Why are things so expensive?

[SynthD]

Its the sort of line you could close for a few days at a time without a huge amount of disruption, at least compared to a lot of others.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-02-26/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt shows nearly 100 freight paths today.

 

[Starmill]

On top of all this, it is widely known that working as railway contractor in the UK allows cost estimating and charging according to whim. Despite this, so many projects still come in hugely over budget.

Contracts for something basic like building a platform and station furniture will be fixed fee.

 

[takno]

So this is a single platform station with access road and car park for 40 cars. No footbridge, minimal infrastructure.

If they build a single-platform station on this double-track line it's going to be a tad inconvenient for passengers going the other way, surely?

 

[Bald Rick]

Ultimately we’ve become too used to paying too little for many services in this country, in no small part due to the bottomless pit of cheap labour created by free movement, that has now come to an end.

That‘s part of it, yes. Another contributing factor is that younger people are much less likely these days to take up a ‘trade’. There is a smaller pool of these guys (and they usually are men) in the trades, and they can largely name their price.

 

[Starmill]

If they build a single-platform station on this double-track line it's going to be a tad inconvenient for passengers going the other way, surely?

Not if it's the end of the line (for the passenger services).

 

[The Planner]

If they build a single-platform station on this double-track line it's going to be a tad inconvenient for passengers going the other way, surely?

Its the terminus of a Walsall Aldridge diesel shuttle.

 

[Starmill]

That‘s part of it, yes. Another contributing factor is that younger people are much less likely these days to take up a ‘trade’. There is a smaller pool of these guys (and they usually are men) in the trades, and they can largely name their price.

Indeed. Similarly there's not exactly a massive pool of people whose name and signature can go on a report from an inspection of a bridge either. It would be ridiculous to claim only people on Network Rail payroll can fill that role.

 

[mcmad]

Its the terminus of a Walsall Aldridge diesel shuttle.

And what if you want to go from Aldridge to Walsall?

 

[Starmill]

And what if you want to go from Aldridge to Walsall?

The train goes back there from the same platform it arrives in Aldridge on.

 

[The Planner]

And what if you want to go from Aldridge to Walsall?

You catch the train from Aldridge back to Walsall.

 

[mcmad]

It's a double track railway so how does a single platform work?

 

[Class 170101]

Another reason it will be expensive is that those building the station are building out of normal hours incluyding overnights and weekends, especially Sundays. I would be surprised if these didn't attract premium rates.

 

[The Planner]

It's a double track railway so how does a single platform work?

You have a crossover at the Walsall end. Train arrives at Aldridge from Walsall, departs and crosses over to the other line back the other way.

 

[mcmad]

That's where the costs will be then, signalling changes to permit the turnbacks in passenger service.

 

[Starmill]

That's where the costs will be then, signalling changes to permit the turnbacks in passenger service.

Indeed exactly so, as confirmed by posts 3 and 5.

 

[eldomtom2]

It certainly is in part.

What is your evidence for that? How can the concept of standardisation - as opposed to a specific design of standardised station - be responsible for a station being unpleasant?

What others? On what evidence?

Again, look at post #6 in this thread, made by myself.

It's simplistic and wrong to just go "boo hoo lawyers and consultants" in the same way it's simplistic and wrong to just go "boo hoo health and safety law".

Of course it's simplistic and wrong to just go "boo hoo lawyers and consultants". But equally it is not necessarily simplistic to believe that the amount spent on lawyers and consultants could reduced.

Same reasons it's more expensive in the US than the UK.

Which are, in your opinion?

Id be surprised if ‘consultants‘ - which will include the designers, planners, environmental management, etc etc will be more than 10% of the total.

Do you have any specific cost breakdowns?

Ultimately we’ve become too used to paying too little for many services in this country, in no small part due to the bottomless pit of cheap labour created by free movement, that has now come to an end.

Where is your citation that construction costs have skyrocketed since Brexit?

 

[birchesgreen]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-02-26/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt shows nearly 100 freight paths today.

How many of those actually run, i live near the line so i have some idea how busy it is.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. Similarly there's not exactly a massive pool of people whose name and signature can go on a report from an inspection of a bridge either. It would be ridiculous to claim only people on Network Rail payroll can fill that role.

Quite - and for some things you must have an independent ‘expert witness’ to allay any concerns about marking ones own homework.

Do you have any specific cost breakdowns?

Not for this job.

But I do have for about 3 or 4 hundred others.

 

[The Planner]

How many of those actually run, i live near the line so i have some idea how busy it is.

43 last Tuesday, 46 Wednesday, 49 Thursday and so on.

 

[43066]

Where is your citation that construction costs have skyrocketed since Brexit?

