GWML / Elizabeth line disruption due to OLE down near Paddington

[AJD]

What’s the definition of ‘secure’?

Some TOCs will state this is removing the drivers key.

For use of company mobile within permitted reasons, it's DRA set, brakes in full service, master switch to neutral and out of drivers seat. We've had mobile devices (iPad) in the cab for at least seven years, so the policy was rewritten to allow for their (limited) use.

 

[AdamWW]

That will vary from train to to train, unit to unit, depending on how good the batteries are.

Of course.

But I think it's not unreasonable for passengers to expect assistance in that timescale, variable as it is.

I think this point of the lack of communication to stranded passengers, particularly when there are workers on the track walking by with no seeming attempts of communication to passengers dose not help at all and only increases the likelihood of passengers making their own way out.

I was thinking that. But how do people at trackside communicate with someone in a train with sealed windows? Opening a door is likely to lead to people getting out.

Holding up a sign on a stick to the windows maybe?

 

[43096]

I was thinking that. But how do people at trackside communicate with someone in a train with sealed windows? Opening a door is likely to lead to people getting out.

Holding up a sign on a stick to the windows maybe?

How about finding the driver or guard, and either briefing them or agreeing they can get on and walk through to tell people.

 

[FGW_DID]

It seems to me a cost saving pennie pinching in the total costs of the GWML electrification in relation to the total costs has created less operational resilience.

In particular being able to remotely and safely isolate smaller sections of route seems to be an issue whenever problems require OHLE to be isolated.

I was at Reading a few months back when the OHLE was isolated Maidenhead to Didcot/ Thatcham I believe due to a problem at Cholsey. This caused no trains on ELl beyond Maidenhead and no trains to Newbury as well.

Seems very short sighted not to have paid for a few more sections that could be safely isolated.

As a question is it possible to remotely isolate the fast lines separately to the reliefs?

Yep, that was the tree on fire after it came into contact with the OLE. As I mentioned way back up thread in response to a similar question, everything was switched off as its easier to hit the big off switch first then work your backwards and re-energise sections once you know the extent of the incident and which sections are affected / unaffected.

Yes it is possible to isolate reliefs / mains separately.

 

[TrainGeekUK]

A friend was texting me saying it’s quite cosy on the Elizabeth line this evening through the core given the Central line is out of action between White City and Liverpool Street.

I can’t see a station closed though following the incident below.

Central Line: No service between White City and Liverpool Street and SEVERE DELAYS on the rest of the line while emergency services deal with a casualty on the track. Tickets are being accepted on London Buses and the Elizabeth line.

 

[Purple Train]

Have it on good authority the train departed Paddington with the wrong pan raised, was attempted to change over on the move. This should only take place stationary (or at low speed in certain special situations when authorised)

Oh, my apologies.

Also, apologies for the rather stupid question, but are the effects of a "wrong" pantograph raised sufficient to cause dewirement issues due to the wind being channeled along the roof at 125mph? (As in, would it be a safety issue if the train departed for a high-speed run with the "backwards" pantograph raised?)

 

[800001]

My understanding from the night is the 1C28 collided with OHL that was already damaged, this smashed the windscreen of the train and also wrapped the wires around the train.

 

[Bonus55]

I'm surprised that there isn't a neutral section that separates the core and reversing sidings from the rest of the GWML.

They are electrically separated and controlled by MTR Crossrail, though I don't know how the interface with NR works I'm afraid.

 

[Sleepy]

Oh, my apologies.

Also, apologies for the rather stupid question, but are the effects of a "wrong" pantograph raised sufficient to cause dewirement issues due to the wind being channeled along the roof at 125mph? (As in, would it be a safety issue if the train departed for a high-speed run with the "backwards" pantograph raised?)

I think it was more a case of trying to changeover to the front pan on the move that may have caused the dewirement.

 

[Bonus55]

Also this isnt third rail so you dont need overheads off to do an evacuation but they were already off as a result of the incident.

You are correct in that the section tripped, but the OLE is under tremendous mechanical tension so even if eletrically safe, it still needs making mechanically safe.

It seems to me a cost saving pennie pinching in the total costs of the GWML electrification in relation to the total costs has created less operational resilience.

In particular being able to remotely and safely isolate smaller sections of route seems to be an issue whenever problems require OHLE to be isolated.

