Avanti WC down the pan again

[Bantamzen]

Yikes, its going to get very messy then.

 

[The Prisoner]

Cracking exchange between a customer needing to get the 2330 Euston to Wolverhampton which has been cancelled due to staff shortages with, initially, no replacement at all offered and then somewhere else they are offered LNWR to Milton Keynes for a bus getting back to Wolves around 3.30am.

Sorry - can’t see to quote/link X properly, but click on the below

“It seems the 23:30 from Euston to Wolverhampton has been cancelled, we can only travel back after 11pm- what’s the alternative options?“

Just looking at their profile they are going to the Brentford-Wolves game. Surely they won’t be the only ones?

 

[Deafdoggie]

One wonders whether it will take some form of serious incident for rail companies to take seriously their responsibilities to all passengers in such scenarios, which sadly, seem to be all the more common. It seems to me the potential risks to passengers in such situations, situations which they simply would not be in were it not for railway incompetence, is really very significant. At very least, identifying a safe space for people to wait whilst onward transport/hotels are organised, by Avanti, at Avanti's immediate cost (for example on one of the several platformed trains, or ideally, on the one they have arrived on) would seem really the very basic "due care" we should expect.

Of course it will. The railways are only ever reactive to safety risk, never proactive. It always takes something to go wrong first, then a knee-jerk reaction. Rather than common sense in advance.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Logistically, wouldn’t it be better for Avanti to terminate at Carlisle rather than Preston if there’s problems north of Carlisle?

A few reasons being that you wouldn’t have the problem of passengers for Oxenholme and Penrith also waiting for buses and taxis at Preston alongside the passengers for Scotland. Terminating at Carlisle (or at least running a shuttle), will help shift more passengers rather than making them wait for up to several hours.

Also from Carlisle I definitely think coaches may be easier to source if they were to operate Carlisle to Glasgow/Edinburgh instead of Glasgow/Edinburgh to Preston. Also from Carlisle there’s the alternative in the form of the Scotrail service (if that isn’t similarly affected).

It’s always a poor show to abandon everything north of Preston, that’d be like LNER abandoning everything north of York.

 

[d70g]

I suspect (AWC insiders - please correct) either that Preston-based Avanti drivers don't sign all the way to Carlisle, or, more likely - as Glasgow/Edinburgh services are crewed from Polmadie - having a Preston-based crew assigned to Carlisle-bound trains would impact rosters and ability to crew all services to London, which would have a bigger impact on AWC's timetable (and revenue).

 

[43066]

Logistically, wouldn’t it be better for Avanti to terminate at Carlisle rather than Preston if there’s problems north of Carlisle?

A few reasons for the current arrangements: Preston is a major crew depot, London drivers sign as far as Preston and no further, so can terminate, have a PNB, and work a train back south (and vice-versa for Scotts crews); it has lots of spare platforms to dump uncrewed units, and is also a decent sized hub to source buses/taxis.

 

[Peter0124]

Maybe Carlisle needs a staff base, covering the same routes as Polmadie but with particular emphasis on the Carlisle to Preston section.

The equivalent city on the ECML is Newcastle (at least as far north) which has one, though Newcastle station must be 4-5 times busier, and I don't think there's one at York so they cover all the way down to London.

 

[jagardner1984]

As I understood it from a previous thread - Preston Crews cover both north and south, with London crews only covering to Preston and Polmadie crews only covering to Preston

So presumably the dual fear today was Preston crews getting stuck in Glasgow and Glasgow crews getting stuck in Preston.

Given the regularity of Avanti disruption (for a variety of factors, not all of which they control), that crewing arrangement seems to leave them very exposed.

 

[Falcon1200]

So presumably the dual fear today was Preston crews getting stuck in Glasgow and Glasgow crews getting stuck in Preston.

The line closure was north of Carlisle, so Glasgow crews could not go anywhere and Preston crews could have worked to Carlisle. The desire to protect the service south of Preston is understandable, but this should not be at the expense of abandoning, totally, Avanti trains to Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle, a separate Preston-crewed shuttle should run between there and Carlisle.

Also from Carlisle I definitely think coaches may be easier to source if they were to operate Carlisle to Glasgow/Edinburgh instead of Glasgow/Edinburgh to Preston.

Agree, and if coaches were only operating to Carlisle rather than Preston each vehicle and driver could make more trips.

 

[30907]

The line closure was north of Carlisle, so Glasgow crews could not go anywhere and Preston crews could have worked to Carlisle. The desire to protect the service south of Preston is understandable, but this should not be at the expense of abandoning, totally, Avanti trains to Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle, a separate Preston-crewed shuttle should run between there and Carlisle.

