SBB CFF FFS considering direct trains to London.

[railfan99]

The problem is not the Swiss controls. Unless the system changes - and it won’t, not for a long time if ever - UK controls would need to take place before boarding in Basel. And that is an entirely different thing. The Swiss officials live in or next to Basel and just commute to the station like any other job. The UK ones would need to be outstationed there or rotate regularly - not easy and above all not cheap.

Why not employ and train Swiss-resident staff?

Embassies worldwide do this with locally resident staff at heaps of outposts.

That would dramatically decrease costs. They'd be efficient, suitable employees for your Border Force, with perfect English.

Where there's a will there's a way, although the St Pancras 'post security, post-immigration' congestion also has to be addressed.

 

[Austriantrain]

Why not employ and train Swiss-resident staff?

Embassies worldwide do this with locally resident staff at heaps of outposts.

That would dramatically decrease costs. They'd be efficient, suitable employees for your Border Force, with perfect English.

Where there's a will there's a way, although the St Pancras 'post security, post-immigration' congestion also has to be addressed.

Those local embassy staff are always supervised by outposted staff from the home country, and every difficult decision is run by those.

I sincerely doubt that the UK would accept Swiss staff without UK staff to supervise them.

I agree that if there was a will, a way would be found, but the UK does not have the will, otherwise they would accept checks on arrival (and indeed allow local staff to check boarding passengers on wether they can enter the UK, like at airports). Do you honestly think that in a political climate that regards every single irregular arrival as the end of the world, UK politicians would go and tell their votes that they have outsourced immigration to the Swiss, French, Spanish etc…?

The issues at St Pancras are peanuts compared to this - yes, money would need to be spent but it could be recouped from a far, far higher number of passengers than at a „one or two trains a day“-outstation, and politics are not involved.

 

[YorkRailFan]

When are OEBB putting their bid in?

I would love OEBB service to London, but it isn't going to happen in the near future, if ever, due to the issues stated up thread that SBB will face.

 

[bleeder4]

When Eurostar first started running from Amsterdam there weren't any UK officials at Amsterdam. Instead the train stopped at Lille Europe and any UK bound passengers had to disembark and go through UK security checks there, before getting back on the train. Such passengers were all seated in different coaches to the other passengers, physically segregated from non UK-bound passengers, with Eurostar staff standing in the vestibules to prevent movement between coaches. So perhaps a similar system could operate with Basel. No UK officials at Basel but instead the train will stop at a station where there are some.

 

[30907]

When Eurostar first started running from Amsterdam there weren't any UK officials at Amsterdam. Instead the train stopped at Lille Europe and any UK bound passengers had to disembark and go through UK security checks there, before getting back on the train. Such passengers were all seated in different coaches to the other passengers, physically segregated from non UK-bound passengers, with Eurostar staff standing in the vestibules to prevent movement between coaches. So perhaps a similar system could operate with Basel. No UK officials at Basel but instead the train will stop at a station where there are some.

I thought they terminated at Brussels, forming a later train, and the passengers checked in there?
The "Lille shuffle" was certainly done on the Marseille service, which was accordingly operated below capacity. So it would be possible, but it would add an hour to the journey and block half of Lille station while doing so.

 

[SocietyForFer]

I would love OEBB service to London, but it isn't going to happen in the near future, if ever, due to the issues stated up thread that SBB will face.

You could always have a night train from London to Vienna via Germany as a one way affair, then being used on the return as a night train to Lille/Calais/Paris, and a day train from Calais/Lille/Paris to London. Since low cost and regional airlines do not charge different prices for one way and return tickets, it could capture a certain segment of the market at one train per day

 

[FlyingPotato]

What stock do you think SBB would use if this did happen?

 

[YorkRailFan]

You could always have a night train from London to Vienna via Germany as a one way affair, then being used on the return as a night train to Lille/Calais/Paris, and a day train from Calais/Lille/Paris to London. Since low cost and regional airlines do not charge different prices for one way and return tickets, it could capture a certain segment of the market at one train per day

True, or I could get a sleeper direct from Paris to Vienna, but I once looked at going by train to Vienna a few years back, the price was around £1800 one way for two people, compared to £400 flying.

 

[SocietyForFer]

True, or I could get a sleeper direct from Paris to Vienna, but I once looked at going by train to Vienna a few years back, the price was around £1800 one way for two people, compared to £400 flying.

What I envisage is a sleeper train leaving St Pancras (schengenised) with stops in Germany:

London 23:30 (boarding from 22:00 since no Eurostar trains depart that late to allow people to get comfortable and start sleeping)
Strasbourg (seats only)
Stuttgart 04:30 (seats only)
Munich 06:30
Salzburg 08:00
Vienna 10:00

Can be done for around £200 to £300 maybe? The seat seats to Strasbourg and Stuttgart can be capped at £100.

