Historical Sleeper Routes

[Magdalia]

the northbound sleeper must have arrived into Darlo at stupid o'clock in the am!

It looks as if until 3 October the northbound train detached sleeping cars at Darlington and you could stay in them until 06.45.

As for the detaching cars - were they the ones that went round the coast line?

The portion via the Coast on the down train stayed at Darlington for about 2 hours and departed there after 0700, hence the 0645 berth vacation time.

Yes....booked for haulage by a Gateshead ETH 31/4 latterly. 31 418 was a regular performer.

Yes, even though the ECML MarkI sleepers were steam heat only!

He always said it was an interesting crowd: Politicians, senior business types, the odd army/RAF officer and professionals like him - later they all just flew from Teesside or Newcastle to Heathrow!

Members of Parliament used these sleeper trains a lot. In those days the standard House of Commons sitting hours started at 1430, giving MPs time to work in the morning and have a decent lunch. Prime Ministers Questions was at 1430 on Tuesdays and Thursdays and only lasted 15 minutes. The main divisions were usually at 2200, and MPs could then get the sleeper back to their constituencies, particularly on Thursday nights.

MPs got very heated about the withdrawal of the sleeper services and Hansard from the time will have the records of the various adjournment debates where MPs discussed how important the sleeper services were to their constituencies.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Did regional railways exist in the 1960s. If not what region would have covered the service I am interested in and possibly what table number would that be shown in?

Regions as in BR Regions! Eastern, London Midland and Western being relevant in this instance - there was no National timetable back then so it would have to be pieced together across more than one Regional timetable.

Table numbers can be found in the index to stations in each TT. (Chesterfield to Derby is table 68 in the Eastern region TT, I haven't looked at the others).

 

[Ken H]

From BR timetable 78-79 table 26 mondays to Saturdays page
The Leeds sleeper is the 01:15 from KX extreme right on the snip
t - Wakefield Kirkgate - stops to set down only.

Table at the front says you access your berth from 23:30 and can stay in bed till 0800
All different on a Sat night when there are through sleepers to Bradford

 

[D6130]

Yes, even though the ECML MarkI sleepers were steam heat only!

Coincidentally at that time, IIRC, the only boiler-fitted 31s allocated to Gateshead were also ETH-fitted (i.e. class 31/4).

 

[30907]

Regions as in BR Regions! Eastern, London Midland and Western being relevant in this instance - there was no National timetable back then so it would have to be pieced together across more than one Regional timetable.

London Midland is probably your best bet pre 1975.

 

[DerekC]

thanks - were the sleeping cars in the north bound or southbound bays? Just trying to figure out the shunting plan!

My memory says southbound, because I remember thinking that they were collected by the sleeper's locomotive - but I am afraid I never stayed up to see the process.

 

[xotGD]

After the Durham coast sleeper portions ceased, the service was retained as a loco-hauled turn but without sleepers. 1N03 south in the evening, 1N04 north in the morning. Gateshead would throw anything out on it.

All of my moves on 1N04 can be found on the "Back in the Day" thread.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Penzance sleeper also had a Plymouth car until killed off by privatisation, allowing early boarding and late rising. Exeter passengers in the down direction were permitted to travel via Plymouth at no extra cost to get a longer lie in. Until the early 70s Exeter had its own car.

There were two Penzance services until the 70s - seating / sleeper via Bristol and all sleeper via the B & H. The later connected with the Isles of Scilly steamer and a favourite of PM Harold Wilson.

 

[Gloster]

The Penzance sleeper also had a Plymouth car until killed off by privatisation, allowing early boarding and late rising. Exeter passengers in the down direction were permitted to travel via Plymouth at no extra cost to get a longer lie in. Until the early 70s Exeter had its own car.

There were two Penzance services until the 70s - seating / sleeper via Bristol and all sleeper via the B & H. The later connected with the Isles of Scilly steamer and a favourite of PM Harold Wilson.

My recollection (second hand) is that they did not get it free, but had to pay for a single ticket between Exeter and Plymouth. There were reports that the withdrawal was due to the Railway Inspectorate (or whatever it was called at the time) being unhappy about the shunt being done by an 08 and the cost of providing a train loco was regarded as prohibitive.

