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Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

hacman

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It would appear leaf fall season is in full swing. My last two commutes to work have involved that unmistakable feeling of weightlessness/gliding followed by usage of the magnetic brake on approach to Tyne Dock.

I assume the new stock will also have the magnetic brakes? It could be a struggle in Autumn if not.

The new units are due to feature both magnetic track brakes and sanding equipment, plus some sort of active-WSP.
 
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hexagon789

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It would appear leaf fall season is in full swing. My last two commutes to work have involved that unmistakable feeling of weightlessness/gliding followed by usage of the magnetic brake on approach to Tyne Dock.

I assume the new stock will also have the magnetic brakes? It could be a struggle in Autumn if not.

I suppose it's better than a station overrun, but shouldn't drivers be braking earlier and lighter rather than making use of the emergency track brake in what isn't exactly an "emergency"?
 

hacman

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I suppose it's better than a station overrun, but shouldn't drivers be braking earlier and lighter rather than making use of the emergency track brake in what isn't exactly an "emergency"?

It really doesn't take much for a quite significant slide to occur on the current rolling stock, so the track brake being used is quite common.

Metro suffers quite badly from low rail adhesion due to the stop-start nature of the service, the comparatively light weight of the rolling stock and the fact that vegetation management hasn't been a Nexus strong point for quite some time.
 

hexagon789

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It really doesn't take much for a quite significant slide to occur on the current rolling stock, so the track brake being used is quite common.

Metro suffers quite badly from low rail adhesion due to the stop-start nature of the service, the comparatively light weight of the rolling stock and the fact that vegetation management hasn't been a Nexus strong point for quite some time.

Fair enough, I think I'm more used to heavy rail where use of the emergency brake (obviously without track brake) is more frowned upon.

I assume the current units do have a WSP even if it's a more basic 1970s system?
 

hacman

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Fair enough, I think I'm more used to heavy rail where use of the emergency brake (obviously without track brake) is more frowned upon.

I assume the current units do have a WSP even if it's a more basic 1970s system?

Unless something has changed, the WSP is very basic, where the driver has a button that can be used to briefly cut power to the traction, and it's somewhat indiscriminate. I don't believe there is anything for braking. The units are very much 1960's / early 1970's technology and are very basic - one of their key design considerations was that they were to where possible only use 'proven' technology to keep costs low.
 

hexagon789

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Unless something has changed, the WSP is very basic, where the driver has a button that can be used to briefly cut power to the traction, and it's somewhat indiscriminate. I don't believe there is anything for braking. The units are very much 1960's / early 1970's technology and are very basic - one of their key design considerations was that they were to where possible only use 'proven' technology to keep costs low.

Perhaps a bit like 1973 tube stock? Rheostatic brakes on top of westcode EP air brakes but no WSP.
 

trebor79

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Doesn't the current stock also have a very crude emergency brake in the form of a heavy weight on an arm that applies the brake mechanically if the electromagnet holding the weight up it deenergised? I believe it's also linked to the deadman and is the cause of the small jolt you can sometimes feel during a crew change.
 

ModernRailways

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I suppose it's better than a station overrun, but shouldn't drivers be braking earlier and lighter rather than making use of the emergency track brake in what isn't exactly an "emergency"?

The amount of drivers that are new is part of the issue here. Training for LRA/leaf fall is inadequate so in turn you have a lot of new drivers who have no idea what how to handle the train is such circumstances. This is also why so many trains have square wheels, new drivers can't handle the trains because they have no experience, they come into the platform and it's then a brown pants moment of 'I need to stop this thing'. With a lot of the drivers who are coaching being new themselves (one has only been here just over a year themselves) there's simply no experience. Nexus/Metro and their sheer incompetence don't realise this, it's not just about services not running due to lack of resource it's also the lack of knowledge and skill. People who have spent years learning how to drive in all conditions are gone and in turn that knowledge is also gone.

Nexus/Metro simply look after management they don't care about their staff. In turn you lose swathes of experience. You can see it on the frontline with train crew staff and revenue staff.
 

