First ETCS train operates on the East Coast Mainline

[Bald Rick]

Aside from the test train fleet, what was the last movement through the core that wasn't a Thameslink train (ECS or in Service)

I posted in the last year or teo ago that Mrs BR had seen a ‘Northern’ train going through the core. I assumed it was a 319, turned out she missed the word ‘Great’, and it was a 387 en route to Selhurst.

 

[D365]

As a strategic link, the Thameslink core can occasionally host other classes of non-ETCS trains for special moves. The partial failure of ETCS scenario for the regular stock is only of limited function as AWS/TPWS is emulated in the onboard ETCS computer and cab screens. If everything onboard was working but there was a radio comms failure preventing movement authority messages, drivers could switch to the legacy mode and continue service, albeit at reduced capacity with the longer blocks. I assume engineers are now confident GSM-R will prove sufficiently reliable for this to become unnecessary on the Moorgate line, a necessary step to rolling out further areas without signals on the ECML. Even after ECML becomes no signals, the legacy systems in the TL core will likely remain for access to the non-ETCS MML.

It's a good job then that the GBRf Class 73s are being fitted with ETCS... eventually.

 

[absolutelymilk]

All City of London route trains are now digitally signalled



Looks like all trains into Moorgate are now signalled using ECTS. Quicker than I thought given the first one only ran a year ago!

Anyone know if performance has improved since the switch to ECTS?

 

[MarkyT]

Anyone know if performance has improved since the switch to ECTS?

I don't know but the full switch on is a hopeful signal (sorry!) that the new equipment, likely having run for an extended period in shadow soak test mode during the day and able to be live tested with trains at night, has reached its desired and specified level of reliability. This style of introduction is designed to shake out any configuration errors and rogue components before failures are experienced by the public. It effectively shields the operation from the initially high failure rate typical of complex systems, before they settle down to a steady state until decay and obsolescence take hold and the rate starts to rise again. This is often known as the 'bathtub curve'.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anyone know if performance has improved since the switch to ECTS?

Presume you mean on the Moorgate branch.

Too soon to say - it’s been peak autumn, peak traincrew issues, and some bad weather. However, anecdotally, I’ll say it hasn‘t got noticeably worse.

 

[Fincra5]

Anyone know if performance has improved since the switch to ECTS?

Given the ETCS Marker Boards are in the same place as the current Signals, I doubt you'd see much improvement tbh... 30mph Railway etc...

There are some changes, especially around degraded workings when its "Signal Away".

I've noticed its quicker coming back!

 

[Edvid]

GTR’s 717 passes ETCS software upgrade test with flying colours

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), with Siemens Mobility, has successfully upgraded one of its Class 717 Great Northern trains to the latest specification of the in-cab digital signalling, European Train Control System (ETCS).

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

On Monday 3 February, unit 717020 ran for the first time on the Northern City Line between Moorgate and Finsbury Park using ETCS Baseline 3, Release 2. There were no issues in this empty coaching stock trial.

It is anticipated the entire 717 fleet of 25 trains will be upgraded within the next few months. GTR is already operating all its services on the Northern City Line in ETCS, and it is planned that the signals will be physically removed in May.

Engineering works: KGX / PBO | National Rail

No trains to / from London Kings Cross / Moorgate on Saturday 17 and Sunday 18 May. See details of routes affected by planned engineering works, including when they take effect, alternative timetables, advice for alternative travel, including info about engineering work and why it is necessary.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Engineering work is taking place between London Kings Cross and Peterborough, closing all lines.

No trains will run between London Kings Cross and Peterborough all weekend.

My interpretation of the above is that legacy signalling on the NCL will be switched off & removed on 17/18 May. No trains to/from Moorgate (per RTT) that weekend either.

 

[800Travel]

GTR’s 717 passes ETCS software upgrade test with flying colours

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), with Siemens Mobility, has successfully upgraded one of its Class 717 Great Northern trains to the latest specification of the in-cab digital signalling, European Train Control System (ETCS).

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Engineering works: KGX / PBO | National Rail

No trains to / from London Kings Cross / Moorgate on Saturday 17 and Sunday 18 May. See details of routes affected by planned engineering works, including when they take effect, alternative timetables, advice for alternative travel, including info about engineering work and why it is necessary.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

My interpretation of the above is that legacy signalling on the NCL will be switched off & removed on 17/18 May. No trains to/from Moorgate (per RTT) that weekend either.

I don't see the point of removing the legacy stuff. Would've thought it's worth keeping in place, even if turned off, as a back up?

 

[plugwash]

If you are going to keep a safety system around, even "as a backup", you are going to have to maintain it, train people to operate it and so-on.

 

[zwk500]

I don't see the point of removing the legacy stuff. Would've thought it's worth keeping in place,

It's a lot easier to maintain a reflectorised board than a signal head.

even if turned off, as a back up?

To keep the signalling available as a backup, you would need to be confident it will work when required, which basically means you'd need it running underneath all the time anyway.

 

[D365]

I don't see the point of removing the legacy stuff. Would've thought it's worth keeping in place, even if turned off, as a back up?

It's a lot easier to maintain a reflectorised board than a signal head.

To keep the signalling available as a backup, you would need to be confident it will work when required, which basically means you'd need it running underneath all the time anyway.

The significant reduction in lineside maintenance is, after all, touted as a secondary benefit of ETCS.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't see the point of removing the legacy stuff. Would've thought it's worth keeping in place, even if turned off, as a back up?

It’s 50 years old, knackered and unreliable.

 

[Tim M]

I don't see the point of removing the legacy stuff. Would've thought it's worth keeping in place, even if turned off, as a back up?

