"All Creatures Great and Small" series 5

[Peasmould]

Hi everyone!
Please, did any of you see episode 2 of series 5?
Siegfried meets Tristan at a railway station in the Yorkshire Dales. As far as I can tell from online postings, the actual station used was Finghall, between Bedale and Leyburn. The outside of the station has an information board which is headed "LMS". The storyline is couple of years into the second World War, after Britain's railways were concentrated into four regional companies and before full nationalisation. I was startled to see "LMS" at the top of the board. The story is set in fictional Darrowby. The practice was actually in Thirsk. Surely any station in the Dales area would have been part of the north eastern "LNER" grouping, rather than London-Midland-Scottish??

 

[Andy873]

Please, did any of you see episode 2 of series 5?

Are these the remake series or the original 1970-80's one?

I was startled to see "LMS" at the top of the board. The story is set in fictional Darrowby. The practice was actually in Thirsk. Surely any station in the Dales area would have been part of the north eastern "LNER" grouping, rather than London-Midland-Scottish??

Filing locations are quite often different from where they are supposed to be. I remember one scene (different series) where a chemist / pharmacy was supposed to be in the countryside, it was actually in the middle of a town!

 

[simonw]

Hi everyone!
Please, did any of you see episode 2 of series 5?
Siegfried meets Tristan at a railway station in the Yorkshire Dales. As far as I can tell from online postings, the actual station used was Finghall, between Bedale and Leyburn. The outside of the station has an information board which is headed "LMS". The storyline is couple of years into the second World War, after Britain's railways were concentrated into four regional companies and before full nationalisation. I was startled to see "LMS" at the top of the board. The story is set in fictional Darrowby. The practice was actually in Thirsk. Surely any station in the Dales area would have been part of the north eastern "LNER" grouping, rather than London-Midland-Scottish??

If you mean the original then yes it's Finghall. The remake uses the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. Most TV series play fast and loose with historical accuracy. The original ACGAS was slightly more accurate than the remake (being made closer to the time the books are set) than the remake.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In the original version of the programme, if the station was portrayed in the show as "Rainby Halt, Alight here for Darrowby" then it was definitely Finghall, and I believe that the filming for this particular episode of Series 5 took place in March 1988, with the programme first aired later that same year. (Was it definitely Episode 2, by the way, not sure, can anyone confirm?)

Understand that there were no trains available when the filming took place, as it was prior to the Wensleydale Railway re-opening as a heritage line, so if you saw/heard any smoke or steam train sounds on the show, these were special effects specially added.


(Finghall Station or Rainby Halt? (Photo credit: Alan Graham).)

 

[Calthrop]

Adverse criticism of @Peasmould not intended; but in film / television rendering of "period" events / narratives / doings, it's almost impossible for at least small inaccuracies not to occur. The makers simply cannot pay 100% meticulous attention to every detail of every subject, always getting it absolutely right; and there are instances when, many decades after, simulation of "exactly how it was" is outright impossible. Some railway enthusiasts viewing such "offerings" will be more inclined to forgive / overlook incongruities-in-detail, than will others.

There's a thread on "General Discussion" -- Errors you've noticed in films, initial post 3/3/2017 -- which runs, quite entertainingly, to several pages on this general topic.


ETA: And another in the same vein: on "Traction & Rolling Stock" -- Trains in movies, initial post 17/12/2018.

 

[Sun Chariot]

At the other end of the "tweak" scale, I was stood on Oxford's platform 2, watching the TV crew filming John Thaw sat on a platform 1 bench, next to his adversary for Inspector Morse's episode "Day of The Devil". Oxford station was very much in public use.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The makers simply cannot pay 100% meticulous attention to every detail of every subject, always getting it absolutely right; and there are instances when, many decades after, simulation of "exactly how it was" is outright impossible.

Indeed. When the March 1988 filming took place, Finghall station had essentially been closed for well over three decades, and so it would have had to have been specially dressed up with various reproduction signage and posters. Think by the Fifth Series, the programme was by now set in the late 1940s/early 1950s.

