Blackpool Heritage Tram Operations Suspended

[Bletchleyite]

I don't disagree with you!

Sadly there are plenty who see the cost of everything and the value of nothing. You can see it from the local authority perspective too: heritage trams or social care. Sad that there has to be a choice, but there we go.

Well marketed and volunteer staffed, it really should be possible to make money from a heritage operation. It's not well marketed at present, certainly.

 

[tram21]

Well marketed and volunteer staffed, it really should be possible to make money from a heritage operation. It's not well marketed at present, certainly.

Totally agree. It doesn't need to retract from the council's finances/ Blackpool Transport's finances.

A rethink of the operation probably is in order. It could be far better marketed, more efficiently operated and quite frankly cost a bit more, if that's what's needed for them to continue operating.

 

[Tramfan]

I personally used to prefer the method of operation prior to COVID which was more of a hop on hop off way of working with trams running to a timetable, rather than having to look and pre-book.

Holidaymakers generally seem to know how to get themselves on an illumations tour, but as has been mentioned several times on here - the heritage operation seems to be poorly marketed. It's still possible to occasionally see people trying to flag down a heritage tram from one of the Flexity platforms for example. There's also plenty of people that just see the heritage trams as being expensive, as they can't use the day ticket they've bought on a Flexity on them, so just don't bother.

Although I've often wished we'd had the widened Balloon Cars operating the intermediate Cleveleys service that was talked about - stopping at the platforms and relieving some of the overcrowding, it did feel a bit weird going down the prom on 718 on normal service earlier this year. The conductors were having to explain to people at every stop that it was doing a normal service, and they could use their normal tickets onboard. I do wonder how many of those passengers would then want to pay more money for a tour - they've got their old tram ride, even if to the enthusiast it's a modernised flat front Balloon with wide door mods and bus seats.

A hop on hop off service from Pleasure Beach to North Pier on an open topper or stuff like 147, 700, 717, 66 etc running every 30 mins 10am to 5pm, leaving at easy to remember, published times - properly marketed, with add on tickets for those already with Flexity tickets etc. would be great.

As an aside - I wonder how much better Blackpool Transport's finances would be if the conductors could actually get round and take all the fares from the crush loaded Flexity services during the main season, not to mention those that give up and get a taxi after watching trams passing by full and not stopping.

 

[cool110]

...There's also plenty of people that just see the heritage trams as being expensive, as they can't use the day ticket they've bought on a Flexity on them, so just don't bother.

A hop on hop off service from Pleasure Beach to North Pier on an open topper or stuff like 147, 700, 717, 66 etc running every 30 mins 10am to 5pm, leaving at easy to remember, published times - properly marketed, with add on tickets for those already with Flexity tickets etc. would be great.

The thing is it that does work the other way around. A day ticket from a heritage tram is also valid on Flexity and bus, (they can also be bought on those and in app, but you have to know to ask for one / scroll all the way down). Some way of selling an excess from the standard day ticket to heritage inclusive version would be a good improvement.

 

[mjc]

Is this a universal phenomenon? Llandudno appears to be booming at the moment whereas Rhyl is struggling. That does feed into the theory that a shabby resort attracts fewer visitors, leading to further decline.

I'm not sure Llandudno hotels are booming. Certainly as a day trip destination it gets busy, and some of the coach hotels keep going but there are some big hotels which have have been converted to residential and others lying empty including some on the seafront.

 

[Harpo]

Sadly there are plenty who see the cost of everything and the value of nothing. You can see it from the local authority perspective too: heritage trams or social care. Sad that there has to be a choice, but there we go.

With the dire state that most local authority finances have been pushed into, many can’t sustain anything that doesn’t cover its direct costs, i.e. make a profit for the council.

Public toilets, libraries, swimming pools, health centres, recycling facilities and much more are being closed and car parking charges extended and increased.

Gone are the days of local authorities being able to consider the bigger picture.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm not sure Llandudno hotels are booming. Certainly as a day trip destination it gets busy, and some of the coach hotels keep going but there are some big hotels which have have been converted to residential and others lying empty including some on the seafront.

Day tripping has definitely taken off. Loads of Japanese tourists coming in from Manchester and Liverpool for the day by train.

 

[Gostav]

With the dire state that most local authority finances have been pushed into, many can’t sustain anything that doesn’t cover its direct costs, i.e. make a profit for the council.

Public toilets, libraries, swimming pools, health centres, recycling facilities and much more are being closed and car parking charges extended and increased.

Gone are the days of local authorities being able to consider the bigger picture.

It's a good question - why are costs soaring for these institutions? Some heritage railways are also losing money and costs are spiralling out of control.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well marketed and volunteer staffed, it really should be possible to make money from a heritage operation. It's not well marketed at present, certainly.