ETCS is just another Automatic Train Protection (ATP) system. The first ATP system in the U.K. was commissioned on the Victoria Line nearly 60 years ago. The Victoria Line has never had a back up system of lights on sticks. OK that was a brand new line, but the same principle applies to the Central Line where ATP was installed in the early 1990’s, there was never any intention to retain back up signals and train stops.

 

[Belperpete]

I thought that the Victoria line did originally have light signals as a backup? Okay, not on sticks, but I seem to recall red/white signals on the tunnel headwalls at the end of the platforms?

 

[zwk500]

ETCS is just another Automatic Train Protection (ATP) system.

Level 1 is just an ATP system on fixed signals but I thought Level 2 is slightly more than that.

 

[TurboMan]

Level 1 is just an ATP system on fixed signals but I thought Level 2 is slightly more than that.

They're largely the same, the difference being that trackside-to-train data transmission is via (switchable) balises in Level 1, whereas in Level 2 it's via the GSM-R datalink, with the balises largely being passive for things like position data. So in Level 2 the EoA can extend pretty much as soon as the section ahead is clear, whereas in Level 1 the train has to pass over the next balise group, much like BR-ATP.

The clue's in the icons: for Level 1 it's a number 1 with a dotted line to indicate intermittent data transmission, while for Level 2 it's a number 2 with a solid line for constant data transmission.

 

[zwk500]

They're largely the same, the difference being that trackside-to-train data transmission is via (switchable) balises in Level 1, whereas in Level 2 it's via the GSM-R datalink, with the balises largely being passive for things like position data. So in Level 2 the EoA can extend pretty much as soon as the section ahead is clear, whereas in Level 1 the train has to pass over the next balise group, much like BR-ATP.

There's also differences in how the block sections in level 2 can be set up, with unmarked EoAs and so on that make it quite distinct from 'just' an ATP system.

 

[Tim M]

I thought that the Victoria line did originally have light signals as a backup? Okay, not on sticks, but I seem to recall red/white signals on the tunnel headwalls at the end of the platforms?

Agreed, however these would probably be more to tell the driver to proceed linked to the timetable/headway rather than a block marker, although I don’t know if the Victoria Line control system could do that. Other mass transit railways have similar indicators either as a pseudo signal or a count down timer at the station head wall or in cab.

 

[vuzzeho]

Great news! So, what does that mean for Welwyn to Hitchin? How's that coming along?

 

[sharpener]

Great news! So, what does that mean for Welwyn to Hitchin? How's that coming along?

Some potential for improvement, see this thread.

 

[Bald Rick]

I should post that here really, a much more appropriate place!

The in cab signalling is already there and in service. It’s just that not all of the cabs are fitted, and few of the non- GTR drivers are trained. But, you can see the (positive) impact it will have already. If you look at the map for Welwyn viaduct on Open Train Times (see below), you can see extra ‘berths’ without signals - these are additional short sections for ETCS.

In the example you can see below, train 2C63 is on approach to 2152 signal. With conventional sigalling, any following train must be held at one of 2182 / 2180 signals in rear until 2C63 has cleared the overlap of 2152.

With ETCS, a following train being held at 2180 or 2182 would get a movement authority to proceed as soon as 2C63 has passed the overlap of the next section, which in both signals’ cases is actually still on the 4 track section, albeit the overlap will almost certainly be just on the two track. This means the second train can start moving well before the first train has entered Welwyn North tunnel, saving around 25 seconds if the first train is through at speed, more if the firsttrain is also startign from restricted aspects. And, also, rather than the second train starting off against a single yellow, and then proceeding round the corner slowly, expecting a red, the driver will receive progressively more movement authorities as the first train speeds through the section; he/she will therefore be able to accelerate to speed earlier, and clear the section more quickly for following trains.

This is going to be a significant help during any out of course running. It may even help squeeze an extra path out, if that can be used elsewhere.


View attachment 175448

 

[takno]

I should post that here really, a much more appropriate place!

25 seconds seems a bit too optimistic for this. The signals are placed around 30 seconds apart, and with the smaller berths in an ETCS setup they will spend most of their time straggling two berths, so 15 seconds seems more likely. It's a useful win either way.

The variable speed movement authority probably gives the bigger benefit - you can regularly see across this section that trains end up separated by 8 or 9 signals rather than the necessary 4, so there should be huge potential for improved recovery from disruption, and as you say quite possibly another path

 

[Failed Unit]

Will Drayton Park be able to go back to standard operation (Rather then SDO) - I always thought the issue was signal sighting which forced SDO as the train couldn’t stop as far up the platform.

 

[Bald Rick]

25 seconds seems a bit too optimistic for this.

Well that’s what the stopwatch says!

 

[St. Paddy]

I should post that here really, a much more appropriate place!

Not in service yet, still in the testing phase and turned off between tests

 

[Bald Rick]

Not in service yet, still in the testing phase and turned off between tests

Sorry, yes, ”in service” was a a bit strong. Commissioned would have been a better word!

 

[Meerkat]

Sorry, yes, ”in service” was a a bit strong. Commissioned would have been a better word!

Presumably this only works once the signals are taken away?

 

[HSTEd]

Presumably this only works once the signals are taken away?

ETCS with conventional signal overlays is capable of subdividing lights-on-sticks signal blocks into shorter logical ones.
Thanks to software driven interlocking, it is practical to provide the complex logic necessary.

 

[zwk500]

Presumably this only works once the signals are taken away?

Trains fitted with ETCS can use the virtual blocks while the signals remain for trains not fitted with ETCS. Hence it's 'Level 2 Overlay' rather than Level 1 (which does require fixed signals). The capacity gains are obviously restricted if a mix of trains is operating.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably this only works once the signals are taken away?

No, it works now. Every service on the Moorgate branch is signalled under ETCS, but the signals are still there and working (until May 17th anyway).