Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[ThameslinkUser]

Did anybody archive or download any of the documents that were linked in post 166? Looks to have been completely taken down now.

 

[PGAT]

All I kept was the picture

 

[MrJeeves]

It was replaced with a new agreement from 5 Feb.

See "Current Track Access Consultations" here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ormation-for-operators/sale-of-access-rights/

All attached below.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

It was replaced with a new agreement from 5 Feb.

See "Current Track Access Consultations" here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ormation-for-operators/sale-of-access-rights/

All attached below.

I can't really see any differences to what was there before that got removed, so I would presume that these changes almost look final (perhaps pending a final sign off) unless anyone knows otherwise.

 

[PGAT]

I can't really see any differences to what was there before that got removed, so I would presume that these changes almost look final (perhaps pending a final sign off) unless anyone knows otherwise.

Yeah the June 2024 WTT should be appearing on journey planners starting this week

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Yeah the June 2024 WTT should be appearing on journey planners starting this week

When does southern usually publish their timetables, that would be useful to familiarise myself with times at my local station.
On completely unrelated notes, I have also been thinking about Littlehampton quite a but recently. I think that it's going to be likely worse than it is currently with no trains to Bognor and Portsmouth trains truncated to Chichester, and also with potentially worse trains to Brighton with only 1 direct train rather than 2 previously planned, and no hove shuttles to offer a connection from Littlehampton to Victoria services (which thankfully is not being messed up other than more calls at lancing which should have been made a long time ago), which is particularly important in the evening without Brighton services.
I know Sunday services are not subject to change. However, would it be reasonable to expect certain changes in the future, because with Brighton to Southampton services for example, it retains the old calling pattern, which includes skipping Woolston, Portchester and Southbourne, but calling absolutely everywhere east of Chichester (except Littlehampton of course)? I think keeping relics of the past just doesn't make sense for Sunday services, which probably should be similar to Monday to Saturday services, but fewer services, such as reducing 2tph services to 1tph and with extra calls to compensate for some services that don't run on Sunday (such as Littlehampton to Portsmouth & Southsea, so Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour picks up the calls except Hilsea with its lack of sunday eastbound services including by SWR).

 

[swt_passenger]

When does southern usually publish their timetables, that would be useful to familiarise myself with times at my local station.

Generally we find at every change date that RTT and then journey planners are updated many weeks if not months before timetables are seen, ie pdfs on TOC websites usually appear some time later and paper copies (if they bother) will only be put out a few days before the change.

If you use RTT you’ll usually get a massive head start compared to visiting a local station.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Generally we find at every change date that RTT and then journey planners are updated many weeks if not months before timetables are seen, ie pdfs on TOC websites usually appear some time later and paper copies (if they bother) will only be put out a few days before the change.

If you use RTT you’ll usually get a massive head start compared to visiting a local station.

To be fair, paper timetables are to all intents of purposes a thing if the past, like almost any paper product, but that's another story in itself to be honest, probably better discussed on another thread if anyone is ever interested. Either way, I'll probably look on trainline if that's updated, or something else if that works better.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Just spotted that Southern have put out a press release on the changes this morning and have updated their website!

Passengers get up to 5,000 extra seats a day as Southern uses customer feedback to redesign West Coastway timetable and attract people back to rail

New Southern West Coastway train timetable has more frequent trains (with up to 5,000 extra seats a day), that are more punctual and reliable, and with many...

www.mynewsdesk.com

Southern - West Coastway timetable changes

www.southernrailway.com

The information on NR was accurate, they are saving the direct Brighton to Portsmouth trains by swapping out one of the Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton trains.

Overall i think a positive change

 

[winks]

Question is will there be any faster trains from either Portsmouth or Southampton to Brighton.

 

[Sun Chariot]

As I understand it, the first ones to be used on the BTN-SOU will be green ex-GWR 387's, although red ones may also be used if required

Last autumn, whilst walking my dog, I saw a red 387 heading west through Bedhampton, presumably running a trial BTN-SOU turn.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Question is will there be any faster trains from either Portsmouth or Southampton to Brighton.

