Lines That Should Exist

[Elybob]

Network Rail has just awarded you a 5 billion pound contract and want you to build a new line wherever you want.

I will kick things off by building a "cross-Hertfordshire", running Rickmansworth-Watford-St Albans-Hatfield-Hoddesdon-Harlow. This line would use some existing lines (Ie the Abbey and Metropolitan) and would hopefully relieve the horrendous traffic in these towns, meanwhile connecting the WCML, MML and ECML

What would you do?

 

[Magdalia]

Get on with building East West Rail between Cambridge and Bedford.

 

[daodao]

Get on with building East West Rail between Cambridge and Bedford.

What an utter waste of money, given the places served are relatively small compared to the major cities in the North of England.

I would build a new tunnel under the Pennines to provide a faster more direct rail route from Manchester to Sheffield.

 

[Topological]

HS* tunnel into Manchester to relieve Stockport capacity constraints (be even better as part of a longer route, but £5bn is not going to buy that).

If there is a bit of change left over then something to allow CLC trains to enter the tunnel and avoid Castlefield such that Liverpool could have a faster link into (and back out of) Manchester for trains going East.

Alternatively:

A new Swansea East station in the docks area facing Cardiff. Ideally with a new bridge over the River Neath to speed up connection to the main line. Associated changes to create metros on the existing main line into High Street and up to Glynneath and into Cardiff via Hirawun. Could produce a quite extensive network for £5bn.

 

[Magdalia]

I would build a new tunnel under the Pennines to provide a faster more direct rail route from Manchester to Sheffield.

I'm not an engineer but I think that would cost a lot more than £5bn, and for marginal economic benefit. That is literally burying money in a hole in the ground.

What an utter waste of money, given the places served are relatively small compared to the major cities in the North of England.

Current size doesn't matter. What is important is the opportunity for economic growth and the tax revenue it generates. East West Rail will deliver benefits greater than the costs through economic growth. Cambridge, Bedford and the places in between will be much bigger in 50 years time than they are now, but it helps if the infrastructure comes first. Nowhere else in the UK offers the same economic growth opportunity.

 

[rf_ioliver]

5 billion...I'd come up with a report by carefully selected consultants about how railways a necessary. Get life peerage from Tory politician...done.

But seriously, repair of the Welsh network - Beddau-Llantrisant, Cardiff-Creigau-Rhiwsaeson-Llantrisant, Coryton branch to Radyr, Hirwaun and around down the Neath Valleys, Swansea District Line, Abertillery and towarsd nant-y-glo, Sirhowy Valley, Caerffili-Newport, Caernarfon-Bangor (and then down to Porthmadoc), Amlwch branch, Oswestry branch
...then of course, Carmarthen-Aberytstwyth with a branch to Newcastle Emlyn and Aberteifi (I think that was costed at around 1bn, so the above should come in at under 5bn)

 

[A S Leib]

I will kick things off by building a "cross-Hertfordshire", running Rickmansworth-Watford-St Albans-Hatfield-Hoddesdon-Harlow. This line would use some existing lines (Ie the Abbey and Metropolitan) and would hopefully relieve the horrendous traffic in these towns, meanwhile connecting the WCML, MML and ECML

If there's any money spare I'd add Boxmoor – Hemel Hempstead town centre – St. Albans in as well.

There's plenty of things which I'd like to do, although I don't know how many would fall under £5 bn – I might be significantly under / overestimating costs (and some of these aren't strictly new lines):

• Quadruple-track Coventry–Birmingham New Street and double-track Coventry–Leamington Spa
• Connect Birmingham Curzon Street to between Bromsgrove and Worcestershire Parkway (could be a line which goes unused for years, but having the ability to run faster Manchester – south west services would be nice)
• Trams or, if the budget allows, metros for Leeds and Bristol at the very least
• Spending money to sort out particularly congested spots e.g. Ely and Castlefield
• A new line between Doncaster and Sheffield and sorting out Dore & Totley
• Something to connect the outer ends of the Welsh Valley lines, and possibly Abergavenny
• A southern orbital West Midlands link from Wolverhampton to Birmingham International via Dudley, Halesowen and Solihull

 

[NoRoute]

Build some sections of infill track to provide a rail service along the M1 motorway corridor. Euston to Leeds stopping at every major city and town along the route.

It's absolutely crazy that in 2023 there isn't a competitive, direct rail service along one of the UK's most significant arterial transport routes.

 

[Arkeeos]

5bil isn't really enough for a major new line, so something like a high speed line, or orbital London railway isn't an option and I don't think something like a Manchester tunnel or Heathrow south/west access counts as a new rail line. Given that I think my choice would Leicester to Rugby.

