Stagecoach Cashless Trial - Illegal?

[Bletchleyite]

Even so, I would assume the amount of children travelling solo must be very low. You can open a bank account and get a debit card at about 12-13 these days.

Anyone younger than that will likely have a prepaid school bus ticket, or be travelling with a parent/guardian who will pay with his/her contactless card.

Replied on the other thread as it's more generic than the legalities of Stagecoach's scheme.

 

[Discuss223]

say why she needed to use cash on Stagecoach's Kent buses? I can't see what she posted onto Facebook.

No, however it shouldn't be about need.

The customer should have the choice to pay with our national tender, should they so wish.

The Keep Cash UK group and Don't Kill Cash demonstrate that many people wish to keep using cash.

I sense that Facebook poster Tuula Pile has normal cognitive ability, from her wording. I am still unclear how, based on her Facebook post, Stagecoach's Kent bus Adult Single cashless trial is - in your own words - "abhorrent" and "a disgrace"?

Just because someone can produce a message doesn't mean they don't have a disability.

It is indeed abhorrent and a disgrace.

 

[yorksrob]

I disagree with all these here today, gone tomorrow outfits suddenly deciding that they can't be bothered handling coin of the realm.

 

[Discuss223]

Since London buses have been cashless for years methinks not.

London buses have arrangements with shops and have their own TFL ticket office that can sell tickets with payment of cash prior to boarding.

 

[Haywain]

Can any of you see Tuula Pile's post - quoted by the OP - on Facebook;

No, it's in a private group and I am not joining it just to read what may prove to be complete nonsense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree with all these here today, gone tomorrow outfits suddenly deciding that they can't be bothered handling coin of the realm.

You think Transport for London is a "here today, gone tomorrow outfit"? Crikey.

 

[peterblue]

No, however it shouldn't be about need.

The customer should have the choice to pay with our national tender, should they so wish.

The Keep Cash UK group and Don't Kill Cash demonstrate that many people wish to keep using cash.


Just because someone can produce a message doesn't mean they don't have a disability.

It is indeed abhorrent and a disgrace.

The groups you refer to are a vocal minority.

If someone does indeed have a disability, then he/she may be eligible for a disabled bus pass entitling the user to free bus travel at most times and on most routes.

There's no requirement to accept cash at any business, and a private business may make its own decisions. Likewise, consumers can also make their own decisions, and to vote with their feet. No one is being forced to use Stagecoach, much like no one is forced to go to Tesco should they decide to charge £10 for a loaf of bread. There are alternatives with potential other operators, and other transport options. One of the advantages of a partially deregulated market is that competitors can decide to launch a competing service should it be decided there is a failure in the product or demand.

If it were such a big issue, we would soon see a new 'cash bus' registration, operating in Kent for the thousands of people who want to pay by cash. I suspect that won't happen, though.

There will always be winners and losers in life, you can't please everyone unfortunately.

 

[CBlue]

OP, have you perhaps thought about contacting Stagecoach and making your opinion known? This facebook post (which I'm also unable to read) seems to have wound you up a bit.

If you do I'd advise against hyperbolic language like "abhorrent" and "a disgrace" which just devalues any sort of argument you may be trying to make.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Just because someone can produce a message doesn't mean they don't have a disability.

I wonder what compels Tuula Pile to "...have no choice but to use taxis". It reads as if her travel need is regular.
Her phrasing suggests a cognitive ability and I wonder if her impairment is physical. I do wonder how easily she will find "turn up and pay cash" taxis that meet her mobility need; all the accessibility taxis in our area, need a pre-paid advance booking, not cash paid to driver.
I wonder whether her bus travel need would also be met via Stagecoach's other ticket types (those still payable in cash, on services she needs).
Or, whether she can purchase her Adult Single tickets via an authorised outlet, in advance, enabling her to use them as & when required; on assumption she can get to such an outlet.

We probably will never know. Off topic, I do appreciate, but I wonder if she uses any online shopping / catering services. Cashless payment?

Regardless - Stagecoach's trial will, I hope, give them a clear balanced appraisal of pros and cons with a cashless model.

 

[Discuss223]

OP, have you perhaps thought about contacting Stagecoach and making your opinion known?

I have already contacted them as soon as I saw the post and I made my opinion very well known.

 

[scosutsut]

The groups you refer to are a vocal minority.

This I think is an often overlooked fact of social media and groups like this, it creates an echo chamber of never challenged views that give the impression to members that they have a universally accepted view and that tends to let themselves whip each other into the frenzy as being demonstrated here.

As has been pointed out by numerous other posts, it's not discrimination, there is no legal requirement being breached here, there are multiple non cash solutions that are all being rejected for reasons that do a great job of appearing like a smokescreen at best.

 

[skyhigh]

The customer should have the choice to pay with our national tender, should they so wish.

Are you muddling up the concepts of national currency and legal tender? Never heard of "national tender" before...?