 

[yorksrob]

At the other end of the "tweak" scale, I was stood on Oxford's platform 2, watching the TV crew filming John Thaw sat on a platform 1 bench, next to his adversary for Inspector Morse's episode "Day of The Devil". Oxford station was very much in public use.

Yes, Morse filmed at Oxford station (both pre and post NSE rebuild) on several occasions.

There's one where they end up filming at Dover Western Docks.

 

[tbwbear]

If the OP is mentioning that the story is a few years into the war - that must be Series 5 in the "2020 series".

Series 5 of the "1978 Series" is already late 1940s - as has already been pointed out.

 

[Peasmould]

Are these the remake series or the original 1970-80's one?


Filing locations are quite often different from where they are supposed to be. I remember one scene (different series) where a chemist / pharmacy was supposed to be in the countryside, it was actually in the middle of a town!

Thanks Andy. I was referring to the remake series. My apologies for not making this clear. It was actually episode 3 of series 5 titled: "Homecoming"

If the OP is mentioning that the story is a few years into the war - that must be Series 5 in the "2020 series".

Series 5 of the "1978 Series" is already late 1940s - as has already been pointed out.

Yes, that's right. Thanks tbwbear. It was actually episode 3 of series 5, first aired in September 2024 in the UK, I believe, and January 2025 in the US. Here are some shots of the station/train scenes. Looking again, I see the station name showing on the platform bench is "Brawton". I don't even know where that is.

Adverse criticism of @Peasmould not intended; but in film / television rendering of "period" events / narratives / doings, it's almost impossible for at least small inaccuracies not to occur. The makers simply cannot pay 100% meticulous attention to every detail of every subject, always getting it absolutely right; and there are instances when, many decades after, simulation of "exactly how it was" is outright impossible. Some railway enthusiasts viewing such "offerings" will be more inclined to forgive / overlook incongruities-in-detail, than will others.

There's a thread on "General Discussion" -- Errors you've noticed in films, initial post 3/3/2017 -- which runs, quite entertainingly, to several pages on this general topic.


ETA: And another in the same vein: on "Traction & Rolling Stock" -- Trains in movies, initial post 17/12/2018.

Thank you Calthrop. I appreciate all you say. I wasn't grumbling about the overall quality of the production. I love the programme and think the series has done a wonderful and convincing job of recreating life in the Yorkshire Dales in the appropriate "James Herriot"/Alf Wight time period. They try hard and do well.

In that context, seeing "LMS" boards featuring quite prominently in the background in a number of the shots just felt like a curious geographical dislocation, when everything else felt "right" for the Dales. That simply raised the historical question for me which I was hoping someone could answer here. As the real story takes place in and around Thirsk (ie North Yorkshire), wouldn't that in fact have been "LNER" territory at the time of World War II?

 

[Gloster]

In that context, seeing "LMS" boards featuring quite prominently in the background in a number of the shots just felt like a curious geographical dislocation, when everything else felt "right" for the Dales. That simply raised the historical question for me which I was hoping someone could answer here. As the real story takes place in and around Thirsk (ie North Yorkshire), wouldn't that in fact have been "LNER" territory at the time of World War II?

I presume that the K&WVR normally has LMS boards fitted to their stations, or at least available for nostalgia days, so these are all within the agreed price. If they wanted LNER ones, they would have to be specially made and add to the budget. And most viewers wouldn’t notice or know the difference.

 

[tbwbear]

That simply raised the historical question for me which I was hoping someone could answer here. As the real story takes place in and around Thirsk (ie North Yorkshire), wouldn't that in fact have been "LNER" territory at the time of World War II?

Yes - correct, it would have been Thirsk and that was certainly LNER.

The timeline for ACGAS is interesting in itself. Alf Wight only moved to Thirsk after the start of the Second World War. When he wrote the James Herriot books in the 1970s he set the first ones in the late 1930s, I think using some of the real stories of the characters (i.e. the customers) from much later. When the BBC came to make the 1978 series they rejected Thirsk as it was a bit too large / modern. They used Askrigg for the fictional Darrowby, the 2020 series uses Grassington.

