Why don't East Midlands Trains stop at St Albans?

[43096]

Well it'd be more useful than East Midlands parkway at least there is a active airport connection,

There is no mention of “Airport” in the East Midlands Parkway name.

EMD is more a glorified park & ride than a meaningful airport interchange,

It’s a “Parkway” station, what did you expect?!

 

[Bald Rick]

Now, the choices from St Albans are to go into London St Pancras and back out again, or to change twice - at Luton or Bedford onto the EMR electric train, then at Wellingborough or Kettering (can't remember which!) onto the EMR diesel train. It is also either more expensive (London route) or less reliable (multiple changes route).

Having done it several times the changes are fairly straightforward and relatively short connections in the standard hour. Though it would be less easy with a toddler and a buggy, but definitely doable.

Northbound it is around a 10 minute connection at Luton airport (the best place to change northbound), and there is a 1 minute connection there if you are fleet of foot (I have made this repeatedly). It requires a crossing of the footbridge. Then a 6-9 minute connection at Kettering, again crossing the footbridge.

Southbound it’s typically 9-14 minutes at Kettering (there are exceptions) and 4-5 mins at Luton or Luton AP.

Because of the structure of the timetable, the connections at Kettering are very reliable (I’ve never missed one), further south the frequency if TL services is such that by using Real Time Trains (for example) any late running can usually be covered by catching a different service.

Agreed the incentive (even with free travel) - to go north on East Midlands means a change twice or circulate via St Pancras which basically is a "no" - a few timetables ago there was a Luton Airport Parkway stop on the slow Nottingham which worked very well (and that call always seemed to pick up around 50 or so passengers so it seemed reasonable and provided decent connectivity)

The Nottingham ‘slow’ that picked up at LTN also called at Bedford and Wellingboro’, some of those 50 were for those locations.

There is a market, but it isn‘t big. And certainly not big enough for a St Albans call.

 

[cle]

Well it'd be more useful than East Midlands parkway at least there is a active airport connection, EMD is more a glorified park & ride than a meaningful airport interchange,

And the airport is not really a signficant one. 5am bucket and spades, plus the obligatory regional KLM connect.

Whereas Luton has evolved quite respectably, and the people mover helps that further.

The near equivalent of St Albans on the ECML is Welwyn Garden City not Stevenage. The MML near equivalent of Stevenage is Luton.

I meant in a rail sense, and the classic outer intercity calls. Admittedly Luton was that, no longer. But so was/is Stevenage.

 

[Helvellyn]

It's a shame EMR couldn't have taken the five 360/2s (I know one is now scrapped) alongside the 21 360/1s. If the wires got to Leicester (with a fifth platform) then the EMR Connect service could have been 12-car 360 from St Pancras to Kettering, then split with 8-cars to Leicester and 4-cars to Corby. It could probably be done with current service, with a 4-car/4-car split but some of the current services are getting to the point where they'd benefit from being 12-cars in the peaks so the fleet wouldn't stretch to that.

 

[43096]

It's a shame EMR couldn't have taken the five 360/2s (I know one is now scrapped)

Two have been scrapped.

 

[edwin_m]

It's a shame EMR couldn't have taken the five 360/2s (I know one is now scrapped) alongside the 21 360/1s. If the wires got to Leicester (with a fifth platform) then the EMR Connect service could have been 12-car 360 from St Pancras to Kettering, then split with 8-cars to Leicester and 4-cars to Corby. It could probably be done with current service, with a 4-car/4-car split but some of the current services are getting to the point where they'd benefit from being 12-cars in the peaks so the fleet wouldn't stretch to that.

With a long stop at Kettering to split/join and be overtaken, London passengers would use the overtaking train instead. So this proposal would only benefit non-London passengers, a small minority of the total market.

 

[stevieinselby]

It's the ongoing debate about whether "Intercity" trains are there fundamentally to serve cities out of London or its outer dormitory suburbs.

My personal view is the former.

The question isn't whether EMR should be providing an intercity service from St Albans to London – easy answer, no, there is a fast Thameslink every 15 minutes that covers that market – it's whether they should be providing an intercity service between St Albans (population about 90k and on a par with Bedford) to points north ... or at the very least, facilitating interchange between TL and EMR services so that you don't need to change twice to get to Leicester and Nottingham, and three times to get to Sheffield, if you don't want the cost of going in to London and back out again.

 

[Sealink]

St. Albans is lovely.

Really want to travel on the once a day Euston St Alban's Abbey service

 

[Richardr]

The question isn't whether EMR should be providing an intercity service from St Albans to London – easy answer, no, there is a fast Thameslink every 15 minutes that covers that market – it's whether they should be providing an intercity service between St Albans (population about 90k and on a par with Bedford) to points north ... or at the very least, facilitating interchange between TL and EMR services so that you don't need to change twice to get to Leicester and Nottingham, and three times to get to Sheffield, if you don't want the cost of going in to London and back out again.