 

[Rail Quest]

With five billion, I'd go with a load of extensions to existing lines perhaps to cover places insufficiently served by rail. Examples could include things like extending the Merseyrail to Skelmersdale.

 

[HSTEd]

£5bn might allow you to redevelop the railway system in central Manchester as I previously discussed on the Ordsall Chord thread.

Although that project might not be achievable with £5bn!

Either that or a base tunnel in the Pennines that would cut half an hour off the Leeds-Manchester and allows the line Manchester-Marsden to become a second Glossop line.

 

[Elecman]

Complete HS2 phase 2a to Crewe any left over (circa £1B sort out the Wolverhampton corridor

 

[lachlan]

For a new line specifically (as opposed to new stations) I'd build a new line from Perth to Edinburgh via Kinross and Dunfermline to provide a faster route for Inverness trains and to improve connections at Dunfermline while connecting Kinross.

I'd also build a new fast line from Dundee to Laurencekirk via Forfar and Brechin

 

[deltic08]

Where do I start?
Definitely a more direct line from South Wales and Bristol to Bournemouth and Southampton without having to divert all the way around via Reading or endless trailing through Bath, Trowbridge, Westbury, Salibury etc.
Again, a grade separated, 25kv electrified line from Didcot to Southampton direct without routing via Reading for the proposed 30% increase in container traffic. Not exactly reinstating via Newbury but along those lines.
Not a completely new line but a line from Teesside, through Darlington, Barnard Castle, over Stainmore, Kirby Stephen, Appleby, Penrith to West Cumberland, via the biggest towns of Keswick and Cockermouth to Whitehaven, Workington or Maryport. All towns are much bigger and more important than in 1962/1966 when the lines were closed.
It was unforgivable that Penrith-Keswick was closed only 27 months before the WCML through Penrith was electrified with the best and fastest service Penrith ever had. Could BR not have delayed closure to see if revenue on the branch increased with extra passengers with better connections at Penrith? Only a few years previously, 1968 I think, 2 trains were run from/to London top and tailed from Penrith, for Keswick religious Convention. Only a fraction of 20,000 attending the Convention. More trains could have run but BR had closed signal boxes and reduced track to a single siding from Penrith limiting the number a trains that could operate on a One Engine in Steam principle. We need a proper functioning railway through the North Lakes to Keswick if not all the way to the coast.
Coking coal coke from the proposed mine at Whitehaven to Redcar (6 trains a day when in full production) could use this line to avoid congested nodal points of Carlisle and Newcastle with reduced fuel/mileage. As coke is a third of the weight compared to coal these trains could manage the steeper 1 in 60 gradients over the Pennines. Bulk is the limiting factor not weight.
Would £5billion be enough?
I would reopen Stanley Jnc to Forfar, 115mph, with new build 110/125mph railway from Forfar to just south of Stonehaven. This would reduce Glasgow-Aberdeen journey time to sub 2 hours reducing journey time by 20-30 minutes stopping only at Stirling, Perth and Stonehaven. Stations at Couper Angus, Forfar, and Brechin by Perth- Aberdeen stopping trains
Of course I wont mention Cross Gates-Wetherby-Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton as a second route from West Yorkshire to Teesside, Tyneside and Edinburgh and commuter railway from Ripon, Harrogate and Wetherby into Leeds. It will keep to a later post.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Network Rail has just awarded you a 5 billion pound contract and want you to build a new line wherever you want.

What would you do?

If P15/16 at Picc and doubling Castlefield corridor is too expencive, then maybe reopening a closed line somewhere around Manchester E.g. Bolton and Kenyon line.
I'm not very sure of how much building rail lines cost, but I think it'd need a tunnel into Bolton because they build houses over it (and a Morrisons' car park), and need some grade separation where it's currently the A579.

Also tearing up the guided busway and replacing it with trams (connecting to Eccles) would be on the list if trams were NR.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is this yet another (fantasy) line re-opening thread, but this time with an arbitrary £5bln spending cap?

 

[dk1]

Get on with building East West Rail between Cambridge and Bedford.

Hear Hear

 

[AzureOtsu]

Quadruple the Brighton main line and invest in the west London line allowing intercity trains to enter Brighton once more whilst also creating another reliable cross London link.

 

[William3000]

What an utter waste of money, given the places served are relatively small compared to the major cities in the North of England.

I would build a new tunnel under the Pennines to provide a faster more direct rail route from Manchester to Sheffield.