 

[SLC001]

If you want to understand someone you need to walk in their shoes.
Some people here should consider this. Earlier this year, the Government refused to force shops to accept cash despite concerns that millions of vulnerable people rely on it. Millions apparently.
Disability Rights UK (DRUK) and the Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB) are warning that making card payments the default creates "more barriers" for disabled people.
While handling cash is a burden upon businesses, is it not unreasonable to ask Stagecoach whether they have spoken with RNIB and DRUK to see what can be done to help these people and expect them, Stagecoach, to mitigate the problem?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's nonsensical to suggest that cash is easier than card for blind people or people with coordination issues. How can it possibly be? It was an issue in the days of Chip & PIN or signatures, but when did you last see someone enter their PIN?

However, given the relatively small number of people who do have disabilities that makes understanding card payment difficult, the answer to this is quite obvious - those people should receive free travel, as is the case in London. This is much cheaper than providing an entire cash acceptance mechanism for the tiny number of people involved.

Refuseniks, by contrast, can just walk - this is all about people who CANNOT use card and would not be accompanied by a carer who can do it for them, who are extremely small in number and mostly elderly (and thus in receipt of free travel anyway).

 

[Haywain]

mostly elderly (and thus in receipt of free travel anyway).

And, apparently, very happy to 'pay' for bus travel by card.

 

[renegademaster]

but when did you last see someone enter their PIN?

Every £200 or so of spending my debit card will ask for my PIN, i don't know if blind people can get a special exemption from that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Every £200 or so of spending my debit card will ask for my PIN, i don't know if blind people can get a special exemption from that.

To be fair blind people can enter their PIN. To aid them in doing so the number 5 key has a raised bump on it so you don't need to see the pad to enter it. This is considerably easier than identifying and counting out coinage and even more so notes. All numeric keypads have this feature including my computer keyboard. The only ones that might not are those terminals which use a touchscreen for the PIN, which are a terrible piece of design and probably open to legal challenge on disability discrimination grounds.

These days I see almost everyone paying with their mobile phone, whatever the business.

 

[RT4038]

Every £200 or so of spending my debit card will ask for my PIN, i don't know if blind people can get a special exemption from that.

Contactless on buses it doesn't.

 

[peterblue]

Contactless on buses it doesn't.

Nearly every contactless payment on board buses will succeed, there is a special 'transit mode' in the framework in place for this as PIN entry is impossible. A small deposit is taken initially, of about 10p, then the full amount is taken later. Provided you have sufficient funds, your card isn't reported as stolen and you aren't on a block list, the contactless transaction will go through.

It's nonsensical to suggest that cash is easier than card for blind people or people with coordination issues. How can it possibly be? It was an issue in the days of Chip & PIN or signatures, but when did you last see someone enter their PIN?

However, given the relatively small number of people who do have disabilities that makes understanding card payment difficult, the answer to this is quite obvious - those people should receive free travel, as is the case in London. This is much cheaper than providing an entire cash acceptance mechanism for the tiny number of people involved.

Refuseniks, by contrast, can just walk - this is all about people who CANNOT use card and would not be accompanied by a carer who can do it for them, who are extremely small in number and mostly elderly (and thus in receipt of free travel anyway).

All PIN entry terminals, cash machines, and the banknotes themselves, have a raised bump to make things easier for those with visual difficulties. It's not any more or less difficult for someone with visual impairment to use a bankcard. I would argue it's easier as most of the time you just have to tap it. Those same people who are blind (or have sight impairments) will be used to reading braille and large print which is a much more time consuming and laborious process compared to just tapping a contactless card.

While handling cash is a burden upon businesses, is it not unreasonable to ask Stagecoach whether they have spoken with RNIB and DRUK to see what can be done to help these people and expect them, Stagecoach, to mitigate the problem?

There already is plenty that can be done:
-Pay a friend/guardian/family member cash in exchange for the other person to buy bus tickets via contactless bank card.
-If the person has a bank account but without contactless, pay for a ticket online, or pay for a mobile phone m-ticket
-Go to the nearest depot/bus station and buy a carnet or weekly or longer ticket there
-Travel with another bus operator
-Buy a multi operator ticket from a competitor with cash then use it on stagecoach
-Apply for a free disabled bus pass if eligible
-Alternate transport (e.g. DRT, Taxi, Cycle, Walk)
-Open up a bank account

Realistically how many people of a fare-paying age (i.e adults, not elderly, not disabled) don't have a contactless bank card these days?

 

[Edvid]

Nearly every contactless payment on board buses will succeed, there is a special 'transit mode' in the framework in place for this as PIN entry is impossible.

On another thread it's said that Stagecoach don't use transit mode* - with the implication it was a commercial decision as opposed to a technical limitation of the Vix machines they use - so their passengers' cards may raise PIN flags in that very scenario.

[* Singles I buy on their buses are preauthorised at full value IMX]

 

[peterblue]

On another thread it's said that Stagecoach don't use transit mode - with the implication it was a commercial decision as opposed to a technical limitation of the Vix machines they use - so their passengers' cards may raise PIN flags in that very scenario.