I can't recall if there are even any mentions of railway stations in the books - it is a long time since I read them. Did Darrowby have a station ? If it was supposed to be Thirsk in the late 1930s, then scenes of A4s passing through with the express trains would have been more appopriate

 

[Peasmould]

In the original version of the programme, if the station was portrayed in the show as "Rainby Halt, Alight here for Darrowby" then it was definitely Finghall, and I believe that the filming for this particular episode of Series 5 took place in March 1988, with the programme first aired later that same year. (Was it definitely Episode 2, by the way, not sure, can anyone confirm?)

Understand that there were no trains available when the filming took place, as it was prior to the Wensleydale Railway re-opening as a heritage line, so if you saw/heard any smoke or steam train sounds on the show, these were special effects specially added.

View attachment 173514
(Finghall Station or Rainby Halt? (Photo credit: Alan Graham).)

Many thanks, mcr Warrior,
This is very interesting - thank you for posting.
Sorry I didn't make clear it was the most recent series, first airing in the UK in 2024. As I've just posted (with screenshots), they don't show any large station signs, but a platform bench shows "Brawton". I have no idea where that is! Any idea? Presumably in the old London Midland Scottish region!
My original question was just to confirm whether, in reality, stations in and around Thirsk would have all been in the "LNER" rather then the "LMS" region.

 

[simonw]

Thanks Andy. I was referring to the remake series. My apologies for not making this clear. It was actually episode 3 of series 5 titled: "Homecoming"

Yes, that's right. Thanks tbwbear. It was actually episode 3 of series 5, first aired in September 2024 in the UK, I believe, and January 2025 in the US. Here are some shots of the station/train scenes. Looking again, I see the station name showing on the platform bench is "Brawton". I don't even know where that is.

Thank you Calthrop. I appreciate all you say. I wasn't grumbling about the overall quality of the production. I love the programme and think the series has done a wonderful and convincing job of recreating life in the Yorkshire Dales in the appropriate "James Herriot"/Alf Wight time period. They try hard and do well.

In that context, seeing "LMS" boards featuring quite prominently in the background in a number of the shots just felt like a curious geographical dislocation, when everything else felt "right" for the Dales. That simply raised the historical question for me which I was hoping someone could answer here. As the real story takes place in and around Thirsk (ie North Yorkshire), wouldn't that in fact have been "LNER" territory at the time of World War II?

Brawton is a,made up name, the station is Oakworth station on the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway which is in lms livery. As I said above the series plays fast and loose with history. There is no way people in the UK were that well dressed in ww2 or everything so clean and well painted, or so well fed, Let alone the scenes in the pubs

https://kwvr.co.uk/visiting-the-kwvr/stations/oakworth-station

 

[Gloster]

The timeline for ACGAS is interesting in itself. Alf Wight only moved to Thirsk after the start of the Second World War. When he wrote the James Herriot books in the 1970s he set the first ones in the late 1930s, I think using some of the real stories of the characters (i.e. the customers) from much later. When the BBC came to make the 1978 series they rejected Thirsk as it was a bit too large / modern. They used Askrigg for the fictional Darrowby, the 2020 series uses Grassington.

I can't recall if there are even any mentions of railway stations in the books - it is a long time since I read them.

I suspect that the books started as a reasonably accurate recollection of actual incidents, but as the bandwagon rolled on the relationship to the truth became less and less. As the great Spike Milligan said of his wartime memoirs, “I’ve just jazzed mine up a bit.’

From 1923 to 1948 it was the London, Midland & Scottish Railway and the London & North-Eastern Railway (and two others). The creation of British Railways and its division into six Regions did not happen until 1948.

 

[Sun Chariot]

There is no way people in the UK were that well dressed in ww2 or everything so clean and well painted, or so well fed

Maybe the TV researchers assumed it was just like at a heritage railway "wartime" event....

 

[tbwbear]

I suspect that the books started as a reasonably accurate recollection of actual incidents, but as the bandwagon rolled on the relationship to the truth became less and less. As the great Spike Milligan said of his wartime memoirs, “I’ve just jazzed mine up a bit.’