East West Rail is so important - it serves an area where city to city connections are important and in one of the fastest growing areas of the country. It also provides interchange on most north-south main lines so it’s not just about facilitating journeys like Bedford to Cambridge but also Birmingham to Luton, Leicester to Stevenage, Luton Airport to Peterborough, Birmingham Airport to Cambridge, Coventry to St Albans etc

 

[The Ham]

There's lots which could be done with it, depending on the small print. For example does new line mean that it's only new to the current network (so reopenings and redoublings are permitted), does new mean new to the rail network ever (so the above don't count) it even does it mean that something as simple as a new junction counts (as it shows a new service to be run connection two corridors together)?

Fairly high up my list would the Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL) and whilst building it I'd electrify it. Yes it's a basket case in terms of traditional bushes case. However, if we could (nationality) reduce car use by 10% it would have a significant impact on our route to net zero.

As whilst electric cars (battery) are better they are still very wasteful compared to electric trains. Not least the amount of infrastructure needed to park them (and the significant amount of energy needed to build that storage).

In comparison our current rail carbon emissions (per passenger km's) is broadly comparable to EV's (and that's a far from fair comparison as your comparing the average of rail against the average of the best for roads).

By adding up to 24km of electrification (assuming only the line itself) it would reduce the need to add much diesel running, but more importantly it would make extending the electrification of between Exeter and Plymouth much cheaper (not least as I'd happen to put in two grids connections, one at each end) so there would be plenty of power capacity for the wires just to be extended for some distance without the need for further connections (or only fairly minor ones).

Before anyone asks, of course I'd need two connections, you've got to have a certain level of redundancy to ensure that if there was ever as need to maintain one you didn't shut down the power to the entire line.

If the small print allowed, I'd electrify at much as possible if the lines around the DAL to enable the replacment of as many DMU's with BEMU's as the budget allowed.

Bristol to Plymouth is 200 km, so at £6 million per single track km would be about £2.5bn, add in £2bn for the DAL and you're pretty much there in terms of your £5bn budget. You would probably get more in terms of numbers if services which could cease to need any diesel by electrifying more of the branches and leaving a gap on the main line to be bridged by batteries - however it's a useful guide as to how much electrification you could add.

 

[daodao]

Birmingham to Luton, Leicester to Stevenage, Luton Airport to Peterborough, Birmingham Airport to Cambridge, Coventry to St Albans etc

Why is a new Cambridge-Bedford line useful for any of the above journeys? Existing routes are available:

• Birmingham to Luton - change at Leicester and Kettering
• Leicester to Stevenage - change at Peterborough
• Luton Airport to Peterborough - change at Kettering and Leicester (a new curve near Manton would facilitate a more direct route)
• Birmingham Airport to Cambridge - change at Birmingham New Street (but why is this useful when Stansted Airport is near Cambridge?)
• Coventry to St Albans - change at Watford Junction

The intersection of the EW route with existing north-south lines is/would be poor. Long distance trains no longer call at Bletchley and call only irregularly at Bedford Midland. The proposed St.Neots/Tempsford station on the putative Cambridge-Bedford line is separate from the existing St Neots station, which in any case is not served by long distance trains.

The benefits of extending the E-W rail line east of Bedford should be assessed solely on the basis of possible direct journeys to Cambridge, taking into account that it is only a relatively small city (population about 150.000), whose principal station is off centre for its city centre and university even if now relatively convenient for some commercial premises.

 

[Magdalia]

The benefits of extending the E-W rail line east of Bedford should be assessed solely on the basis of possible direct journeys to Cambridge

I agree with this. East West Rail can't be justified on the basis of marginal benefits to a few cross country journeys. It stands or falls on the contribution it makes to economic growth in and around Cambridge.

it is only a relatively small city (population about 150.000), whose principal station is off centre for its city centre and university even if now relatively convenient for some commercial premises.

If Mr Gove has his way Cambridge will be more than doubling in size. And it will happen if the water issue can be resolved.

And what matters is the number of jobs in Cambridge, the people don't have to live there. The location of the main station is no longer a drawback because businesses and jobs have migrated to be near the station. The location of the main station in relation to the Old City is irrelevant for economic growth because economic growth isn't going to happen in the Old City, it will be on the Biomedical Campus and other similar locations. Only tourists and shoppers need to go to the old City, and they have plenty of buses. On the other hand Cambridge South will be opening next to the Biomedical Campus, where more than 30k jobs will be located.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I would build a time machine and go back in time to prevent building assent being given to the Port Road, Carmathen to Aberystwyth, the Waverley line, Skipton to Colne and any other reopening that appears to be forum favourites

 

[dk1]

And what matters is the number of jobs in Cambridge, the people don't have to live there. The location of the main station is no longer a drawback because businesses and jobs have migrated to be near the station. The location of the main station in relation to the Old City is irrelevant for economic growth because economic growth isn't going to happen in the Old City, it will be on the Biomedical Campus and other similar locations. Only tourists and shoppers need to go to the old City, and they have plenty of buses. On the other hand Cambridge South will be opening next to the Biomedical Campus, where more than 30k jobs will be located.