 

[Snow1964]

My recollection (second hand) is that they did not get it free, but had to pay for a single ticket between Exeter and Plymouth. There were reports that the withdrawal was due to the Railway Inspectorate (or whatever it was called at the time) being unhappy about the shunt being done by an 08 and the cost of providing a train loco was regarded as prohibitive.

Weren't a good number of class 08 shunters not fitted with train brakes back in 1970s (although train vacuum or air or dual brakes were later fitted to those remaining). Possibly they were shunting with no brakes (except the attached loco) at the time.

 

[Gloster]

Weren't a good number of class 08 shunters not fitted with train brakes back in 1970s (although train vacuum or air or dual brakes were later fitted to those remaining). Possibly they were shunting with no brakes (except the attached loco) at the time.

I cannot remember as this was only a stray memory. However, I was referring to the withdrawal of the Plymouth coach and this was the 1990s. I have a vague feeling that the loss of the Exeter detach was due to a falling off of traffic due to the steady improvement in journey times.

 

[DarloRich]

My memory says southbound, because I remember thinking that they were collected by the sleeper's locomotive - but I am afraid I never stayed up to see the process.

makes sense - drag them out of the bay and put them behind the loco. Repeat process at Doncaster.

Assume consist was Newcastle coaches > Darlington Coaches > Doncaster coaches > Loco southbound
and Doncaster coaches > Darlington coaches > Newcastle coaches > loco northbound

Northbound must have required a shunt loco to drag the coaches into the bay. I think I recall Darlo having some 08's about that time but they may have been out based from Thornaby.

Sleepers were a near mythical beast as a youngster. I never saw one other than at Kings Cross once! They were something you heard of in far away lands

After the Durham coast sleeper portions ceased, the service was retained as a loco-hauled turn but without sleepers. 1N03 south in the evening, 1N04 north in the morning. Gateshead would throw anything out on it.

All of my moves on 1N04 can be found on the "Back in the Day" thread.

I will have a look!

 

[Taunton]

Members of Parliament used these sleeper trains a lot. In those days the standard House of Commons sitting hours started at 1430, giving MPs time to work in the morning and have a decent lunch. Prime Ministers Questions was at 1430 on Tuesdays and Thursdays and only lasted 15 minutes. The main divisions were usually at 2200, and MPs could then get the sleeper back to their constituencies, particularly on Thursday nights.

MPs got very heated about the withdrawal of the sleeper services and Hansard from the time will have the records of the various adjournment debates where MPs discussed how important the sleeper services were to their constituencies.

Nowadays things are a bit earlier in Parliament, but the same applies, if you want to see a group of MPs all together, head for the City Airport departure lounge on Thursday evenings, when you will find particularly the Scottish and NI ones there. I believe British Airways have a commercial officer (if not a team) in Parliament to manage all the bookings and last-minute alterations, and quite possibly BR used to do the same - they certainly did at the autumn party conferences where they had an information stand at each one, which in practice just did train times and reservations, and possibly even sold tickets.

MPs certainly used to all be given a first class rail season between London and their constituency, to come and go as needed; I wonder when this died out.

 

[Angusbswheeler]

makes sense - drag them out of the bay and put them behind the loco. Repeat process at Doncaster.

Assume consist was Newcastle coaches > Darlington Coaches > Doncaster coaches > Loco southbound
and Doncaster coaches > Darlington coaches > Newcastle coaches > loco northbound

Northbound must have required a shunt loco to drag the coaches into the bay. I think I recall Darlo having some 08's about that time but they may have been out based from Thornaby.

Sleepers were a near mythical beast as a youngster. I never saw one other than at Kings Cross once! They were something you heard of in far away lands

I will have a look!