From 1923 to 1948 it was the London, Midland & Scottish Railway and the London & North-Eastern Railway (and two others). The creation of British Railways and its division into six Regions did not happen until 1948.

Correct.

Towards the end of the BBC series, they ran out of stories from the books and Alf Wight (and now his family) gave permission for new stories to be created. Call the Midwife followed a similar pattern, starting off being based on memoirs and then total fiction.

 

[SteveM70]

Adverse criticism of @Peasmould not intended; but in film / television rendering of "period" events / narratives / doings, it's almost impossible for at least small inaccuracies not to occur. The makers simply cannot pay 100% meticulous attention to every detail of every subject, always getting it absolutely right; and there are instances when, many decades after, simulation of "exactly how it was" is outright impossible. Some railway enthusiasts viewing such "offerings" will be more inclined to forgive / overlook incongruities-in-detail, than will others.

Indeed. And of course how much historical drama do we see on TV and accept as accurate because we happen not to be experts on cattle markets in the 1920s / Edwardian doctors' surgeries / breweries in the North Riding at the time of the Crimean War etc etc

At the other end of the "tweak" scale, I was stood on Oxford's platform 2, watching the TV crew filming John Thaw sat on a platform 1 bench, next to his adversary for Inspector Morse's episode "Day of The Devil". Oxford station was very much in public use.

Ha. My best mate from college was doing the announcements that day

 

[Gloster]

Indeed. And of course how much historical drama do we see on TV and accept as accurate because we happen not to be experts on cattle markets in the 1920s / Edwardian doctors' surgeries / breweries in the North Riding at the time of the Crimean War etc etc

Indeed. There will no doubt be experts on whisky bottles/old motorbikes or light fittings going berserk because that label style/that silencer/that type of switch wasn’t introduced until 1951/1954/1953. One has to accept that it is entertainment, not a documentary. Unfortunately, one does occasionally encounter people who take what they see in a TV drama as absolutely accurate and will stoutly maintain that.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Still struggling to definitively confirm which real life station stood in for "Brawton" in the new re-imagining of the series.

Can anyone assist?


(Brawton station. Or is it?)

 

[John Webb]

Still struggling to definitively confirm which real life station stood in for "Brawton" in the new re-imagining of the series.

Can anyone assist?

View attachment 173552
(Brawton station. Or is it?)

Clearly Oakworth on the K&WVR - instantly recognized from numerous visits to it and from the 1970s version of 'The Railway Children'!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Looking at a railway map, the nearest the LMS came to the Thirsk was either Grassington, or Bolton Abbey on the Ilkley-Skipton route. Other than those, there was nothing LMS north and east of the Leeds - Settle - Carlisle route, except the Hawes branch. All ex Midland Railway. With the exception of Hawes, which was jointly owned with the Midland (alter later the LMS), every station in the North Riding was North Eastern Railway, and later LNER

 

[30907]

Still struggling to definitively confirm which real life station stood in for "Brawton" in the new re-imagining of the series.

Can anyone assist?

View attachment 173552
(Brawton station. Or is it?)

A short way up the line, in the very first episode of the remake, a 4F is seen at "Glasgow" making a dramatic arrival under Keighley Station overbridge. Keighley also featured with USA 5820 in a later episode - ironically, both locos are out of ticket now, hence TVR 85 in the screenshot upthread.

 

[Gloster]

Looking at a railway map, the nearest the LMS came to the Thirsk was either Grassington, or Bolton Abbey on the Ilkley-Skipton route. Other than those, there was nothing LMS north and east of the Leeds - Settle - Carlisle route, except the Hawes branch. All ex Midland Railway. With the exception of Hawes, which was jointly owned with the Midland (alter later the LMS), every station in the North Riding was North Eastern Railway, and later LNER

A bit of rough work on a map suggests that Ben Rhydding was marginally the nearest, but bear in mind that Otley was a joint LMS and LNER station. Not that it would be of the slightest interest to the TV people: just be thankful it wasn’t malachite Green with GWR noticeboards.