I think the truth is that it isn’t easy to make money from heritage, even the long established heritage railways are struggling to do much more than break even at best.

It's a good question - why are costs soaring for these institutions? Some heritage railways are also losing money and costs are spiralling out of control.

Methods of working that were once acceptable are no longer acceptable, as we’ve seen with West Coast on the big railway. The ORR want more and more safety features and these cost money, lots of money. And the costs are disproportionately higher to meet those standards with heritage equipment as it costs more to retro-fit. I know the situation is a bit more complicated but we’ve also seen the effects of the ORR at Birkenhead tramway too.

On top of that, everything is just more expensive. And when you need bespoke manufactured parts for your kit, it gets more expensive again.

 

[Towers]

I think the truth is that it isn’t easy to make money from heritage, even the long established heritage railways are struggling to do much more than break even at best.

Methods of working that were once acceptable are no longer acceptable, as we’ve seen with West Coast on the big railway. The ORR want more and more safety features and these cost money, lots of money. And the costs are disproportionately higher to meet those standards with heritage equipment as it costs more to retro-fit. I know the situation is a bit more complicated but we’ve also seen the effects of the ORR at Birkenhead tramway too.

On top of that, everything is just more expensive. And when you need bespoke manufactured parts for your kit, it gets more expensive again.

There is such a thing as being proportionate, accepting that there will always be a degree of risk and allowing sensible measures to provide a reasonable degree of mitigation.

 

[Skymonster]

There is such a thing as being proportionate, accepting that there will always be a degree of risk and allowing sensible measures to provide a reasonable degree of mitigation.

That’s very easy to say, right up to the point when someone gets killed or badly injured (on a tram or on the road) and the investigation report says had the tram been fitted with a safety device - one that is mandated elsewhere - the accident may not have happened or the effects may have not been so catastrophic.

Look, I love the heritage trams and I’d be very disappointed if the operations ceased at Blackpool - though I’d be delighted to see an operational Balloon come to a more controlled environment such as Crich! - every cloud and all that. Sure, maybe no one has been killed by a heritage tram at Blackpool (except in Coronation Street) but that doesn’t mean its never going to happen. But, I believe its necessary to accept that as circumstances evolve and more sophisticated systems become available, we have to move with the times. In my opinion the right thing to do accept that change is necessary and to retrofit the heritage fleet. Or to constrain their operation (lower speeds or restricted to sections where they cannot conflict with other [road] vehicles) - but that just isn’t feasible in Blackpool given the need to integrate with the Flexity service. So, though I’d hate to see them go, if they can’t be retrofitted or its not affordable I think other less idyllic but maybe still palatable solutions have to be considered.

such as double manning each driving cab ought to allow for an appropriate degree of risk mitigation here.

Yeah right, two folks in the cab of a Balloon for a lengthy period. Pleasant - NOT! Each able to reach the controls so the second crew member could take over if necessary. Even less likely.

 

[Towers]

That’s very easy to say, right up to the point when someone gets killed or badly injured (on a tram or on the road) and the investigation report says had the tram been fitted with a safety device - one that is mandated elsewhere - the accident may not have happened or the effects may have not been so catastrophic.

Look, I love the heritage trams and I’d be very disappointed if the operations ceased at Blackpool - though I’d be delighted to see an operational Balloon come to a more controlled environment such as Crich! - every cloud and all that. Sure, maybe no one has been killed by a heritage tram at Blackpool (except in Coronation Street) but that doesn’t mean its never going to happen. But, I believe its necessary to accept that as circumstances evolve and more sophisticated systems become available, we have to move with the times. In my opinion the right thing to do accept that change is necessary and to retrofit the heritage fleet. Or to constrain their operation (lower speeds or restricted to sections where they cannot conflict with other [road] vehicles) - but that just isn’t feasible in Blackpool given the need to integrate with the Flexity service. So, though I’d hate to see them go, if they can’t be retrofitted or its not affordable I think other less idyllic but maybe still palatable solutions have to be considered.


Yeah right, two folks in the cab of a Balloon for a lengthy period. Pleasant - NOT! Each able to reach the controls so the second crew member could take over if necessary. Even less likely.

Any measures would simply need to be proportionate, and consistently so.

 

[Bikeman78]

There are plenty of examples on the continent where historic preserved trams run alongside modern stock. Brussels and Prague for example.

In Antwerpen they still run 1960s PCC cars on line 7 in normal public service. They clearly have some relatively modern equipment installed. They can run through the underground sections which have signals.

 

[DDB]

Has it actually been established what happened? Has there been an incident or near miss or some fault found in an inspection that effects all trams? Has there been ORR action?

 

[Harpo]

Has it actually been established what happened? Has there been an incident or near miss or some fault found in an inspection that effects all trams? Has there been ORR action?