Scott M

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I suppose it's better than a station overrun, but shouldn't drivers be braking earlier and lighter rather than making use of the emergency track brake in what isn't exactly an "emergency"?
Problem is Metro stops and starts a lot. So whilst taking a cautious, early braking approach to every station would be ideal, it would probably end up in you consistently running late and a resulting angry DM.


The amount of drivers that are new is part of the issue here. Training for LRA/leaf fall is inadequate so in turn you have a lot of new drivers who have no idea what how to handle the train is such circumstances. This is also why so many trains have square wheels, new drivers can't handle the trains because they have no experience, they come into the platform and it's then a brown pants moment of 'I need to stop this thing'. With a lot of the drivers who are coaching being new themselves (one has only been here just over a year themselves) there's simply no experience. Nexus/Metro and their sheer incompetence don't realise this, it's not just about services not running due to lack of resource it's also the lack of knowledge and skill. People who have spent years learning how to drive in all conditions are gone and in turn that knowledge is also gone.

Nexus/Metro simply look after management they don't care about their staff. In turn you lose swathes of experience. You can see it on the frontline with train crew staff and revenue staff.
Just curious, how would they train people to deal with low rail adhesion scenarios? I imagine it is difficult to replicate the scenario. Guessing the big TOCs use simulators but not sure if Metro has one of those.
 
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ModernRailways

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Just curious, how would they train people to deal with low rail adhesion scenarios? I imagine it is difficult to replicate the scenario. Guessing the big TOCs used simulators but not sure if Metro has one of those.

Training should be around taking power slowly, braking slowly and early. Yes, this may mean delays but if Metro actually produced an Autumn timetable it would also help. From speaking to a few new drivers they are terrified of being late because they then have to explain why and if the train prior or the train following doesn't report an issue then it will be deemed driver error. In turn they will be applying trying to rush to make back time and that is where errors occur and drivers have an INDUSI application. Metro doesn't have a simulator, however it could be replicated with a gel. I believe that is how some NR TOCs do it.
Metro has a very poor blame culture from the management side.
 

ainsworth74

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Just curious, how would they train people to deal with low rail adhesion scenarios? I imagine it is difficult to replicate the scenario. Guessing the big TOCs used simulators but not sure if Metro has one of those.

Big TOCs use either a simulator (Scotrail keep tweeting a comparison from a low adhesion stop and a normal adhesion stop from one of theirs) or they take them to a freight only (or other hardly used) branchline, grease up the rails and send a unit down there a few times whilst several different drivers practice. I believe Northern have used this approach at Monk Bretton and GWR on the Okehamton branchlines.
 

Scott M

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Big TOCs use either a simulator (Scotrail keep tweeting a comparison from a low adhesion stop and a normal adhesion stop from one of theirs) or they take them to a freight only (or other hardly used) branchline, grease up the rails and send a unit down there a few times whilst several different drivers practice. I believe Northern have used this approach at Monk Bretton and GWR on the Okehamton branchlines.
The greasing the rails idea is a good one as gives a chance to practice it in real time rather than on a simulator. Not sure if Metro could do this however, perhaps the depot would be a potential location if there is a long enough stretch of track in it.


Training should be around taking power slowly, braking slowly and early. Yes, this may mean delays but if Metro actually produced an Autumn timetable it would also help. From speaking to a few new drivers they are terrified of being late because they then have to explain why and if the train prior or the train following doesn't report an issue then it will be deemed driver error. In turn they will be applying trying to rush to make back time and that is where errors occur and drivers have an INDUSI application. Metro doesn't have a simulator, however it could be replicated with a gel. I believe that is how some NR TOCs do it.
Metro has a very poor blame culture from the management side.
If true, that is a rather shocking and draconian attitude towards their drivers. Applying a speed and efficiency at any cost and blame game culture to a safety critical job is never going to end well. Hopefully it changes soon.
 
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hexagon789

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Problem is Metro stops and starts a lot. So whilst taking a cautious, early braking approach to every station would be ideal, it would probably end up in you consistently running late and a resulting angry DM.