Bedford is the northern most station on Thameslink, so certainly needs EMR north in a way St Albans doesn't. I'm off to Sheffield next week from St Albans and it is much easier to go via St Pancras which doesn't seem right in some way, but it is the stopping patterns of the EMR further north of St Albans, rather than St Albans itself, that causes the issue.

 

[cle]

St. Albans is lovely.

Really want to travel on the once a day Euston St Alban's Abbey service

You'll get a seat!

Bedford is the northern most station on Thameslink, so certainly needs EMR north in a way St Albans doesn't. I'm off to Sheffield next week from St Albans and it is much easier to go via St Pancras which doesn't seem right in some way, but it is the stopping patterns of the EMR further north of St Albans, rather than St Albans itself, that causes the issue.

This used to be Luton and was very easy. I expect that EWR (which will get to Bedford, if not Cambridge) - will ensure Bedford has an even larger role as a hub in future, and I'm sure will have both Nottingham and Sheffield options. And especially if the Universal theme park happens too.

 

[Haywain]

I have just found this thread and notice there are a number of posts stating that there is no demand to travel north from St Albans. I would argue that this is because the East Midlands franchise holders over the last 30 years have gradually reduced service levels to significantly discourage any demand, rather than look to grow it. The Luton conurbation has a population of around a quarter of a million but even before the advent of the Connect services, and complete loss of proper inter-city services, it was often the case that travelling via London was cheaper with Advance fares than getting a direct journey - sometimes stopping at Luton on the way through. Now that a number of changes are required who would choose rail against driving, if they have that option, to get to significant rail served towns/cities in the East Midlands?

I am not convinced the St Albans City should have an EMR service, but this is more to do with the difficulties of using platform 4 at the station then demand. However, the need to make 3 changes to get to Derby or Sheffield - heaven forbid you want to go further in south Yorkshire! - should be unacceptable.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

You'll get a seat!

This used to be Luton and was very easy. I expect that EWR (which will get to Bedford, if not Cambridge) - will ensure Bedford has an even larger role as a hub in future, and I'm sure will have both Nottingham and Sheffield options. And especially if the Universal theme park happens too.

There is some pressure to increase usage of Luton Airport as an airport - not supported by most locals of course - but there is still a busy airport there with desire to serve somewhere a bit more that Corby - such that the old slow Nottingham etc is still relevant in my view. (it was suggested by the DfT it would get a call in the then diesel Corby but calling the Nottingham genuinly created a market IMHO)

No St Alban's does not need an EMT call at all (I have been here long ago to recall it) - but an easy call at LAP was useful and of use for non London calls to somewhere other than London. Compare Stevenage to both Luton and Watford for call to the North.

 

[A0wen]

The question isn't whether EMR should be providing an intercity service from St Albans to London – easy answer, no, there is a fast Thameslink every 15 minutes that covers that market – it's whether they should be providing an intercity service between St Albans (population about 90k and on a par with Bedford) to points north ... or at the very least, facilitating interchange between TL and EMR services so that you don't need to change twice to get to Leicester and Nottingham, and three times to get to Sheffield, if you don't want the cost of going in to London and back out again.

But what's the difference between St Albans and Hatfield or Welwyn Garden City for example where you potentially have the choice of 2 changes or heading into / out of London if the LNER / Grand Central / Lumo you want doesn't stop at Stevenage ?

 

[Bevan Price]

This is illustrated on Sundays when the hourly Nottingham train stops at Bedford and is packed out between there and London. A weekday call at St Albans would be far worse.

That problem arises partly because some pillo*k thinks that 5 coach trains - with almost 1/3rd of the space wasted on 1st class - are adequate for routes like MML. Even 7 coach trains are inadequate
(Do any 7 coach formations still remain? not used any MML trains since before Covid, and even then was only an occasional user).

 

[Starmill]

Two very simple reasons:

1) Extending all EMR journey times by 4 minutes to enable them to call would cause significant disbenefit to all the passengers who use them (and a reasonable drop in revenue), for comparitivelyvery minor benefit in terms of additional revenue from the tiny number who would use the services going north.

2) Filling EMR trains with London - St Albans passengers would not be a good use of their capacity. You could make them pick up / set down only, but enforcing that when an EMR pulls into Platform 3 with 500 people waiting for a following Thameslink - well good luck.

