Had to break through unmanned barriers at Burgess hill tonight

[JonathanH]

The gatelines at GTR stations are only really there to deter casual fare evasion, not actually control revenue loss. The attendants do not issue tickets or fines to anyone, the only thing they can do is point passengers to the ticket machines to buy a ticket. That isn't actually a bad thing, but it does have to be backed up by occasional proper revenue blocks.

 

[Bluejays]

Another thing I've thought with these unstaffed barriers, is you'd think the member of staff would position themselves by the barriers when a peak train arrives, rather than sitting under the heater in the booking hall where nothing's going on, and where there is usually a ticket office member of staff also doing nothing who could assist should someone require it

The member of staff is generally at the main set of barriers of course, from where they can communicate with the other sets of barriers. So I'm not quite sure what this suggestion is rooted in.

 

[mrcheek]

I cant believe some people are criticising OP here.

If you are being prevented from exiting, and have a valid ticket, then you are entitled to find alternative means of exiting. As long as youre not vandalising the gate or anything like that.

I recently did an All Line Rover, which of course for some reason works sometimes but not others (often on the same gate...)
A couple of times it wouldnt work, and there were no staff anywhere in sight, so I sneaked up behind someone using the luggage barrier, and went through with them. Simple.

 

[Somewhere]

Can you claim delay repay if you're prevented from exiting a station for an unreasonable length of time?

The member of staff is generally at the main set of barriers of course, from where they can communicate with the other sets of barriers. So I'm not quite sure what this suggestion is rooted in.

The suggestion is the member of staff should be positioned where the passengers are. Leaving the other member of staff to staff the main set of barriers. Or control the main set from the other set

 

[Bletchleyite]

I cant believe some people are criticising OP here.

If you are being prevented from exiting, and have a valid ticket, then you are entitled to find alternative means of exiting. As long as youre not vandalising the gate or anything like that.

It is an offence, but I have never heard of a mainline TOC prosecuting for it. TfL do, though, there was a recent case on here though I forget the outcome.

 

[Sonic1234]

It is an offence, but I have never heard of a mainline TOC prosecuting for it. TfL do, though, there was a recent case on here though I forget the outcome.

If there's someone there to catch you, there's someone there to let you through.

It's especially bad on GTR as they block all Advance tickets - obviously have no confidence in their On Board Supervisors to check tickets!

The gatelines at GTR stations are only really there to deter casual fare evasion

Like most security - it's there to put off those who are thinking of evading fares/shoplifting etc. It's of little use against those determined to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like most security - it's there to put off those who are thinking of evading fares/shoplifting etc. It's of little use against those determined to.

They provide the challenge for the very large "pay when challenged" group.

 

[bearhugger]

I recently did an All Line Rover, which of course for some reason works sometimes but not others (often on the same gate...)
A couple of times it wouldnt work, and there were no staff anywhere in sight, so I sneaked up behind someone using the luggage barrier, and went through with them. Simple.

In my fairly limited experience using rover & ranger tickets, the tickets will often let you out through gatelines but not back in, so needing to seek assistance from staff.

 

[Somewhere]

Like most security - it's there to put off those who are thinking of evading fares/shoplifting etc. It's of little use against those determined to.

No different to those barriers in Sainsbury's where you have to scan your receipt. I've yet to be challenged by anyone when I've pushed through them after I've packed all my shopping and put my receipt away and got my hands full. The first person who stops me is committing the offence of common assault. The same would apply to any member of railway staff. Common assault trumps any byelaw offence of not using the barriers properly

 

[freddie1729]

Not every passenger will have the thought of mind to do so is the issue. Also unmanned Gates should truly be left open. If someone were to get stuck in the narrow gate they'd be in for a squeeze with possibly no one to respond to it. It isn't a surprise how many people fail to use the right size gate based on if they have children, luggage, shopping, buggy etc. All a trap hazard.

This happened to me once at a tube station and my bag was stuck in the barriers for a good few minutes while I tried to free it with no help from staff.