No, roughly the same timings by the looks of things

 

[nw1]

Question is will there be any faster trains from either Portsmouth or Southampton to Brighton.

At one point they could manage two fast paths an hour: the hourly (as was) Victoria to Southampton via Hove (connection from Brighton) and the hourly fast to either Basingstoke or Reading, leaving Brighton on the hour.

They also (IIRC) managed to fit in 3 stoppers per hour between Brighton and Worthing too, in addition to the fast paths, so there was still a good local service.

I guess a complete recast would be needed to open up these fast paths again, I do wonder whether this could be considered at some point in the future as I would argue there is a need for one fast Coastway service per hour to link the principal towns and cities.

 

[OscarH]

Just spotted that Southern have put out a press release on the changes this morning and have updated their website!

Passengers get up to 5,000 extra seats a day as Southern uses customer feedback to redesign West Coastway timetable and attract people back to rail

New Southern West Coastway train timetable has more frequent trains (with up to 5,000 extra seats a day), that are more punctual and reliable, and with many...

www.mynewsdesk.com

Southern - West Coastway timetable changes

www.southernrailway.com

The information on NR was accurate, they are saving the direct Brighton to Portsmouth trains by swapping out one of the Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton trains.

Overall i think a positive change

Yeah, unfortunate for people going to/from Littlehampton from the west, down to hourly from the current half-hourly, but I agree its for the greater good

I do wonder if the Bognor - Barnham shuttle 2tph would be better as Bognor - Littlehampton 1tph, but I'd guess paths through Ford would be an issue

 

[Sussex Star]

I wonder if there's any chance they will restore the journey times up to London that we had before the Gatwick Airport Station works.

When the Gatwick improvements began, they added 4 minutes of padding to the journey time, claiming this was for during the works only. But now, even though all the platforms are now back working at full capacity, they've kept the padding time.

I know this is supposed to help the network more widely, but the wait at Gatwick is excessive, so hopefully this will be an opportunity to shave off two or three minutes.

 

[winks]

Feel like it’s good news for Portsmouth travellers.

S’hampton lose direct services to Gatwick.

Semi fast stopping patterns between SOU and BTN

Semi fast stopping patterns between Portsmouth and BTN (with Aldrington and Fishersgate dropped during the Off Pk)

Last train to Southampton 45 mins later than currently timetabled from BTN. (In practice what will this be … 21:15 ?)

 

[swt_passenger]

Question is will there be any faster trains from either Portsmouth or Southampton to Brighton.

The extra Portsmouth to Brighton, (compared to the original proposal), shown by the purple line in the diagram in post #166, has a calling pattern that makes it main stations only between Portsmouth and Angmering. It might be relatively fast over that section of route.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Yeah, unfortunate for people going to/from Littlehampton from the west, down to hourly from the current half-hourly, but I agree its for the greater good

I do wonder if the Bognor - Barnham shuttle 2tph would be better as Bognor - Littlehampton 1tph, but I'd guess paths through Ford would be an issue

Bognor-Barnham always seems like a bit of a waste to me - but as you say, I'd imagine extending it would create conflict at Ford/Arundel/Littlehampton junction

 

[weeklycommuter]

Just spotted that Southern have put out a press release on the changes this morning and have updated their website!

Passengers get up to 5,000 extra seats a day as Southern uses customer feedback to redesign West Coastway timetable and attract people back to rail

New Southern West Coastway train timetable has more frequent trains (with up to 5,000 extra seats a day), that are more punctual and reliable, and with many...

www.mynewsdesk.com

Southern - West Coastway timetable changes

www.southernrailway.com

The information on NR was accurate, they are saving the direct Brighton to Portsmouth trains by swapping out one of the Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton trains.