If you wanted to stop some trains I'm pretty sure you could without much difficulty. The 0432 from Corby would be near enough empty, has a comfortable 15 minute turnaround time, and already has an allowance of a minute and a half there anyway, and would be very unlikely to fatally clash with anything arriving at London St Pancras at 0604 instead of 0602.

However, no trains at times when connecting with services towards Leicester is convenient would be calling. And of course EMR don't have rights to serve St Albans City so they'd have to go through all that paperwork for a single figure number of stops per day.

 

[swt_passenger]

That problem arises partly because some pillo*k thinks that 5 coach trains - with almost 1/3rd of the space wasted on 1st class - are adequate for routes like MML. Even 7 coach trains are inadequate
(Do any 7 coach formations still remain? not used any MML trains since before Covid, and even then was only an occasional user).

There are 4 x 7 car, 23 x 5 car, as per Wikipedia. which gives an idea of the probability of seeing a 7…

 

[edwin_m]

That problem arises partly because some pillo*k thinks that 5 coach trains - with almost 1/3rd of the space wasted on 1st class - are adequate for routes like MML. Even 7 coach trains are inadequate
(Do any 7 coach formations still remain? not used any MML trains since before Covid, and even then was only an occasional user).

The forthcoming new fleet is 5-car units with more seats than the existing 7-cars. Some services will be 10-car but probably not enough.

With Thameslink running 12-car sets at frequent intervals, there are clearly very many passengers using these stations, and they would still overcrowd a stopping EMR service even if it had more capacity. It's pointless carrying fresh air as far afield as Sheffield simply to provide capacity between London and St Albans.

If this was done then pick up and set down only restrictions would be essential. These would have to be managed at the barriers at St Pancras (anyone arriving at the high level platforms facing a penalty and anyone trying to depart there being turned away), but it would create holdups and also prevent EMR stopping the Corby trains there - for which there could be more of a case.

 

[Bald Rick]

market – it's whether they should be providing an intercity service between St Albans (population about 90k and on a par with Bedford) to points north

St Albans is much smaller than Bedford in population terms.

If you wanted to stop some trains I'm pretty sure you could without much difficulty. The 0432 from Corby would be near enough empty, has a comfortable 15 minute turnaround time, and already has an allowance of a minute and a half there anyway, and would be very unlikely to fatally clash with anything arriving at London St Pancras at 0604 instead of 0602.

come on. 0432 ex Corby!!!

 

[Starmill]

come on. 0432 ex Corby!!!

My next paragraph does essentially say that

 

[stevieinselby]

That problem arises partly because some pillo*k thinks that 5 coach trains - with almost 1/3rd of the space wasted on 1st class - are adequate for routes like MML. Even 7 coach trains are inadequate
(Do any 7 coach formations still remain? not used any MML trains since before Covid, and even then was only an occasional user).

There were four 7-car sets out today (001, 002, 003 and 004), running 7 services to Sheffield and 7 services to Nottingham.

The forthcoming new fleet is 5-car units with more seats than the existing 7-cars.

A 7-car Meridian has more seats overall than a 5-car Aurora (342 v 301), but the Aurora has more standard class seats (254 v 236).

St Albans is much smaller than Bedford in population terms.

Marginally, not much, according to https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-cities-population-1000/ , although as with all of these things it does depend exactly where you draw the boundaries.
Bedford: 92,405
St Albans: 86,961

 

[Gaelan]

But, is there really enough demand for this to make it worthwhile running an additional 8-12 car EMU between Bedford and Kettering? The open data doesn't fill me with hope.

The danger with using ticketing data for planning is that it doesn't reflect the effect service provision has on ticket sales - it's possible (though I can't speak to whether it's true in this case) that plenty of passengers have looked at the rail route from St Albans to Sheffield, and balked at the complexity, either deciding to drive or not travel.

Anecdotally, I've made this journey (well, Harpenden, not St Albans) once myself, and know someone else who lives there and goes to uni in Sheffield. Obviously it's hard to draw any meaningful sense of demand from a couple anecdotes, but obviously it's not out of the question.

Another consideration would be connectivity to points further north - could a well-timed connection onto CrossCountry at Sheffield provide a more attractive journey to Scotland (and elsewhere on the northern ECML)? Currently the realistic options are to change in London for the ECML, or drive to an ECML station.

 

[Bald Rick]

Currently the realistic options are to change in London for the ECML, or drive to an ECML station.

or substitute ‘E‘ for ‘W’ which is what I do.

 

[tram21]

Well it'd be more useful than East Midlands parkway at least there is a active airport connection, EMD is more a glorified park & ride than a meaningful airport interchange,

Remember that there's now a DRT from East Midlands Parkway to the airport making it a pretty good connection now!