 

[Dr Hoo]

No different to those barriers in Sainsbury's where you have to scan your receipt. I've yet to be challenged by anyone when I've pushed through them after I've packed all my shopping and put my receipt away and got my hands full. The first person who stops me is committing the offence of common assault. The same would apply to any member of railway staff. Common assault trumps any byelaw offence of not using the barriers properly

Can I ask why you put your receipt away just before it’s needed to scan?

Do we expect passengers to put their tickets away immediately before they approach barriers or inspection lines?

Do we simply allow everybody in life to just ‘push through’, ready to file a common assault complaint?

 

[Somewhere]

Can I ask why you put your receipt away just before it’s needed to scan?

Do we expect passengers to put their tickets away immediately before they approach barriers or inspection lines?

Do we simply allow everybody in life to just ‘push through’, ready to file a common assault complaint?

Because I didn't know it was needed, and there's no obvious signage to keep it in my hand. Plus my hands are full and I'm not able to scan my receipt and carry my shopping.
The OP had their ticket available for inspection. The barriers wouldn't accept it and there were no staff on hand to assist.
Yes, if organisations are too lazy and inept to do their jobs properly, then it is fine to just force your way through. If its an issue, they can provide staff to catch those forcing their way through. If they can do that, they can provide staff to staff the barriers.

 

[Bluejays]

Can you claim delay repay if you're prevented from exiting a station for an unreasonable length of time?


The suggestion is the member of staff should be positioned where the passengers are. Leaving the other member of staff to staff the main set of barriers. Or control the main set from the other set

But that's the point, they normally are. The member of staff is normally at the main(normally busiest) set of barriers, with a video link to the other barriers. So if they did your suggestion all that would happen is that a different set of barriers would be unstaffed.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Because I didn't know it was needed, and there's no obvious signage to keep it in my hand. Plus my hands are full and I'm not able to scan my receipt and carry my shopping.
The OP had their ticket available for inspection. The barriers wouldn't accept it and there were no staff on hand to assist.
Yes, if organisations are too lazy and inept to do their jobs properly, then it is fine to just force your way through. If its an issue, they can provide staff to catch those forcing their way through. If they can do that, they can provide staff to staff the barriers.

Your original post seemed to suggest that you always push through, even after first time ignorance, and now always do it ‘because your hands are full’.

Presumably passengers should just push through barriers if their hands are ‘full’ (e.g. dog lead, walking stick or handbag).

This would be really interesting at airports. “Can I see your ticket/ boarding card/ passport/ visa/ luggage/ machine pistol you’ve got in that shoulder holster…” “No my hands are full. I’m just pushing through…”

 

[JonathanH]

But that's the point, they normally are. The member of staff is normally at the main(normally busiest) set of barriers, with a video link to the other barriers. So if they did your suggestion all that would happen is that a different set of barriers would be unstaffed.

They are usually at the set of barriers inside the station building, whether those are busiest or not. There are numerous places on the GTR network where the member of staff is not at the busiest set of barriers.

 

[Somewhere]

Your original post seemed to suggest that you always push through, even after first time ignorance, and now always do it ‘because your hands are full’.

Presumably passengers should just push through barriers if their hands are ‘full’ (e.g. dog lead, walking stick or handbag).

This would be really interesting at airports. “Can I see your ticket/ boarding card/ passport/ visa/ luggage/ machine pistol you’ve got in that shoulder holster…” “No my hands are full. I’m just pushing through…”

Its slightly different at an airport where you have to pass through security, to a supermarket where you've paid for your goods but Sainsbury's/Tescos/whoever just scrimp on staff costs and make life difficult for everyone. They don't pay me to scan my shopping, so why should I prove to a barcode scanner that I'm in possession of a receipt?

They are usually at the set of barriers inside the station building, whether those are busiest or not. There are numerous places on the GTR network where the member of staff is not at the busiest set of barriers.

The main barriers are only the busiest at one time of day. At the opposite rush hour, the other barriers will be busiest. Indeed, in the evening, they will be busier as everyone will all turn up at the same time as the train turns up, rather than the main barriers where there's a steady dribble of passengers. So, in theory, your argument suggests the unstaffed barriers are in fact the busiest

 

[Dr Hoo]

Its slightly different at an airport where you have to pass through security, to a supermarket where you've paid for your goods but Sainsbury's/Tescos/whoever just scrimp on staff costs and make life difficult for everyone. They don't pay me to scan my shopping, so why should I prove to a barcode scanner that I'm in possession of a receipt?