Overall i think a positive change

West Coastway Route Map on Southern website attached
Some excerpts from the West Coastway Engagement Document on Southern website:

What will be in place when the new timetable is introduced in June 2024
A new hourly Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton all-stations service will run, providing services to all the stations on the route and a new direct connection between Brighton and Littlehampton. Along with the Brighton to Portsmouth semi-fast service, this will provide a significant improvement in capacity and connections on the busiest section of the route into Brighton. To enable this change, the hourly all-stations Littlehampton to Portsmouth & Southsea service will be removed, with the smaller stations between Havant and Chichester being served by the Portsmouth Harbour to London Victoria stopping service as detailed above. Customers from Littlehampton heading west will be able to connect to semi-fast services to Portsmouth or Southampton at Barnham with total journey times being comparable to today.
Frequencies between Bognor Regis and Barnham will not change but the proposal is to create more even intervals between departures of approximately every 15 minutes by running two services to London Victoria and two shuttle services between Bognor Regis and Barnham, therefore offering better connections to other destinations.
Bedhampton will be removed from the majority of the Southern services as a result of the extension of the Brighton to Portsmouth service. Customer numbers are low and calls are duplicated on SWR services. In order to provide an all day service, some early morning and late evening calls will still be made by Southern services.
There will be some related changes to South Western Railway services between Portsmouth and London Waterloo, and between Portsmouth and Southampton but these are mainly the re‑timing of trains.

Key changes to original proposals as a result of customer and stakeholder feedback
Following feedback from customers and stakeholders we have amended our original plans. We have made eight main amendments to our original proposals, incorporating hundreds of smaller changes to the times of individual trains. The most significant are to:
Retain an hourly direct service between Brighton and Portsmouth.
• This train will stop at most stations between Brighton and Angmering to retain or provide new direct services to Portsmouth
Better support local journeys between Chichester and Havant by:
• One train per hour calls at all the small intermediate stations between Chichester and Havant
• The other service will be ‘semi-fast’ and will call at only Emsworth and Southbourne, between Chichester and Havant.
• During school times, both trains will call at all stations between Chichester and Havant.
NB. The two services in the original proposal had similar overall journey times but calls at the stations between Chichester and Havant were divided between the two services. Customers commented that this could make local journeys challenging, particularly for school children in the area.

The request to retain direct services between Brighton and Portsmouth was a key theme that we are pleased to have been able to meet. However, there have been some consequences as a result:
• One of the two originally proposed Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton stopping services will switch into a Brighton to Portsmouth semi-fast service. However, this does mean there are changes for Littlehampton, Aldrington and Fishersgate.
• For Littlehampton heading westward, there is an hourly service to Chichester, with onward connections available there or at Barnham to all services to Portsmouth and Southampton. The stopping service to Portsmouth will provide connections to the smaller stations between Chichester and Havant. Barnham will also provide connections to Bognor Regis.
• Heading east from Littlehampton, the service will remain improved on the existing timetable as the London Victoria service is to be increased to half-hourly throughout the entire day and it will still gain a new hourly direct connection to Brighton.
• To provide attractive journey times between Brighton and Portsmouth, Fishersgate and Aldrington will no longer see the proposed increase to off-peak half-hourly frequencies all day. They will still be served half-hourly at peak times.

 

[winks]

The extra Portsmouth to Brighton, (compared to the original proposal), shown by the purple line in the diagram in post #166, has a calling pattern that makes it main stations only between Portsmouth and Angmering.

For info there is no increase in services from Portsmouth to Brighton. Merely retaining the 1TpH currently, which was scheduled to be removed. Glad Southern have listened as it is very popular route esp. during the summer.

 

[swt_passenger]

For info there is no increase in services from Portsmouth to Brighton. Merely retaining the 1TpH currently, which was scheduled to be removed. Glad Southern have listened as it is very popular route esp. during the summer.

Yes, I meant that it was an extra when compared to the original (ie Jun 23) proposal.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Bognor-Barnham always seems like a bit of a waste to me - but as you say, I'd imagine extending it would create conflict at Ford/Arundel/Littlehampton junction

I wonder if they'll review that part in future.