I wasn't aware of that. It makes sense though. I've known operators refuse to sell weekly or longer tickets on the bus, presumably for the same reason.

 

[MCR247]

Who get boatloads of government subsidy, likely making up most of their revenue when you take into account ENCTS

Relevance of this? Like I said before if the government wants to adds strings to this it is able to. So far it hasn’t.
Subsidies or not, buses are operated by private companies under no obligation to look after anyone but themselves.

If it’s that big of deal campaign to MPs, speak to the local press.

 

[renegademaster]

I wasn't aware of that. It makes sense though. I've known operators refuse to sell weekly or longer tickets on the bus, presumably for the same reason.

On the Sheffield tram, you can buy weekly tickets only with cash on board

 

[mattb7tl]

Even in the event of your card being declined companies would not leave a vulnerable person on the side of the road. I see the more extreme side of the death of cash being in a metropolitan county but it is very much approaching the point where the effort that goes into maintaining cash payments is likely not really worth the cost or energy. I can imagine that the only reason it continues to exist is the backlash. I do not really get another common talking point about cashless buses when people infantize old people as they can simply learn to adapt our country as a whole is very much behind with technological literacy we really should have more of a push to embed technology into more parts of our daily life. China has old people paying for everything with QR since cash and even card is barely accepted in most locations.

Can children or vulnerable adults be refused travel on the bus? | Arriva Help Portal | Midlands

Arriva help - frequently asked questions about Arriva.

help.arrivabus.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

On another thread it's said that Stagecoach don't use transit mode* - with the implication it was a commercial decision as opposed to a technical limitation of the Vix machines they use - so their passengers' cards may raise PIN flags in that very scenario.

[* Singles I buy on their buses are preauthorised at full value IMX]

I seem to recall transit mode is only intended to be used with TOTO and not for conventional sales.

 

[Falcon1200]

I have only seen people using cash a handful of times, maybe once.
It's exact fare only so you need to have £2.60 in coins. Who actually has that?

As my Scottish bus pass does not work in England, I have to pay, and I often pay cash for small amounts - as I did this very morning, £2.50 on Stagecoach Oxford.

 

[RT4038]

On another thread it's said that Stagecoach don't use transit mode* - with the implication it was a commercial decision as opposed to a technical limitation of the Vix machines they use - so their passengers' cards may raise PIN flags in that very scenario.

[* Singles I buy on their buses are preauthorised at full value IMX]

I do not think you can get a PIN flag from a Stagecoach ticket machine, so this is a red herring. (There is no means to enter a PIN no. anyway)

 

[GusB]

We're 80-odd posts in and the only source that has been referenced so far is a Facebook post that nobody can access! Is this the cashless trial being referred to?

ServiceUpdatesArticle

www.stagecoachbus.com

From Tuesday 22 April we will be taking part in a UK cashless payment trial for adult single bus fares on routes 12 and 17.


This means all adult single tickets will only be available for purchase by contactless payment on the bus, or on the Stagecoach Bus App. We will be unable to accept cash for adult single tickets on these bus routes during the trial period. The trial is limited to route 12 (Deal, Walmer, Whitfield, Canterbury) and route 17 (Folkestone, Cheriton, Elham Valley, Canterbury).


All other fares will continue to be available with cash payment. The trial will last for four weeks and end on Sunday 18 May.

Let's put things into perspective. The article says that routes 12 and 17 are affected - that's two routes out of how many that the company runs? Secondly, it only seems to affect adult single tickets; anyone who frequently travels by bus will know, or will quite quickly be informed, that there are cheaper tickets available.

How many people is this policy really going to affect? As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, people with disabilities will likely be eligible for free travel anyway.

 

[Russel]

I am unclear how use of a contactless card is discriminatory, or an impediment, versus use of cash?

My 23 year old son has significant learning disabilities and is unable to understand what coins needed for any given value. Furthermore, his dyspraxia gives limited motor coordination of his fingers, creating difficulty in, for example, taking coins from a wallet
However, he has comfortably learned to use his debit card - contactless or PIN entry - in shops and the buses he needs.

Similarly, I would have thought someone with limited physical motor ability would find a contactless card easier to hold and use, than trying to hold and hand over several coins?

What in your view @Discuss223 is "abhorrent" & "a disgrace"?

I'm with you on this, I'm struggling to come up with any way in which paying with coins is easier than using a contactless card.

On that note, to pay with cash, one would need some kind of bank card to withdraw cash?

If I was a bus driver, I'd also be supporting this from a safety point of view.

 

[johncrossley]

In other countries, cashless operation has been achieved in large part because of lobbying from unions after drivers getting robbed, for example in the Netherlands. Boarding times were not such a major factor because nearly all passengers already used smartcards. Stagecoach buses don't use tap in tap out so they suffer from poor boarding times, and this trial won't help much, if at all, as they are simply replacing cash singles with singles bought from the driver using a bank card.