 

[stevieinselby]

But what's the difference between St Albans and Hatfield or Welwyn Garden City for example where you potentially have the choice of 2 changes or heading into / out of London if the LNER / Grand Central / Lumo you want doesn't stop at Stevenage ?

There's a good argument for stopping the Thameslink Peterborough trains at Welwyn Garden City at least, to improve connectivity between ECML services and the northern suburbs and dormitory towns around London.

 

[jagardner1984]

This thread made me think of the discussion and drive for East west Rail - eg not specifically about stopping Intercity trains at St Albans - but how far out do you need to go before you pass the frustration point where it is irritating to travel in the wrong direction into London, but insufficiently far to stop intercity trains without slowing long distance travellers unnecessarily.

It would seem ideal, going forward, for there to be a decently speedy route linking the main lines, and ideally the Great Eastern and great western too, with those being part of regular stopping patterns so that people from WCML stations could travel reasonably to northern ECML stations where the journey planner would currently route them via London. Agreeing a point for that route to cross the MML and stopping a reasonable number of trains there, would seem a very sensible idea - in the same way as Orbirail, or east west rail, or whatever we want to call it - should really exist on a number of levels and a number of crossing points, for example Luton To Stevenage, a short 14 mile hop just shy of half an hour by road, the rail journey takes 2 and a half times as long (even the bus is a little quicker), and involves a cross platform change at St Pancras - 33 miles away. These are not insignificant settlements, and London is far from the only destination.

 

[JonathanH]

Agreeing a point for that route to cross the MML and stopping a reasonable number of trains there, would seem a very sensible idea - in the same way as Orbirail, or east west rail, or whatever we want to call it - should really exist on a number of levels and a number of crossing points, for example Luton To Stevenage, a short 14 mile hop just shy of half an hour by road, the rail journey takes 2 and a half times as long (even the bus is a little quicker), and involves a cross platform change at St Pancras - 33 miles away. These are not insignificant settlements, and London is far from the only destination.

That all depends on what the railway is for. It does best when there are a large number of people to transport on a concentrated basis - eg Stevenage to London, Luton to London.

The number of people who need to travel from Luton to Stevenage is much smaller, although connections to Cambridge could influence demand. If there is a bus, that might mean there doesn't need to be a train, although it is well known that some people aren't prepared to use buses. Linking Luton to Stevenage by train is not a guaranteed success story.

The other point is that people often take jobs and decide where they live having considered what transport links exist. It takes a long time for those patterns to change after additional direct services are introduced

 

[stevieinselby]

This thread made me think of the discussion and drive for East west Rail - eg not specifically about stopping Intercity trains at St Albans - but how far out do you need to go before you pass the frustration point where it is irritating to travel in the wrong direction into London, but insufficiently far to stop intercity trains without slowing long distance travellers unnecessarily.

I did wonder if it made a difference to fares – so it wouldn't just be a psychological irritation to have to travel the wrong way to London and then speed back through your home station, but would actually cost you more money – but there appear to be 3 different super-off-peak fares for Sheffield to St Albans:

• Super Off-Peak Single​

  Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
  £64.10

• Super Off-Peak Single​

  Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals.
  £79.20

• Super Off-Peak Single​

  Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Chesterfield.
  £106.10

where somehow the most flexible ticket allowing travel on any route including via London is the cheapest. Which is, frankly, nuts.

 

[JonathanH]

I did wonder if it made a difference to fares – so it wouldn't just be a psychological irritation to have to travel the wrong way to London and then speed back through your home station, but would actually cost you more money – but there appear to be 3 different super-off-peak fares for Sheffield to St Albans:

• Super Off-Peak Single​

  Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
  £64.10

• Super Off-Peak Single​

  Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals.
  £79.20

• Super Off-Peak Single​

  Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Chesterfield.
  £106.10

where somehow the most flexible ticket allowing travel on any route including via London is the cheapest. Which is, frankly, nuts.

That is because the any permitted fare is part of the LNER single leg pricing switch, and the others are just less than the return fare.

Try comparing the price of a return journey, and then the fares are 'in the right order'.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Remember that there's now a DRT from East Midlands Parkway to the airport making it a pretty good connection now!

Oh yeah Nottsbus I redownloaded the app but yet to use it. Not to go off topic but I used the Ting DRT from St neots during December and it was pretty painful trying to get it booked.

 

[stevieinselby]

That is because the any permitted fare is part of the LNER single leg pricing switch, and the others are just less than the return fare.

Try comparing the price of a return journey, and then the fares are 'in the right order'.

Ah, that makes sense. So a super-off-peak return is about £30 cheaper going Not London, and an off-peak return is £50 cheaper going Not London ... that's definitely in the territory where it is more than a psychological irritation if your only viable journey is into London and back out again!