There would be no published return trip due to passport controls, but maybe scheduling a night train to Calais and a day train to London St Pancras might be a solution to get the train back while making some money?

 

[rvdborgt]

True, or I could get a sleeper direct from Paris to Vienna, but I once looked at going by train to Vienna a few years back, the price was around £1800 one way for two people, compared to £400 flying.

£900 one way per person... I'd say that's unlikely. The maximum fare would be €373.75 for Eurostar Premier plus €345.20 for a Single compartment with en-suite facilities. Total €718.95, or about £626 currently.
Are you sure £1800 one way for 2 is correct?

 

[YorkRailFan]

£900 one way per person... I'd say that's unlikely. The maximum fare would be €373.75 for Eurostar Premier plus €345.20 for a Single compartment with en-suite facilities. Total €718.95, or about £626 currently.
Are you sure £1800 one way for 2 is correct?

Including a train to London for me. Plus, this was over 5 years ago, meaning that I would've had to get a TGV Lyria to Switzerland.

 

[30907]

London 23:30 (boarding from 22:00 since no Eurostar trains depart that late to allow people to get comfortable and start sleeping)
Strasbourg (seats only)
Stuttgart 04:30 (seats only)
Munich 06:30
Salzburg 08:00
Vienna 10:00

5h to Stuttgart is an hour faster than even ES/TGV, and even if the LGV/HSL were open at night, I'm not sure sleeper passengers would take to those sort of speeds

For comparison Paris/Brussels to Vienna is around 15h, though you could cut that a bit.

Including a train to London for me. Plus, this was over 5 years ago, meaning that I would've had to get a TGV Lyria to Switzerland.

For future reference, an adult 4-day Interrail plus Eurostar and sleeper supplements would work out at less than £650 return.

 

[SocietyForFer]

5h to Stuttgart is an hour faster than even ES/TGV, and even if the LGV/HSL were open at night, I'm not sure sleeper passengers would take to those sort of speeds

For comparison Paris/Brussels to Vienna is around 15h, though you could cut that a bit.

Sorry I have no idea why I wrote that time since I guessed London to Stuttgart to be seven hours (eurostar + tgv). My mistake.

I disagree that a high speed night train is unworkable as thet have been put into use in China.

 

[YorkRailFan]

For future reference, an adult 4-day Interrail plus Eurostar and sleeper supplements would work out at less than £650 return.

Didn't think of that, ending up flying.

 

[30907]

Didn't think of that, ending up flying.

I didn't know back then (the free UK option would have been very new), but it's my benchmark for UK-Europe now.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I didn't know back then (the free UK option would have been very new), but it's my benchmark for UK-Europe now.

I guess convenience was the main thing, this year I'm flying into Salzburg with Easyjet and getting a train into Vienna.

 

[popeter45]

If cleaning could be done at Stratford to free up platforms, could you up capacity at st pancras by converting one of the buildings to the side into a departures terminal connected to the international platforms by walkways kings cross or gare du Nord style and then use the existing facilities as either premium departures or non juxtaposed arrivals?

 

[RT4038]

I agree that if there was a will, a way would be found, but the UK does not have the will, otherwise they would accept checks on arrival (and indeed allow local staff to check boarding passengers on wether they can enter the UK, like at airports). Do you honestly think that in a political climate that regards every single irregular arrival as the end of the world, UK politicians would go and tell their votes that they have outsourced immigration to the Swiss, French, Spanish etc…?

The issues at St Pancras are peanuts compared to this - yes, money would need to be spent but it could be recouped from a far, far higher number of passengers than at a „one or two trains a day“-outstation, and politics are not involved.

I think checking on arrival like at airports may well be accepted [as you say, it is in airports, so why not?] (with local staff checking on eligibility before boarding, and necessary security to prevent unauthorised boarding), but not a mixed arrangement where some trains are and some not. I don't think there is enough space at St Pancras to do this currently, and checking before boarding at Paris, Brussels etc is much more convenient than big queues on arrival. So the majority wins.

 

[Snow1964]

The problem is not the Swiss controls. Unless the system changes - and it won’t, not for a long time if ever - UK controls would need to take place before boarding in Basel. And that is an entirely different thing. The Swiss officials live in or next to Basel and just commute to the station like any other job. The UK ones would need to be outstationed there or rotate regularly - not easy and above all not cheap.

Although Switzerland tends to be rather more selective on who they let in than most European countries. So those starting there are very unlikely to not meet UK border requirements.

Probably harder to meet the border requirements the other way round, going to Switzerland.

The weakness is those who are prepared to walk into Switzerland over the mountains, then get a train out.

 

[Austriantrain]

I disagree that a high speed night train is unworkable as thet have been put into use in China.

A high-speed night train adds to economic disadvantages of every night train - very high operating costs, few places to sell. It just works out economically at normal speed on selected routes - high-speed is out of reach.