I agree - but you have to resource it, and I suspect running a Carlisle shuttle with Preston crews at no notice would require cancelling most of their London turns, which would mess up rather more passengers.

It ought to be done if it can be planned and resourced, but I am not an insider nor even a diagrammer so have no idea if that is a realistic possibility.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I suspect running a Carlisle shuttle with Preston crews at no notice would require cancelling most of their London turns, which would mess up rather more passengers.

No doubt there'll be a reason, but if Preston crews do have route knowledge up from Preston to Glasgow/Edinburgh, it seems odd that they couldn't instead just do one or more runs up to Carlisle and back when the WCML line North of Carlisle is closed.

 

[Falcon1200]

I suspect running a Carlisle shuttle with Preston crews at no notice would require cancelling most of their London turns

It would certainly affect the service south of Preston, but IMHO still better than simply abandoning four stations altogether, meaning more passengers dumped off trains at Preston than would be the case at Carlisle. I would suggest in severe disruption, abandoning the via Birmingham service altogether to release traincrew and putting Stop Orders on the Trent Valley services at Crewe and/or Stafford, for connections with Birmingham.

 

[Par]

Nothing heading out of Euston until approximately 17.15, due to a person being hit by a train Between Wembley Central and Watford Junction.

Clearly not Avanti’s fault this one, but another bad day for the WCML.

 

[Boodiggy]

It would certainly affect the service south of Preston, but IMHO still better than simply abandoning four stations altogether, meaning more passengers dumped off trains at Preston than would be the case at Carlisle. I would suggest in severe disruption, abandoning the via Birmingham service altogether to release traincrew and putting Stop Orders on the Trent Valley services at Crewe and/or Stafford, for connections with Birmingham.

I agree. There must be something better that can be done to offer a service.

Nothing heading out of Euston until approximately 17.15, due to a person being hit by a train Between Wembley Central and Watford Junction.

Clearly not Avanti’s fault this one, but another bad day for the WCML.

Happened just south of Harrow. 1A30 on the Up Fast Line

 

[Howardh]

One of the reasons why, when visiting London (from Manchester area), I stay around Milton Keynes is obviously the cheaper hotel prices but also the option of LNW trains to Crewe and onward with Northern if Avanti are "down" and if the line's down completely there's MK Coachway; a taxi-ride from the hotels, and the option of a 4-hr National Express.

It's ridiculous that when you travel you have to have a plan B and back-up plan C. Obviously things like people on the line, wires down aren't Avanti's fault and in a lot of cases are down to our elderly an ill-maintained infrastructure. But I'd hate to HAVE to be in place A for such a time and rely on the trains (in general) and Avanti (in particular) to get me there.

 

[Deafdoggie]

One of the reasons why, when visiting London (from Manchester area), I stay around Milton Keynes is obviously the cheaper hotel prices but also the option of LNW trains to Crewe and onward with Northern if Avanti are "down" and if the line's down completely there's MK Coachway; a taxi-ride from the hotels, and the option of a 4-hr National Express.

It's ridiculous that when you travel you have to have a plan B and back-up plan C. Obviously things like people on the line, wires down aren't Avanti's fault and in a lot of cases are down to our elderly an ill-maintained infrastructure. But I'd hate to HAVE to be in place A for such a time and rely on the trains (in general) and Avanti (in particular) to get me there.

It's why I, and so many others, buy a car. The rail service is abysmal and no one cares. There's lots of excuses, but no actual desire to do anything about it, just more blaming other people for it.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It's why I, and so many others, buy a car. The rail service is abysmal and no one cares. There's lots of excuses, but no actual desire to do anything about it, just more blaming other people for it.

There are many people that care, but the ones with the purse strings unfortunately do not

 

[12LDA28C]

Nothing heading out of Euston until approximately 17.15, due to a person being hit by a train Between Wembley Central and Watford Junction.

Clearly not Avanti’s fault this one, but another bad day for the WCML.

Fatality at Kenton. All too common at this time of year sadly.

 

[GordonT]

Fatality at Kenton. All too common at this time of year sadly.

Twitter comment to Avanti from Edwina Currie who is on the incident train 1A30:

"I confess I do not understand why several hundred tired hungry people are being kept on this train. Surely as there’s a British Transport Police investigation ongoing, we are in the way?"

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Royal Mail train 3x Class 325 in reception sidings near PRDC, fully loaded but presumably unable to go north.