I know that supermarket analogies never go down particularly well on these forums but I see many similarities between self-scan shopping and train tickets. The stations on my local line have all been completely unstaffed since way back in BR days. These days many people have 'self serviced' via a ticket vending machine, ticket on departure, print at home, barcode on mobile phone, bought one from a mate down the pub who's an expert with Photoshop or whatever rather than using a staffed booking office.

There are many benefits to the shopper from self-scanning and as a regular Sainsbury's customer I was an early adopter. Altogether a handier experience in my view. And scanning a receipt is a small penalty to pay in order to deter somebody else from waltzing through with bulging bags of stolen spirit bottles, etc. that law-abiding customers end up having to pay for in generally higher prices.

Without getting bogged down in the precise legal differences between a railway ticket and a 'receipt' a straightforward scan on exit in either case hardly seems like a big deal.

At the risk of drawing attention common methods of fare evasion; people will often seek to avoid having their 'ticket' scanned or presented at a barrier so that it can be fraudulently refunded, re-used, sold on or whatever (assuming that isn't a fake or has no supporting discount card or age entitlement anyway). Barging through or tailgating sets a lot of alarm bells ringing in rail staffs' minds.

 

[Somewhere]

No alarm bells ringing in the minds of non-present staff. I think that's the point of this thread

 

[Dr Hoo]

No alarm bells ringing in the minds of non-present staff. I think that's the point of this thread

I am mildly surprised that 'satellite' barrier lines are not in any way connected to the control panel at the staffed line (beyond presumably a small video scanner that you pop your ticket under, if you have one). Does the member of staff then have to traipse over to let the passenger in or out?

If there is some form of control link I am then rather surprised that it doesn't at least 'beep' or whatever when somebody forces the gates open.

 

[Somewhere]

The staff at the main barrier line can open the gates remotely.
So what if the barriers beep if forced? The person forcing them will be half a mile down the road before the staff member realises what's going on

 

[6Gman]

Exactly. I thought it was mandatory to have each gateline manned


Indeed. I had no idea. I made this post assuming it was an error to have left it unmanned. Can't believe that is actual policy

It is.

But it can be done remotely.

At the two locations I have encountered this (Crewe and Snow Hill) it was pretty straightforward.

Press the button, wave the ticket in the appropriate direction, allowed through.

 

[Benjwri]

So what if the barriers beep if forced? The person forcing them will be half a mile down the road before the staff member realises what's going on

I think people are underestimating the psychological aspect of barriers. On a train I took yesterday at almost every station people were getting on and buying from the guard, despite being penalty fare stations with ticket machines and a few with ticket offices open, with plenty of posters. At Bath, which has a remote gateline, far more people got on and no one bought from the guard, they all had tickets. The proportion of people who pay when challenged is far greater than those that will push through a gate. As for the beep no it wont, but when staff are around it provides an indicator, and I'm sure it will deter some people from doing it in future. From barriers already have speakers to make sounds, might as well program it.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think people are underestimating the psychological aspect of barriers. On a train I took yesterday at almost every station people were getting on and buying from the guard, despite being penalty fare stations with ticket machines and a few with ticket offices open, with plenty of posters. At Bath, which has a remote gateline, far more people got on and no one bought from the guard, they all had tickets. The proportion of people who pay when challenged is far greater than those that will push through a gate. As for the beep no it wont, but when staff are around it provides an indicator, and I'm sure it will deter some people from doing it in future. From barriers already have speakers to make sounds, might as well program it.

Thanks. This is sort of what I am groping towards.

Just suppose that a busy London commuter station on the Brighton Line has a booking hall and staffed barrier line on the Up/West side and a satellite unstaffed barrier line handy for the car park on the Down/East side, used by many homebound passengers in the evening. If it records several hundred 'barge through' beeps every evening this might be a clue that a lot of people are probably only buying single tickets from Victoria to Battersea Park for their homeward journeys. It might be worth doing a few special staffed checks or even staffing the satellite line in the evenings.