Although Switzerland tends to be rather more selective on who they let in than most European countries. So those starting there are very unlikely to not meet UK border requirements.

Probably harder to meet the border requirements the other way round, going to Switzerland.

The weakness is those who are prepared to walk into Switzerland over the mountains, then get a train out.

They are selective, but they are in Schengen and do not have fool-proof border controls (nor could they, having a land border all around where it is easy to slip through. And not all of it is in the high mountains…).

 

[SocietyForFer]

A high-speed night train adds to economic disadvantages of every night train - very high operating costs, few places to sell. It just works out economically at normal speed on selected routes - high-speed is out of reach.



They are selective, but they are in Schengen and do not have fool-proof border controls (nor could they, having a land border all around where it is easy to slip through. And not all of it is in the high mountains…).

I think one of the more useful aspects of Swiss philosophy might be that you can trust their border agents to police on behalf of British agents. It could be a process of:

1. Airline style checks by Eurostar staff with document to be signed confirming the validity of travel documents
2. Customs checks by the Swiss with additional checks for validity of documents to travel to UK (and prosecutable under the fraud law) using the document signed at check-in
3. Entry checks by the British at St Pancras

The key aspect is that these are Swiss agents and not French/Belgian agents.

 

[30907]

I think one of the more useful aspects of Swiss philosophy might be that you can trust their border agents to police on behalf of British agents. It could be a process of:

1. Airline style checks by Eurostar staff with document to be signed confirming the validity of travel documents
2. Customs checks by the Swiss with additional checks for validity of documents to travel to UK (and prosecutable under the fraud law) using the document signed at check-in
3. Entry checks by the British at St Pancras

The key aspect is that these are Swiss agents and not French/Belgian agents.

But you are still doing entry checks at STP!

 

[SocietyForFer]

But you are still doing entry checks at STP!

But the Swiss could be a trusted third party.

 

[peteb]

Why not resurrect Ebbsfleet International to secure additional capacity? Sure, it'd be a tad inconvenient for SBB passengers to change there for trains into London but not as inconvenient as travelling via Lille or Paris (and changing there). If SBB were the only international operator at Ebbsfleet they could staff the facilities to correspond to their trains...?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Why not resurrect Ebbsfleet International to secure additional capacity? Sure, it'd be a tad inconvenient for SBB passengers to change there for trains into London but not as inconvenient as travelling via Lille or Paris (and changing there). If SBB were the only international operator at Ebbsfleet they could staff the facilities to correspond to their trains...?

I personally would prefer to change at Lille to get a direct train to London than change at Ebbsfleet (which a lot of people have never even heard of) and then find my own way into London.

 

[RT4038]

But the Swiss could be a trusted third party.

I don't think there is much doubt on this, as it is no different to an airline. But it means passports being checked by UK Border Force on entry at St. Pancras. I think it unlikely that there is enough space currently to do this, as all other trains do not require it and the arrivals area has recently been reduced to virtually an exit passage, to increase the departure area.

However, whether there are enough passengers to fill a train at Basel for London, I think unlikely. Presumably the trusted Swiss check-in staff are being employed, and the cost of security sealing the train and that part of the station at Basel (to prevent unauthorised access) plus the luggage screening too, all for one train a day...... ? What sort of cost is that to be spread over the tickets?

 

[SocietyForFer]

I don't think there is much doubt on this, as it is no different to an airline. But it means passports being checked by UK Border Force on entry at St. Pancras. I think it unlikely that there is enough space currently to do this, as all other trains do not require it and the arrivals area has recently been reduced to virtually an exit passage, to increase the departure area.

However, whether there are enough passengers to fill a train at Basel for London, I think unlikely. Presumably the trusted Swiss check-in staff are being employed, and the cost of security sealing the train and that part of the station at Basel (to prevent unauthorised access) plus the luggage screening too, all for one train a day...... ? What sort of cost is that to be spread over the tickets?

I agree with your first point.

I wonder if there is scope to merge the SNCF Lyria operations with Eurostar, merging the check-in and security staff in the process? They will share the same platforms after all!

 

[RT4038]

I agree with your first point.

I wonder if there is scope to merge the SNCF Lyria operations with Eurostar, merging the check-in and security staff in the process? They will share the same platforms after all!

Do SNCF Lyria operations have security sealed platforms and luggage screening? Don't think so. Indeed, do they have check-in staff either?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Do SNCF Lyria operations have security sealed platforms and luggage screening? Don't think so. Indeed, do they have check-in staff either?

No. And most (all?) Lyria trains use the main station at Basel as most continue to/from Zürich.

 

[SocietyForFer]

Do SNCF Lyria operations have security sealed platforms and luggage screening? Don't think so. Indeed, do they have check-in staff either?

I was under the impression that all international trains from Switzerland were on a special platform with security segregation due to the different customs zones and Swiss anxiety about freedom of movement.