I was at Reading a few months back when the OHLE was isolated Maidenhead to Didcot/ Thatcham I believe due to a problem at Cholsey. This caused no trains on ELl beyond Maidenhead and no trains to Newbury as well.

Seems very short sighted not to have paid for a few more sections that could be safely isolated.

As a question is it possible to remotely isolate the fast lines separately to the reliefs?

Can you remember what date this was? It's likely this was a result of an existing issue combined with an incident creating a double whammy of sorts. If you can narrow down the date I might be able to clarify.

But some of the lack of resilience should be somewhat negated when Holly Cross ATFS comes online next year to provide alternative feeding arrangements via Reading.

Info here: https://www.enable-infrastructure.com/landmark-progress-on-the-reading-independent-feeder-project-2/

 

[vikingdriver]

Incorrect. Rules are rules and must be followed at all times. There’s no exceptions. You use a mobile phone in the cab and you risk a disdisciplinary

This must be a TOC specific thing then. Our driving policy (for a TOC) permits the use of personal devices with the master switch off or in neutral in certain circumstances.

 

[sp503]

This must be a TOC specific thing then. Our driving policy (for a TOC) permits the use of personal devices with the master switch off or in neutral in certain circumstances.

I wonder which TOC his is, and kudos to them doing such a good job getting across the rigidity of the policy to the extent that even in the most extreme of circumstances such as a Bond villain blowing half of his train up behind him, the driver still cannot use his cellphone…

 

[Horizon22]

Not permitted to be used in the cab. Some companies will state that you can’t use them on the platform if you have a key in the desk!

Simply untrue. Drivers started using them when the GSMR died.

Perhaps every control room needs a massive countdown style clock!
It will come to the point were trains are evacuated quickly and then 10 minutes later, normal running will be possible then the control staff get crucified on here for 'overreacting'!

There are incident clocks that exist in a number of control rooms. Whether it would have many any difference is doubtful, considering the trains were known to be stranded with re-energisation unlikely within 30 minutes.

 

[DanNCL]

Incorrect. Rules are rules and must be followed at all times. There’s no exceptions. You use a mobile phone in the cab and you risk a disciplinary.

If a driver is seriously given a disciplinary for using their mobile phone to contact their control when they’re stranded without power and any other means of communication then something is seriously wrong with how the whole process works.
There are a very limited set of circumstances where disregarding the rules is appropriate and that is one of them. And one would expect any reasonable manager when presented with those as the facts behind what is technically a rule break would take no action against the driver.

 

[Horizon22]

Not good for an above ground problem on a brand new state of the art £13 BN railway on a strike day when fewer trains were running. Just imagine the chaos if it had happened on older infrastructure / trains.

I hope less able passengers who were unable to climb down from trains or walk along the track were taken care of.

It did happen on ‘older infrastructure’.

 

[vikingdriver]

I wonder which TOC his is, and kudos to them doing such a good job getting across the rigidity of the policy to the extent that even in the most extreme of circumstances such as a Bond villain blowing half of his train up behind him, the driver still cannot use his cellphone…

Yet in a siding I could pop on here whilst sat in my cab on the non driving side.

 

[Horizon22]

Incorrect. Rules are rules and must be followed at all times. There’s no exceptions. You use a mobile phone in the cab and you risk a disciplinary.

Again ridiculous. None of the drivers who used their mobile phones are risking a disciplinary.

 

[baza585]

To try and imply that a non union driver was responsible for this incident when at this stage no-one knows why the wires came down is quite frankly poor form from Aslef.

Agreed. I don't work in the rail industry but commute long distance so am naturally a supporter of the industry. However I think ASLEF should let the facts speak for themselves when they emerge and not before.

"Clever dick" PR stunts like this will do their member's cause a real disservice. If I were an ASLEF member (I am a member of a TUC affiliated TU) I would be feeding that back via my reps. My opinion I accept.

 

[ijmad]

My friend was stuck on the train with Haines and had a long conversation with him. She said he said (and this is very much third hand information) than the Westbourne Park reversing sidings were shut because there were passengers on the GWML tracks who had self detrained, so they were concerned about the risk of someone being hit, particularly with auto reverse being used. This is why the Elizabeth Line COS suffered so badly

No idea if this is the truth or a game of telegram that's garbled the reality.

 

[physics34]

I believe so, I also believe some started self evacuating after an hour.
You could also look at it as the only trains where passengers self evacuated were DOO services.