The fully confirmed facts so far are that heritage tram operation is suspended and, er, that’s it.

 

[Krokodil]

Has it actually been established what happened? Has there been an incident or near miss or some fault found in an inspection that effects all trams? Has there been ORR action?

The requirement for safety devices seems to stem from the Sandilands derailment in 2016.

 

[Towers]

The requirement for safety devices seems to stem from the Sandilands derailment in 2016.

One theory would seem to be that BT had committed to this, and then simply didn’t act.

This is all pure speculation, of course!

 

[bluegoblin7]

Sure, maybe no one has been killed by a heritage tram at Blackpool

Except they have: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/fatal-accident-at-norbreck-blackpool

The utter contempt being shown by so many posters who seem to have such little grasp of the regulatory scene and history of Blackpool (before we even consider Sandilands) is astonishing.

Heritage tram operations have also been suspended in other European cities, and have always had to run within certain regulatory frameworks. The heritage fleet had to be fitted with various modifications post-2011 - if the Blackpool Heritage operation is commercially viable, further modifications will happen, I've absolutely no doubt.

I'm very pleased no one here is any position of decision/policy making or holds safety critical licenses on tramways; I'd be calling the ORR myself.

 

[Towers]

Except they have: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/fatal-accident-at-norbreck-blackpool

With respect, that was some 15 years ago. If that is a risk to which the ORR are responding, they’ve been a touch tardy with it!

An update has appeared, with a link to an article:

Accusations decision to suspend Blackpool's heritage trams taken for financial reasons

Sources have told The Blackpool Lead the decision was taken for mainly financial reasons

blackpool.thelead.uk

An interesting snippet is this:

“After Blackpool Transport said “ensuring the ongoing safety and sustainability of the service has become increasingly complex”, with the introduction of “advanced safety systems, including the obstacle detection assistance system and the collision and overspeed monitoring and prevention assistance system”, the ORR said it has not been involved and such safety measures are “not required” to run the vintage fleet, which can be safely driven by eye.“

So assuming this is accurate, it would appear that none of this has anything to do with the ORR at all.

Curious.

The utter contempt being shown by so many posters who seem to have such little grasp of the regulatory scene and history of Blackpool (before we even consider Sandilands) is astonishing.

Having read the linked article in full, this stands out:

A spokesperson for the ORR told The Blackpool Lead: “ORR has not been involved in Blackpool Transport’s decision.

“Heritage tramways are required to assess the risks relating to collision between heritage trams and members of the public and implement any reasonably practicable controls identified.

“This will include light-of-sight operation.

“We have not required them to install obstacle detection or overspeed technology.”

 

[Skymonster]

The plot thickens - especially in the context of any suspected ORR involvement.

Accusations decision to suspend Blackpool's heritage trams taken for financial reasons

Sources have told The Blackpool Lead the decision was taken for mainly financial reasons

blackpool.thelead.uk

A spokesperson for the ORR told The Blackpool Lead: “ORR has not been involved in Blackpool Transport’s decision.

“Heritage tramways are required to assess the risks relating to collision between heritage trams and members of the public and implement any reasonably practicable controls identified.

“This will include light-of-sight operation.

“We have not required them to install obstacle detection or overspeed technology.”

 

[trebor79]

To put it bluntly, perhaps the ORR need to wind their neck in a bit at times. There is such a thing as being proportionate, accepting that there will always be a degree of risk and allowing sensible measures to provide a reasonable degree of mitigation. In this instance, accepting the comparatively very low number of heritage movements, something achieveable such as double manning each driving cab ought to allow for an appropriate degree of risk mitigation here.

That’s very easy to say, right up to the point when someone gets killed or badly injured (on a tram or on the road) and the investigation report says had the tram been fitted with a safety device - one that is mandated elsewhere - the accident may not have happened or the effects may have not been so catastrophic.

Indeed. Double manning in itself may introduce other hazards - such as distraction if they start talking about the football or whatever.

 

[Towers]

Indeed. Double manning in itself may introduce other hazards - such as distraction if they start talking about the football or whatever.

As above, the ORR are in fact reported as having said that the matter has nothing to do with them and they are happy that the heritage fleet requires no further safety modifications and can be driven by ‘line of sight’.

I have amended a couple of my own posts which were purely speculative regarding their involvement, as that would now seem not to be the case.

 

[jumble]

As I've said in the other related thread, although Blackpool Transport made a small profit this year last year it lost £1.6m. Those losses have to be paid for by someone. Local authority budgets are just getting more and more squeezed and I can certainly imagine that the local authorities on the Fylde Coast will be putting pressure on Blackpool Transport to reduce costs. Heritage trams are a non-core function and will always be at risk if budgets need to be culled.