Does anybody know whether there was ever a Motorail service from Darlington attached to the sleeper, even if only for a very limited time. I have a vague memory in the late 70's or early 80's, of my father indicating to the south of the Victoria Rd entrance (towards the engineer's depot) and saying something along the lines of "that's where they load the cars". In all the discussions about Motorail I've never seen it mentioned, so probably a false memory, but it would be nice to know one way or the other. Thanks

 

[DarloRich]

Does anybody know whether there was ever a Motorail service from Darlington attached to the sleeper, even if only for a very limited time. I have a vague memory in the late 70's or early 80's, of my father indicating to the south of the Victoria Rd entrance (towards the engineer's depot) and saying something along the lines of "that's where they load the cars". In all the discussions about Motorail I've never seen it mentioned, so probably a false memory, but it would be nice to know one way or the other. Thanks

I cant help I am afraid

 

[RT4038]

Does anybody know whether there was ever a Motorail service from Darlington attached to the sleeper, even if only for a very limited time. I have a vague memory in the late 70's or early 80's, of my father indicating to the south of the Victoria Rd entrance (towards the engineer's depot) and saying something along the lines of "that's where they load the cars". In all the discussions about Motorail I've never seen it mentioned, so probably a false memory, but it would be nice to know one way or the other. Thanks

Certainly not in the early 80s.

I cannot remember as this was only a stray memory. However, I was referring to the withdrawal of the Plymouth coach and this was the 1990s. I have a vague feeling that the loss of the Exeter detach was due to a falling off of traffic due to the steady improvement in journey times.

The Plymouth set out car was certainly operating around 2002. I rode it one evening and an 08 shunted it onto the main train when it arrived.

 

[Gloster]

Does anybody know whether there was ever a Motorail service from Darlington attached to the sleeper, even if only for a very limited time. I have a vague memory in the late 70's or early 80's, of my father indicating to the south of the Victoria Rd entrance (towards the engineer's depot) and saying something along the lines of "that's where they load the cars". In all the discussions about Motorail I've never seen it mentioned, so probably a false memory, but it would be nice to know one way or the other. Thanks

Nothing that I can find in my sources, which aren’t so good on the North-East, gives the slightest hint that Motorail ever had a terminal at Darlington. As there were terminals at both Newcastle and York, the latter being a very early one, could you be mixing the station up?

 

[Angusbswheeler]

Nothing that I can find in my sources, which aren’t so good on the North-East, gives the slightest hint that Motorail ever had a terminal at Darlington. As there were terminals at both Newcastle and York, the latter being a very early one, could you be mixing the station up?

Thanks, definitely Darlington but maybe remembering what he said. Maybe it was a planned service that never happened.

 

[Magdalia]

Does anybody know whether there was ever a Motorail service from Darlington attached to the sleeper, even if only for a very limited time. I have a vague memory in the late 70's or early 80's, of my father indicating to the south of the Victoria Rd entrance (towards the engineer's depot) and saying something along the lines of "that's where they load the cars". In all the discussions about Motorail I've never seen it mentioned, so probably a false memory, but it would be nice to know one way or the other. Thanks

There was a brief period, in 1970-73, when the Newcastle-Bristol and vice versa night trains, which called at Darlington, conveyed motorail traffic. But that was only from start to end, cars were not loaded or unloaded at Darlington.

 

[D6130]

There was a brief period, in 1970-73, when the Newcastle-Bristol and vice versa night trains, which called at Darlington, conveyed motorail traffic. But that was only from start to end, cars were not loaded or unloaded at Darlington.

I have a vague recollection of seeing one of the Newton-Chambers TCV double-decker covered car carrying vans parked in the siding adjacent to Darlington South box sometime in the early 1970s. I suspect that it may have been red-carded and detached from an Anglo-Scottish motorail service.

 

[Andrew1395]

Both Manchester and Liverpool sleepers were well used. Bear in mind in the 80's the last daytime train from Euston was I think 20.00 to Manchester and slightly later to Liverpool although there was a second 'overnight' train ahead of the sleeper which reached both northern cities around 02.30. Both this and the Sleeper normally spit at Stafford.

I recall that an MP for a Liverpool constituency in the late 1980s, routinely joined the Liverpool sleeper at Rugby. The train split at Stafford, with the sleeper and seating coaches for both portions joined with mail vans before going on their respective ways.

 

[Angusbswheeler]

I have a vague recollection of seeing one of the Newton-Chambers TCV double-decker covered car carrying vans parked in the siding adjacent to Darlington South box sometime in the early 1970s. I suspect that it may have been red-carded and detached from an Anglo-Scottish motorail service.

Thanks - I wonder if my Dad had seen something similar and that is what he was talking about.