Plenty of other hypothetical scenarios available but I'm sure that people get the general idea.

 

[Somewhere]

I'm referring to the one passenger with a valid ticket barging through the barriers, as per the original post. Not hundreds of commuters getting off a peak train barging through the barriers

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm referring to the one passenger with a valid ticket barging through the barriers, as per the original post. Not hundreds of commuters getting off a peak train barging through the barriers

Yes, I am aware of that but am trying to understand ways in which satellite barriers might be improved generally.

 

[Somewhere]

Barriers need to be able and programmed to accept valid tickets. All the time we have paper tickets which can hold very limited information, unless the satellite barriers can read what's printed on the ticket Ike a human can (which shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibilities), then they're not going to be effective.
And at peak times, staff should be stationed at the satellite barriers rather than the quiet ones. And there needs to be barriers set for entry as well as exit (if there isn't enough room for this, then perhaps the location is unsuitable for barriers)

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes, but the requirement is only to have an attendant at one set of barriers. Other barriers can be remotely monitored. Many Southern stations are set up like this.

Yes it was like this when i was at Reigate 2 years ago, the barrier wouldn't accept my rover ticket but i was let through after i showed it to the camera.

 

[Kite159]

The staff at the main barrier line can open the gates remotely.
So what if the barriers beep if forced? The person forcing them will be half a mile down the road before the staff member realises what's going on

Especially if they are poorly trained agency staff whom don't give a toss about providing any sort of customer service. The sort which will ignore the remote help-point as it's too much like hard work.
The sort who will spend time chatting away on their phone about which pub to visit that evening once they had finished etc ignoring passengers

 

[infobleep]

This doesn't sound like a likely scenario at any station where this arrangement is in use.

But, you would press the button on the barrier assistance kiosk/help point thing on the other side, explain the situation, and the person on the other side of the station monitoring all the barriers would come and help you when they get a chance to.

This arrangement is used all over the southern network and works fine. Even if it's not quite as good as a fully manned barrier.

I am surprised more train operating companies don't use this method. Some leave some barriers unmanned at times, even when all barriers are manned at other times.

They are usually at the set of barriers inside the station building, whether those are busiest or not. There are numerous places on the GTR network where the member of staff is not at the busiest set of barriers.

Does anyone know why they do this, as in be in the station building if it isn't the busiest?

 

[MrJeeves]

Perhaps I was supposed to use the call for assistance.

Indeed.

Attached is a photo from Wikipedia of the side gate on platform 1 at Burgess Hill, taken by David Wheatley within the last year.

Hello! You found me!

I'm not passing through Burgess Hill today (Wivelsfield instead) or I'd take another picture showing the setup more clearly.

You can't rely on anyone answering the Help Point. They are rarely answered in my experience. (Most recently at Harrietsham where I was trying to report a malfunctioning ticket machine)

The help point is separate to the remote gateline control call point.

Shouldn't have to call if you have put a ticket in which has rejected, for a remote unmanned gate. If I remember correctly it should then trigger the camera and connect to the manned gateline point. Maybe I have this wrong but I thought they are supposed to be supervised from another set of gates, not totally unmanned

Not the case at Burgess Hill at least. You do have to initiate a call from the remote gateline control call point, where you can then present your ticket and the staff member can open the barrier for you.

It's especially bad on GTR as they block all Advance tickets - obviously have no confidence in their On Board Supervisors to check tickets!

Occam's Razor — are they blocking them, or have they just not gotten Cubic to set up the gatelines correctly?

All the time we have paper tickets which can hold very limited information, unless the satellite barriers can read what's printed on the ticket Ike a human can (which shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibilities), then they're not going to be effective.

And as long as we have Cubic gatelines that read nothing but the bare minimum from a E-Ticket, it'll be no better either!

Does anyone know why they do this, as in be in the station building if it isn't the busiest?

Warmth and shield from rain? Often have wall-mounted heat lamps and seating if required too. Also stationed closer to the ticket office in many instances, so easier to say "can you watch the barriers while I pop to the loo?" if the station is dual-staffed at the time.