Realtime Trains | 1M96 1616 Willesden Prdc to Warrington Royal Mail(Dbs) | 28/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1M96 1616 departure from Willesden Prdc to Warrington Royal Mail(Dbs) on 28/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Would a diversion via Primrose Hill and Camden Road be possible, or would the power be off?

 

[zwk500]

Royal Mail train 3x Class 325 in reception sidings near PRDC, fully loaded but presumably unable to go north.

Realtime Trains | 1M96 1616 Willesden Prdc to Warrington Royal Mail(Dbs) | 28/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1M96 1616 departure from Willesden Prdc to Warrington Royal Mail(Dbs) on 28/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Would a diversion via Primrose Hill and Camden Road be possible, or would the power be off?

Diversion to where via Primrose Hill? The line is blocked north of Wembley Central.

 

[parkender102]

Nothing heading out of Euston until approximately 17.15, due to a person being hit by a train Between Wembley Central and Watford Junction.

Clearly not Avanti’s fault this one, but another bad day for the WCML.

Can't help but think that the gradual demanning of Railway Stations doesn't help at all with incidences of Suicide / Foul Play / Crime / Safety of passengers etc. A well trained member of staff picks up on things that CCTV Cameras and Notices cannot change or influence. CCTV Cameras are great for determining what happened after the incident has occured but that is a fat lot of good to the person affected.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Diversion to where via Primrose Hill? The line is blocked north of Wembley Central.

Diversion to the East Coast Main Line via Camden Road, Gospel Oak and the Harringey Curve (wired for some years now) ?

 

[zwk500]

Diversion to the East Coast Main Line via Camden Road, Gospel Oak and the Harringey Curve (wired for some years now) ?

No route back to the WCML though for Warrington without a drag. Run to Peterborough and drop the diesel on for a drag to Nuneaton may be theoretically possible but I suspect it'll still be quicker for the train to just wait for the first pair of lines to be handed back on the WCML and then it can be sent through with high priority.

 

[GordonT]

Can't help but think that the gradual demanning of Railway Stations doesn't help at all with incidences of Suicide / Foul Play / Crime / Safety of passengers etc. A well trained member of staff picks up on things that CCTV Cameras and Notices cannot change or influence. CCTV Cameras are great for determining what happened after the incident has occured but that is a fat lot of good to the person affected.

Traffic now on the move c.1730.

 

[Oxfordblues]

1A30 now arriving Euston 259 late. Is this the record?

 

[parkender102]

Daughter Travelling from North Wales today via TFW then West Midlands Railway to Euston. 13:13 from Crewe to Euston cancelled - waited an hour at Crewe for the 14:13 WMR which was subsequently delayed by the fatality near Watford / Wembley - more delays at Atherstone then advised to get off at Nuneaton for Leicester then Leicester - St Pancras (Ticket Acceptance in place). Now on EMR 17:30 Leicester - St Pancras. Sods Law they've all started moving again! She said it's the worst day she's ever experienced on the railways..................

 

[12LDA28C]

She said it's the worst day she's ever experienced on the railways..................

No doubt, although I'd suggest the deceased had a rather worse day which might put things in perspective.

 

[hexabyte]

Twitter comment to Avanti from Edwina Currie who is on the incident train 1A30:

"I confess I do not understand why several hundred tired hungry people are being kept on this train. Surely as there’s a British Transport Police investigation ongoing, we are in the way?"

BTP were the ones who refused to allow any train movements in the area, even 2O41 which was stuck behind the incident train and clear of the incident was being held by BTP. Internal information reveals that multiple attempts to get this train back to HRW were made including escalation to the BTP SDO and the London NOC but nothing. An evacuation to ballast was the only alternative and resources were sent to action this though I don’t know if this actually happened or not. Either way, it’s a sad day for those involved. The incident train moving could easily ruin any forensic evidence.

 

[jagardner1984]

Twitter comment to Avanti from Edwina Currie who is on the incident train 1A30:

"I confess I do not understand why several hundred tired hungry people are being kept on this train. Surely as there’s a British Transport Police investigation ongoing, we are in the way?"

You would have thought as someone in public life who presumably has some awareness of emergency services and traumatic situations - she would be aware it’s not quite a simple as this tweet implies, and that getting appropriate support to the driver and the team on the ground is perhaps even more important than her hunger.

Generally given the lack of alternative routes into London, and the personal tragedy for both the family of the person involved and the railway family unwillingly involved, I think this is one scenario (sadly very much a peak season for it) the railways can be said to deal with consistently and compassionately well.