 

[tbwbear]

Looking at a railway map, the nearest the LMS came to the Thirsk was either Grassington, or Bolton Abbey on the Ilkley-Skipton route. Other than those, there was nothing LMS north and east of the Leeds - Settle - Carlisle route, except the Hawes branch. All ex Midland Railway. With the exception of Hawes, which was jointly owned with the Midland (alter later the LMS), every station in the North Riding was North Eastern Railway, and later LNER

Grassington is interesting. As mentioned above, that is where the "2020" series of All Creatures is actually being filmed. In that sense it is spot on.

 

[Cowley]

Alright. I’ve held off with this personal little family connection until now but I really can’t see any future opportunity to crowbar this one into the forum, so here it is:

My Auntie Eileen played Tristan’s girlfriend a couple of times in the original series. Unfortunately she passed away in the 1980s when I was about 11 years old, extremely prematurely in her 30’s (and is still missed), having never got the chance to further her career and have a blue reference on Wikipedia…

However, in amongst the listings in the wider cast is her name thankfully…


I remember seeing those clips of Brenda and she certainly could put them away. My gran wasn’t very pleased with the character though unfortunately and used to ask Eileen why she had to always play “A drunk person..?”

 

[Springs Branch]

As well as the railway scenes, I've wondered how accurate or inaccurate are the classic buses which appear in ACGAS?

Both the 1970/80s and the 2020s series have a number of episodes where characters are arriving and leaving Darrowby by a vintage single-deck bus. Obviously, it's someone's preserved bus hired in for the production. I suspect the earlier series always used the same vehicle, while the more recent programmes use another, different bus.

Presumably the vehicles are more or less representative of the late 1930 - 40 - 50s era on country routes - it's not an area where I have any knowledge.

I'm always amazed (old and new series) by the immaculate, highly polished appearance of these buses on all occasions. Especially during WW2 and its aftermath, when Britain's buses became increasingly shabby and poorly maintained.

Obviously the owners of these preserved vehicles keep them in tip-top condition for the next bus rally, but maybe the filmmakers could have added a bit of temporary 'weathering' in the name of authenticity (Tongue-in-cheek, of course, they're not going to do that - a clean, shiny bus adds to the "good old days" ambience).

And, as with @Gloster's sentiment about the trains "just be thankful it wasn’t malachite Green with GWR noticeboards" - at least we didn't see a London Transport RT trundling through the Yorkshire Dales.

Oh, and another oddity - a couple of times, the Darrowby-bound passenger and his suitcase has been deposited at some remote, moorland crossroads and faced with a long, lonely walk from there to his destination. If Darrowby really was a decent-sized market town, as it is portrayed, surely any country bus would actually go there! All part of telling a good tale, I suppose.

 

[SteveM70]

Oh, and another oddity - a couple of times, the Darrowby-bound passenger and his suitcase has been deposited at some remote, moorland crossroads and faced with a long, lonely walk from there to his destination. If Darrowby really was a decent-sized market town, as it is portrayed, surely any country bus would actually go there! All part of telling a good tale, I suppose.

And the suitcase is always empty!

 

[Falcon1200]

Still struggling to definitively confirm which real life station stood in for "Brawton" in the new re-imagining of the series.

Can anyone assist?

View attachment 173552
(Brawton station. Or is it?)

Surely time for a crossover series: 'The Railway Children return All Great and Small'.

Regarding historical accuracy in TV programmes, perfectly valid points made above, however it is rather irritating when the blurb for a new series says something like 'the producers consulted military experts to get the WW2 uniforms exactly right' but when a train appears it is hauled by a BR Standard!

 

[Sun Chariot]

..it is rather irritating when the blurb for a new series says something like 'the producers consulted military experts to get the WW2 uniforms exactly right' but when a train appears it is hauled by a BR Standard!

I have a similar "cringe" moment when I see some heritage lines advertising their "faithful recreation" for Revival events of 1943-45: of immaculately dressed troops, an impeccably attired Churchill (he must have visited so many small railway stations!)
...and all topped off with BR Mk1s - hauled by anything from Big4 to BR Standards...