This is becoming a regular thing.... a broken down train

Under no circumstances, are you allowed to use a mobile phone in the driving cab of a train so the ability to relay information to the driver of a DOO service is pretty much nil.
The only real line of communication a driver has is with the controlling signaller via the GSMR…. and in situations like this they will be totally snowed under.

Incorrect. The signalman will take your mobile phone number if there is a danger of the unit running out of batteries/radio goes dead. There are instances that if theres been a loss of power, the driver might have to turn the unit off (aux off) to preserve batteries.

 

[Horizon22]

My friend was stuck on the train with Haines and had a long conversation with him. She said he said (and this is very much third hand information) than the Westbourne Park reversing sidings were shut because there were passengers on the GWML tracks who had self detrained, so they were concerned about the risk of someone being hit, particularly with auto reverse being used. This is why the Elizabeth Line COS suffered so badly

No idea if this is the truth or a game of telegram that's garbled the reality.

There’s some part truth to that but more important was one of the Elizabeth line trains was literally just outside the RfLI/NR boundary so was in the overlapping affected area. Access to Westbourne Park sidings and GWR’s (North Pole) and Elizabeth line’s (Old Oak Conmon) depots was also blocked.

 

[physics34]

I believe that because of 'regs', the egress green handles are now like a 'pull me' sign to impatient passengers. Not having toliets doesnt help... there was criticism of this when the 345s were ordered. It wouldve been likely anyway that the loos wouldve been out of order anyway with any loss of power though. Thats another issue that needs to be sorted (toilet use when train has no power). The 376s and 707s pathetically dont have toilets too. The 376s involved in a similar evacuation problem at lewisham one friday night before xmas.

 

[Samzino]

Doesn't the rulebook itself allow mobile phone use under certain conditions like that of Yesterday? And by mobile phone use I mean to contact control or the signaler to let them know you've had to switch on your phone due to losing Auxiliary power. The again I'd assume the lineside telephones (if any) would be brought up.

 

[physics34]

Doesn't the rulebook itself allow mobile phone use under certain conditions like that of Yesterday? And by mobile phone use I mean to contact control or the signaler to let them know you've had to switch on your phone due to losing Auxiliary power. The again I'd assume the lineside telephones (if any) would be brought up.

Lineside phones are starting to be phased out

 

[Starmill]

That will vary from train to to train, unit to unit, depending on how good the batteries are.

Everything will vary. If the train isn't fitted with toilets, the time is much shorter than if the train is fitted with toilets and a battery which will provide auxiliary power to them for several hours.

I believe that because of 'regs', the egress green handles are now like a 'pull me' sign to impatient passengers. Not having toliets doesnt help... there was criticism of this when the 345s were ordered. It wouldve been likely anyway that the loos wouldve been out of order anyway with any loss of power though. Thats another issue that needs to be sorted (toilet use when train has no power). The 376s and 707s pathetically dont have toilets too. The 376s involved in a similar evacuation problem at lewisham one friday night before xmas.

There aren't many pure EMUs where the toilets and heating / air conditioning will continue to work with the power supply disconnected. 801 (though maybe doesn't fit the definition of pure EMU!) 803s perhaps can, and a handful of others maybe?

 

[Samzino]

Lineside phones are starting to be phased out

Ah yes I remember now someone mentioning this.

 

[800001]

Doesn't the rulebook itself allow mobile phone use under certain conditions like that of Yesterday? And by mobile phone use I mean to contact control or the signaler to let them know you've had to switch on your phone due to losing Auxiliary power. The again I'd assume the lineside telephones (if any) would be brought up.

Exactly this, I’ve had many a phone call with a driver when there train is at at stand, only to be turned on when there is a need for them to be able to be contacted by control, by maintenance engineers etc.

 

[VP185]

Again ridiculous. None of the drivers who used their mobile phones are risking a disciplinary.

Our company policy on mobile devices is quite clear. Other TOCs may be different.
Do you have access to my companies mobile device policy?

 

[Desirolly]

How did the evacuations work? With so many people were passengers sort of sheparded by the members of staff on site back to Paddington? From images online it looked like there were people everywhere.

 

[Samzino]

Exactly this, I’ve had many a phone call with a driver when there train is at at stand, only to be turned on when there is a need for them to be able to be contacted by control, by maintenance engineers etc.

I thought so as I'd assume not using such a resource where desperately needed would be counter to the very Safety you'd be expected to preserve.