 

[John Luxton]

Both Manchester and Liverpool sleepers were well used. Bear in mind in the 80's the last daytime train from Euston was I think 20.00 to Manchester and slightly later to Liverpool although there was a second 'overnight' train ahead of the sleeper which reached both northern cities around 02.30. Both this and the Sleeper normally spit at Stafford.

I used the Liverpool sleeper on three runs to Euston - Summer 78, April 79 and Summer 79 to kick start rover tickets. On the three trips I made it was impossible to sleep. I recall it stopping quite a lot and I am sure there were plenty of vans attached with noisy people out on the platform. Then at Euston it was shunted out of the way to where other inbound sleepers were assembled to allow a later disembarkation, plenty of jerking around.

Wasn't a great experience. Did travel on quite a few other sleepers when I had those tickets and found the experience much better.

 

[KeithMcC]

I used to sometimes use the Sunderland sleeper when I was at College in London in the late 70s and feeling prosperous enough. In the early days of the student railcard they weren't valid out of Kings + until after 19.00 on Fridays, and the 19.00 was the last train with a connection to Sunderland. So the options were the sleeper (which got in sometime after 8am, or the seated Edinburgh overnight to Newcastle and then waiting in the platform 9 all night buffet until the first Sunderland train.
The sleeper was more restful but cost rather more! One cold night I attempted to get off at Newcastle to find the droplight frozen which made opening the door a bit difficult, luckily someone on the platform saw my problem before the train set off for Scotland!

 

[JayWelsh2023]

Hi all - this is my first post here!

Does anyone know if there were ever any sleeper services on the island of Ireland? Or, by extension, any that were within the borders of Wales/Scotland?

I'm quite surprised there isn't a Belfast - Cork/Galway route today in Ireland as a sleeper.

 

[RT4038]

Hi all - this is my first post here!

Does anyone know if there were ever any sleeper services on the island of Ireland? Or, by extension, any that were within the borders of Wales/Scotland?

I'm quite surprised there isn't a Belfast - Cork/Galway route today in Ireland as a sleeper.

There was a Glasgow and Edinburgh (separate portions joined at Perth) - Inverness Scottish internal sleeper.

No, never any sleeping cars in Ireland - the journeys with any numbers of passengers are simply not long enough. Can't imagine significant numbers of passengers for cross border sleeping trains in Ireland.

 

[30907]

There was a Glasgow and Edinburgh (separate portions joined at Perth) - Inverness Scottish internal sleeper.

And for completeness: for a couple of years in the mid 80s a Mk3 sleeper ran Glasgow-Aberdeen, returning empty during the day.
Details in this lengthy thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scottish-sleeper-early-1980s.232624/

BTW welcome aboard, JayWelsh2023.

 

[181]

Does anyone know if there were ever any sleeper services on the island of Ireland?

No, never any sleeping cars in Ireland - the journeys with any numbers of passengers are simply not long enough.

Not quite never, if my source is correct. 'A Regional history of railways, volume 16: Ireland' (J. W. P. Rowledge, 1995), describing the Dublin-Cork main line, says 'During the winter of 1879-80 a sleeping car was included in the Up Night Mail which did not last; in fact there was only one other attempt in Ireland to provide this facility, on the GNR [Great Northern]'.

 

[D6130]

No, never any sleeping cars in Ireland

I realise that this is not exactly what the OP was looking for....but did the Belmond Grand Hibernian luxury land cruise train - which ran in Ireland a few years ago - not include sleeping cars, although possibly only for the staff?

 

[AY1975]

Yes, even though the ECML Mark I sleepers were steam heat only!

In which case sleeping car passengers on those trains in the winter can't have been very happy when the adjustable air vents above the berth (or above the door in 2nd class compartments) started blowing cold air on them when an ETH Class 31 was attached!

No, never any sleeping cars in Ireland - the journeys with any numbers of passengers are simply not long enough.

AFAIK there were never any Welsh internal sleeper trains either for that same reason, although I seem to recall that one of the previous Wales & Borders franchisees (can't remember which one) considered introducing a Cardiff-Holyhead sleeper. Not sure if the market for such a service would have been sufficient for it to be viable, though, and it would have had to go into England and then back into Wales just as the existing Cardiff-Holyhead trains do.