It's the same everywhere. The heritage railway operations on the Isle of Man lose a couple of million a year and, given our income tax has just gone up by 2%, there are plenty here who are asking pointed questions about whether this is a worthwhile use of funds. Our government recently carried out a study into the heritage operation and one of the options being considered was closing the MER north of Laxey.

This is by no means the whole story
They only made a "profit" this year because they had Bus recovery Grants
( I realize that in accounting terms the profit is genuine )
Their losses last year would be 50% higher without the grants
They also appear to have been awarded a Zero emission grant for electric buses of £19.6 million which is huge compared to a turnover of £28 million

 

[Tetchytyke]

The plot thickens - especially in the context of any suspected ORR involvement.

It probably neatly brings us back to the other rumour: that Blackpool Transport won't/can't fund the refurbishment of Rigby Road and won't/can't have the heritage trams at Starr Gate.

 

[jumble]

Except they have: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/fatal-accident-at-norbreck-blackpool

The utter contempt being shown by so many posters who seem to have such little grasp of the regulatory scene and history of Blackpool (before we even consider Sandilands) is astonishing.

Heritage tram operations have also been suspended in other European cities, and have always had to run within certain regulatory frameworks. The heritage fleet had to be fitted with various modifications post-2011 - if the Blackpool Heritage operation is commercially viable, further modifications will happen, I've absolutely no doubt.

I'm very pleased no one here is any position of decision/policy making or holds safety critical licenses on tramways; I'd be calling the ORR myself.

I am genuinely interested in which European cities operations have been suspended on safety grounds
I am 100% convinced that there are regulatory frameworks not least because I would expect the insurance companies to have a firm view on what is acceptable

The only one I know about is Basle used to have some open trailers which are now verboten as their perceived risk of the overheads coming down is too great but they happily let one stand next to the driver in their cab. Just the opposite applies in Blackpool.

There don't seem to be too many concerns in Brussels or Prague or Geneva all both of which fairly regular extensive heritage operations at times
( Brussels seems to love any excuse for big heritage tram celebrations)

 

[Towers]

Indeed. Double manning in itself may introduce other hazards - such as distraction if they start talking about the football or whatever.

A man walking in front with a red flag, etc etc.

Again, things need to be proportionate here. We don’t fence off every single road in the country, despite the ever-present risk of someone walking out in front of a car. A tramway running parralel to one of those roads should not be subject to an unfair and disproportionate degree of safety restrictions simply because it involves rails, particularly given the more professional and attentive nature of those who could reasonably be expected to be driving the vehicles running along it. IMHO, of course!

Anyhow, this is all now something of a moot point given the latest comment from the ORR themselves.

It probably neatly brings us back to the other rumour: that Blackpool Transport won't/can't fund the refurbishment of Rigby Road and won't/can't have the heritage trams at Starr Gate.

Their recent comments included an assurance that Rigby Rd was not affected by these other events, so hopefully that’s just a rumour!

If there is a problem going forwards then, once again, the best policy is honesty, and a concerted effort to undertake some proper, well planned fundraising efforts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It probably neatly brings us back to the other rumour: that Blackpool Transport won't/can't fund the refurbishment of Rigby Road and won't/can't have the heritage trams at Starr Gate.

If Blackpool had higher land values, my suspicion would be that they want to sell it off for housing development or similar. However it doesn't, the place is full of bits of random wasteland and "temporary" car parking and is one of the cheapest places to live in the country.

 

[Towers]

If Blackpool had higher land values, my suspicion would be that they want to sell it off for housing development or similar. However it doesn't, the place is full of bits of random wasteland and "temporary" car parking and is one of the cheapest places to live in the country.

There are/were plans to use some or all of the site for bus parking though, I seem to recall?

 

[Harvey B]

It probably neatly brings us back to the other rumour: that Blackpool Transport won't/can't fund the refurbishment of Rigby Road and won't/can't have the heritage trams at Starr Gate.

The biggest issue thats preventing this from happening is the fact that the Heritage Operation hasn't got Charity Status, therefore it's harder to get grants from the likes of the Lottery Heritage Fund (and other similar organisations)

The main issue that's preventing Heritage from getting Charity Status is because Heritage operates as a department of Blackpool Transport, and isn't it's own seperate organisation.

The priority for Blackpool Council should be to seperate Heritage from Blackpool Transport (at least, on paper) so that it's easier for Heritage to be granted Charity Status.

In summary: No Seperation? No Charity Status. No Charity Status? No funding to fix up Rigby Road

 

[Blackpool boy]

Well marketed and volunteer staffed, it really should be possible to make money from a heritage operation. It's not well marketed at present, certainly.

It probably does make money but just not enough to cover the costs of the remedials to the depot. Thats the problem