No “citation” (what am I supposed to have done wrong? ). However, there is plenty of evidence out there:

Brexit: UK construction costs ‘have risen much more steeply than EU’ | Brexit | The Guardian

Cost of labour in Britain up by 30% since referendum, double rise in some EU countries, research finds

amp.theguardian.com

Analysis of data from EU member states, the central EU database, Eurostat, and the UK Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy show that between 2015 and 2022 the cost of construction materials including cement, timber and steel increased by 60%.At the same time, the cost of labour in the UK went up by 30%.‘Brexit has lost us 25% of sales’: British bike storage firm buckles under red tapeIn the EU, where similar pressures including supply chain and Covid problems applied, the cost of materials went up 35% while labour in countries such as Denmark and the Netherlands went up by just over 14%.

That shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. Basic economic theory dictates that, if supply of a product or service is curtailed, prices will rise, assuming constant demand.

To be clear I don’t think that’s a bad thing (and I voted leave), but we can’t pretend it has nothing to do with Brexit.

 

[Starmill]

What is your evidence for that? How can the concept of standardisation - as opposed to a specific design of standardised station - be responsible for a station being unpleasant?

Because it's a common criticism that everything looks "plain" or "the same", while it's a common praise that there are variations within a theme. Modular building techniques try to eliminate as much variation as possible to lower costs.

 

[birchesgreen]

43 last Tuesday, 46 Wednesday, 49 Thursday and so on.

Ok if you say so, just doesn't seem very busy when i'm within earshot.

 

[Starmill]

Again, look at post #6 in this thread, made by myself.

I did but there's nothing there to suggest Network Rail are getting the balance badly wrong. I see lots of evidence they're getting it broadly right. They use consultants where they require them and rely on them. They will bring people onto payroll where they can save money through doing so. Sure that's not perfect but my point is that the criticism levied against them for using consultants is baseless. Your link does nothing to rebut this.

 

[jfowkes]

You have a crossover at the Walsall end. Train arrives at Aldridge from Walsall, departs and crosses over to the other line back the other way.

Could the Walsall end crossover be avoided by using the existing crossovers and siding to the south of the station instead?

 

[43066]

That‘s part of it, yes. Another contributing factor is that younger people are much less likely these days to take up a ‘trade’. There is a smaller pool of these guys (and they usually are men) in the trades, and they can largely name their price.

It would be interesting to understand why that is the case. Snobbery around being a tradesman, as opposed to something more “middle class”, perhaps?

Over the course of a career people are generally going to be considerably better off learning a trade, than taking on a huge student loan to do a joke degree at an ex poly, for example.

 

[Starmill]

Of course it's simplistic and wrong to just go "boo hoo lawyers and consultants". But equally it is not necessarily simplistic to believe that the amount spent on lawyers and consultants could reduced.

Obviously. But Network Rail achieve sensible value for money all the time. They also sometimes sign bad contracts, or specify things wrongly. But this isn't necessarily an issue with the principle of using an external expert, it's an issue with internal process. This process is quite good.

Which are, in your opinion?

More than anything else: unit cost of labour, including specialised labour, and ability to exploit economies of scale.

Ok if you say so, just doesn't seem very busy when i'm within earshot.

There will be long periods of time when you don't hear anything, or only a tiny number of trains, especially weekends and bank holidays.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

I left NR a couple of years ago but came back as a so called "consultant" as my skills are somewhat unique, in fact I was the only one in the country. My costed hourly rate whilst working as an employee for NR was about £95, as they had to pay my wages, pension, sick pay, holiday pay, car costs incl fuel, PPE, uniform etc etc.
Employing full time staff is extremely costly so using external skilled people for short term projects is very cost effective as many of them are freelance and don't get the benefits employees get.

 

[The Planner]

Could the Walsall end crossover be avoided by using the existing crossovers and siding to the south of the station instead?

Looking at it, that crossover will be the one used. Probably needs a complete renewal as it has no real use currently as it stands.

 

[eldomtom2]

I did but there's nothing there to suggest Network Rail are getting the balance badly wrong. I see lots of evidence they're getting it broadly right. They use consultants where they require them and rely on them. They will bring people onto payroll where they can save money through doing so. Sure that's not perfect but my point is that the criticism levied against them for using consultants is baseless. Your link does nothing to rebut this.

Well whether or not Network Rail is getting the consultant balance right, costs need to be brought down.

More than anything else: unit cost of labour, including specialised labour, and ability to exploit economies of scale.

The degree to which there is a difference in transport project construction costs makes it very hard to argue that it's just the result of wage differences and a lack of economies of scale!

 

[Starmill]

Well whether or not Network Rail is getting the consultant balance right, costs need to be brought down.

That's a totally abstract statement though, which nobody could disagree with, the same as "crime needs to come down". There are unlimited wants and limited resources. All we can do is prioritise.

The degree to which there is a difference in transport project construction costs makes it very hard to argue that it's just the result of wage differences and a lack of economies of scale!

No it doesn't? Economies of scale being exploited well or not is a make or break condition in any number of markets. Construction is well recognised as one where they're relevant.