Such a successful and prosperous destination these days. Cambridge more than deserves EWR in my opinion and all other incentives to improve public transport to, from and around it.

 

[Nottingham59]

My vote is for new tracks and low-cost connections to get the most out of HS2 phase 1.

• Continue phase 2a for 40km to Whitmore, to avoid Colwich (£4bn at £100m/km)
• At-grade curve at Bent Lane near Whitmore to merge into WCML fast lines. (£100m)
• Cancel the Handsacre Link (saving £500m - £800m)
• New southbound chord at Great Haywood to allow trains from Manchester via Stone to merge onto HS2, at grade. (£100m)
• New northbound spur from HS2 to Little Heywood, to merge onto what is now the southbound slow line from Stone (£200m). Thus the line between Colwich and Stone becomes a dedicated HS2 spur to Stoke-on-Trent and Manchester, avoiding all conflicts with WCML traffic and no new flyovers.
• Remodel Colwich junction so that all 4-tracks of the WCML funnel down into the 2-track Shugborough tunnel, with no crossing conflicts. (£50m)
• Build 4km of the HS2 Eastern Spur (£800m), leading to a (tight) curve onto the Birmingham-Derby line between Kingsbury and the M42 (£100m + electrification to Derby). Saving 15 min to Sheffield, and releasing capacity on the southern MML.
• Lengthen two platforms at Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Preston, Carlise, Derby, Sheffield to 400m (£50m x 7)
• Build the first 500m of one tunnel east of Old Oak Common to allow 6tph trains terminating at P1&2 to reverse onto P5&6, without conflicting with 6tph reversing on P3&4. (£1 bn)
• Cancel HS2 Euston (saving £5bn).

This programme should enable 12tph from OOC, to utilise the capacity of HS2 Phase1. e.g.:

• 2tph Curzon St (400m)
• 2tph Manchester via Stoke
• 2tph Manchester via Crewe
• 2tph Liverpool
• 1tph Warrington, Preston (400m)
• 1tph Scotland (400m splitting)
• 2tph Derby and Sheffield (400m)

 

[507021]

I think £5 billion should cover these, with enough left to buy some more 777s and some trams.

• Canada Dock Branch.
• Deeside-Chester, with stations at Deeside Industrial Park, Blacon, Liverpool Road and Hoole. (This would tie-in with the Borderlands Line between Bidston and Deeside transferring to the Merseyrail network)
• Liverpool South Parkway-Liverpool Airport light rail, with a station at the Estuary Business Park.
• North Liverpool Extension Line.
• North Mersey Branch.
• Rainford-Skelmersdale.

 

[DerekC]

There is no doubt in my mind that what is most needed is a fast, high capacity network linking Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford and Leeds and tying in the towns in between as well. It doesn't have to be high speed in the HS2 sense, but it should allow start to stop averages of 60mph or better. I have lost track of exactly what the current Trans-Pennine upgrade is delivering and what (if anything) the current government is committed to after that, but I would spend a bit of the £5Bn on developing a coherent plan for this network and getting cross-party, cross-Pennine consensus that it represents the best long term approach, then spend the rest of the money on the next stage. In other words create and start delivering a strategic plan for rail in the north.

 

[Mat17]

Woodhead reopened and re-electrified, Manchester through to Retford and also down the old road to Chesterfield ready for the MML electrification.

 

[daodao]

There is no doubt in my mind that what is most needed is a fast, high capacity network linking Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford and Leeds and tying in the towns in between as well. It doesn't have to be high speed in the HS2 sense, but it should allow start to stop averages of 60mph or better. I have lost track of exactly what the current Trans-Pennine upgrade is delivering and what (if anything) the current government is committed to after that, but I would spend a bit of the £5Bn on developing a coherent plan for this network and getting cross-party, cross-Pennine consensus that it represents the best long term approach, then spend the rest of the money on the next stage. In other words create and start delivering a strategic plan for rail in the north.

Woodhead reopened and re-electrified, Manchester through to Retford and also down the old road to Chesterfield ready for the MML electrification.

The poorest service between major conurbations in the current railway map is between Manchester/NW England and South Yorkshire/East Midlands, which is only partly provided for by the inadequate Hope Valley line. This is due to BR and the then Labour governments downgrading and ultimately closing both the electrified Woodhead line and the Midland main line via the Peak District, neither of which were recommended for closure by Dr Beeching. By contrast, the Manchester-Leeds service is reasonable and already being upgraded, although its frequency has been cut back in the latest timetable.

 

[Class15]

Bow - Victoria Park.