMR. It's about the best it's been since the late 1980s and that's quite sobering.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BR's Trans Pennine DMUs (Class 124) were 6-car, though they didn't last very long in that form after introduction in 1960.
There were also only 8 of them.

 

[Mat17]

BR's Trans Pennine DMUs (Class 124) were 6-car, though they didn't last very long in that form after introduction in 1960.
There were also only 8 of them.

Later supplemented by class 123 sets.

 

[yorksrob]

This is only a recent state of affairs.

From Sprinterisation to the mid-2000s the TPE routes were almost all two car 158s, with a smattering of 3 cars. Then came the 185s with three carriages (not sure if seating capacity actually improved). Only really since Covid has there been a major attempt to provide 6 car formations, or four car formations on EMR. It's about the best it's been since the late 1980s and that's quite sobering.

This is true, although we seem to be going back towards three carriages again a lot of the time now !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We've had twelve carriage trains on the Southern region for a century, yet the trans-pennine route seems to be stuck at about six.

If twelve carriage trains had been the norm in Victorian times in the northern reaches of Britain, you would find platforms much longer would have been built by the railway companies to accommodate them.

 

[yorksrob]

If twelve carriage trains had been the norm in Victorian times in the northern reaches of Britain, you would find platforms much longer would have been built by the railway companies to accommodate them.

This is true, and in many cases they were. There are still many old stations up here with long, partially derelict platforms.

 

[92002]

Later supplemented by class 123 sets.

Would you believe 2xTPE 802s make 10 coaches and there is spare Nova 3s parked up too. Meanwhile some trains are running as 3 coaches.Think it's a bit of a DfT plot to put passengers off using rails and encourage road. Mmmmm

 

[ChrisC]

Yes absolutely.

We've had twelve carriage trains on the Southern region for a century, yet the trans-pennine route seems to be stuck at about six.

The situation regarding platform 17 at Leeds needs to be sorted quickly. Trains between the major cities of Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham should not be limited to only 2 carriages. I don’t think that would have ever been allowed to continue on long term basis between similar sized cities in the South East. If platform 17 can’t be sorted quickly Leeds to Nottingham trains need to be routed via Moorthorpe which was originally planned.

 

[Mat17]

Would you believe 2xTPE 802s make 10 coaches and there is spare Nova 3s parked up too. Meanwhile some trains are running as 3 coaches.Think it's a bit of a DfT plot to put passengers off using rails and encourage road. Mmmmm

It does feel that way. Yes please drive, welcome to our ULEZ zone.

 

[Mat17]

Is it true that there will still be emissions of sorts from vehicles when the next generation of these are the norm?

They'll always alter the restrictions and make the tighter. I think ULEZ and it's variants across other cities are a massive cash cow for councils.

The benefits or not of HS2 aside the public transport networks in this country are a shambles. They are trying to encourage people to use public transport on the one hand and at the same time curtail it and prune it with the other, leaving the car the easiest option, which they then charge you for using.

Does anyone know if the government (or opposition) have any joined up thinking or plans.

I bet not every penny of that money reallocated from HS2 even makes it to the alternative plans. Lots will be wasted on tons of meetings no doubt.

 

[Richardr]

The rail minister said this morning that their network north plans are just 'ideas' and not guaranteed

It is a list of items that won't be started before the next election that the Conservatives expect to lose, so they can attack the next government when many of the schemes aren't built and say "we would have".

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think ULEZ and it's variants across other cities are a massive cash cow for councils.

Niot a huge one. For anyone who drives regularly in the zone, switching to a compliant vehicle makes financial sense (doesn't have to be a new one - an 18 year old petrol car will be compliant), leaving only the occasional users to have to pay - and they won't be entering the zone often enough to pay for the cameras and enforcement staff.

 

[Energy]

I bet not every penny of that money reallocated from HS2 even makes it to the alternative plans. Lots will be wasted on tons of meetings no doubt.

The money on HS2 is not reallocated, all that happens is that HS2 doesn't contribute towards the Treasury's debt ceiling (artificial, it's how much they are comfortable borrowing). Each idea still has to be evaluated with its own business case. In other news, the Treasury is expected to spend 10% of revenue on servicing its debts... almost like index-linked loans aren't great.

For comparison Boris' restore your railway fund was a lot fairer as anyone could submit their local railway, rather than Rishi picking reopenings in marginal constituencies.

 

[MrJeeves]

Don't worry everyone. The list of projects was just an "example" put together, not what's actually happening.

HS2: announced transport projects were just ‘examples’, says minister

Documents detailing projects to be funded with savings from scrapping HS2 deleted from government website

www.theguardian.com

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Don't worry everyone. The list of projects was just an "example" put together, not what's actually happening.

HS2: announced transport projects were just ‘examples’, says minister

Documents detailing projects to be funded with savings from scrapping HS2 deleted from government website

www.theguardian.com

Quelle surprise.

Even by the standards of this bunch this is...

Rest of post removed as the vocabulary used severely contravened the forum rules on inappropriate language.

 

[squizzler]

Don't worry everyone. The list of projects was just an "example" put together, not what's actually happening.

HS2: announced transport projects were just ‘examples’, says minister

Documents detailing projects to be funded with savings from scrapping HS2 deleted from government website

www.theguardian.com

My favourite quote from the linked article comes from the shadow transport secretary:

“They can’t hide from the fact that they released a document that looked like it had been scribbled in crayon by advisers that had never left London,” she said on Twitter.

Is this the first use of “crayon” the way we use it within Westminster discourse?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From what has occurred since the announcement, the only definite rail matter is the lack of the commitment to need to provide funding to enable HS2 to proceed north of Birmingham.

With regards to the extension period of the £2.00 bus fare cap, I am sure that no political party will oppose that.

 

[MTR380A]

Sunak under fire after reviving plan for HS2 private money

Sunak under fire after reviving plan for HS2 private money

Rishi Sunak blocked a private sector-led plan to build HS2’s Euston station when he was chancellor, just three years before adopting a near-identical version la

www.thetimes.co.uk

It’s appalling that Sunak rejected the proposal and then made it like an invention of his own.

 

[squizzler]

The whole attempt to cancel HS2 north of Birmingham seems to have failed. The plan B is a bust already. There is bound to be a tsunami of litigation obliging the government to make good on its commitments to levelling up.

The next thing they will restate their commitment to phase 2 and pretend that was their plan all along.

 

[Fazaar1889]

I'm seeing a lot of buzz that London-Birmingham section needs to be redesigned following Sunak's involvement. What design changes need to be made?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The whole attempt to cancel HS2 north of Birmingham seems to have failed.

Who had the power to overturn that decision and when did this happen? That will have implications for the other projects that were supposed to come to fruition from the savings on not proceeding with the HS2 north of Birmingham, some of which was large funds to elected mayors to spend on projects under their remit, as one type of example.

 

[squizzler]

The “network north” proposals did not survive their first contact with reality. Government credibility on transport policy is in tatters. Can Sunak even hold together an increasingly fractious party?

Against this backdrop, and the likelihood that there will be a new government or prime minister soon, the temptation for departmental foot dragging, or “accidentally-on-purpose” continuing to sign contracts for HS2 work and procurement, can only grow stronger. Especially as there will probably be legal or parliamentary challenges so nothing will be final till to use are upheld or dismissed.