Not sure whether 2TPH Bognor to Barnham is better than 1TPH Bognor to Littlehampton.

I'm inclined to say Bognor Regis to Littlehampton may be better.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I wonder if they'll review that part in future.

Not sure whether 2TPH Bognor to Barnham is better than 1TPH Bognor to Littlehampton.

I'm inclined to say Bognor Regis to Littlehampton may be better.

While 1tph Bognor Regis to Littlehampton may sound better, the actual reality is that it is often (for many door to door journeys) just faster to take the bus. As other users have highlighted, there is probably not space (at least with present infrastructure) for another train from Barnham to Ford and onto Littlehampton, considering its 8tph, and with Barnham, there are only 10tph westbound (8 east though) because the Barnham to Bognor Regis shuttles use platform 1, which completely separate the service from the main west coastway line.
An extra Barnham shuttle can enable better connections (such as by virtue fo each one being evenky spaced between the services to London Victoria I would likely assume) for other journeys, including Littlehampton, if they advertise the connection or the best train from Bognor for a train from Barnham to Littlehampton was ever to become common knowledge, but that is wishful thinking. Either way, while both a Barnham train and a Littlehampton train would be better, I think in general an extra Barnham shuttle would work better for Bognor Regis. In general though, almost a better idea in the first place could have a Brighton service from Bognor, because that would reduce the need to have Barnham shuttles at all, but Portsmouth and Southampton could probably do with them more.

 

[swt_passenger]

Here‘s the RTT page for Southampton Central. Departures most of the day at xx20 and xx50. Some services shunt via the down goods loop.

One early train at 0637 Southampton to Horsham/Victoria, I wasn’t expecting that, but it is in one of the tables with the TAA.
To balance that one out, there’s an off pattern 1S07, 0705 Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton arr 0836.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SN

 

[TrainBoy98]

While 1tph Bognor Regis to Littlehampton may sound better, the actual reality is that it is often (for many door to door journeys) just faster to take the bus.

Very true - despite being a frequent user of the busses, I seem to forget their existence when I'm on this forum!

Convenience likely wins too, with 2bph, and (currently) the £2 flat fare

 

[pompeyfan]

Here‘s the RTT page for Southampton Central. Departures most of the day at xx20 and xx50. Some services shunt via the down goods loop.

One early train at 0637 Southampton to Horsham/Victoria, I wasn’t expecting that, but it is in one of the tables with the TAA.
To balance that one out, there’s an off pattern 1S07, 0705 Portsmouth Harbour to Brighton arr 0836.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SN

I wasn’t expecting RTT to be uploaded so early but I guess it makes sense.

In the Portsmouth area it looks like Southern are continuing to use the same paths as previously with the exception of using the SWR stopper path from the harbour xx:03. This then confirms that SWR are swapping their fast and stopper departures, but also confirms significant retiming for the Southampton stopper.

I didn’t realise Woolston was getting 2 trains an hour, I had assumed it would be 1 an hour.

 

[Ken X]

Amusingly the one train we used weekly was from Horsham to Southampton for onward travel to Parkstone so it looks like we will have two changes going forward. Ho-hum.

 

[swt_passenger]

I didn’t realise Woolston was getting 2 trains an hour, I had assumed it would be 1 an hour.

It’s not been mentioned much recently but it was in the original June 2023 consultation and discussed back then.

 

[Kite159]

Bit of a poor connection for any passengers wanting to travel from Southampton to/from Horsham as at a glance the Southampton - Brighton trains follow the Portsmouth - Victoria services after Chichester (one of the Portsmouth - London trains calling at all the stations between Chicester & Havant, ouch) and the other way the Brighton - Southampton trains seem to run in front of a London -Portsmouth service at Barnham.

 

[JonathanH]

Bit of a poor connection for any passengers wanting to travel from Southampton to/from Horsham

Yes, effectively the 'good' connections are Brighton to Portsmouth and Arun Valley stopper to Southampton, meaning the Gatwick to Southampton connections are poor.