I understand, I think I'm comparing to much to the situation on NR where if you run late due to braking lighter and earlier that's just how it is.
 

DustyBin

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I was at Benton station last week and a ‘not in service’ train (presumably heading to the depot) had to stop as a service had not long departed in the same direction. The driver managed the train equivalent of a burn-out when pulling away, there was actually steam coming off the rails after the train had gone, which I thought was an impressive effort! As has been said, the trains are relatively lightweight and low geared so it’s not unusual to lose adhesion, especially on the leafy sections.

Out of interest, does any other UK stock have a track brake?
 

Bletchleyite

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Out of interest, does any other UK stock have a track brake?

That I know of only trams.

German rolling stock tends to have eddy current brakes (required for over 160km/h if I recall) but these are different and don't actually contact the track, they brake by inducing eddy currents in the track, causing a magnetic field.
 

DustyBin

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That I know of only trams.

German rolling stock tends to have eddy current brakes (required for over 160km/h if I recall) but these are different and don't actually contact the track, they brake by inducing eddy currents in the track, causing a magnetic field.

Ok thanks. As the T&W metro fleet is based on German trams that explains it!
 

trebor79

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I thought the track brake on the Metrocars was an electromagnet to pull the wheelsets down onto the track, effectively increasing the weight of the unit. I never realised it actually made contact with the rails, you learn something new everyday!
 

Scott M

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I thought the track brake on the Metrocars was an electromagnet to pull the wheelsets down onto the track, effectively increasing the weight of the unit. I never realised it actually made contact with the rails, you learn something new everyday!
I think it actually contacts the rails. Think them dropping to the rails is the sound you hear when the driver first puts his key in.

Out of interest, does any other UK stock have a track brake?
I asked this question a while back and was given the answer that heavy rail don’t use magnetic emergency brakes because the trains are so heavy, that if they did they would pull the track up behind them when the magnetic brakes are operated.
 
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hacman

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I asked this question a while back and was given the answer that heavy rail don’t use magnetic emergency brakes because the trains are so heavy, that if they did they would pull the track up behind them when the magnetic brakes are operated.

I'm not sure they'd pull the track up - as the magnetic effect of the track brake is limited to ensuring the brake shoe has good contact with the railhead. Beyond that, they're just a standard friction based braking device.

The idea behind them is they allow very sharp stops on units that are otherwise quite light weight. Having units that can stop on a dime allows signaling protection to be greatly simplified (think provision of overlaps and such), and there were originally even plans that Metro would operate purely on a "line-of-sight" basis outside the tunnels, with the exception of major junctions.

Whilst magnetic track brakes are helpful on trams and urban railways, they're simply not needed for heavy rail applications.
 

jkkne

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With current ridership at about 40% not even the weight of passengers can slow things down :)

There does seem to be a lot more vegetation around the network - I am assuming works were curtailed during initial lockdown
 

MisterT

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Whilst magnetic track brakes are helpful on trams and urban railways, they're simply not needed for heavy rail applications.
I disagree with that statement. We've had magnetic track brakes on our passenger trains in the Netherlands for many years now (and are basically standard on all new passenger trains on the continent) and they offer a shorter braking distance in emergency braking applications.
We (my employer, NS) have even come to the point where an older EMU type without magnetic track brakes is not allowed to drive on its own during the slippery autumn and winter seasons and has to be paired with an EMU that has magnetic track brakes, to shorten the braking distance. This rule was applied after incidents that could have been prevented, had the trains been equipped with magnetic track brake (our SGM type EMUs, for those who want to know specifics. The 2-car trains don't have magnetic track brakes, but the 3-car version has, so the 2-car has to be coupled up with a 3-car train set during autumn and winter).
And I can say from my own experience: they absolutely help.
It depends a bit on the train type, but usually they are only applied at lower speeds (below 70 km/h) when the emergency brake is used. Most trains use electromagnets, but we also have a train type that has permanent magnets, and those are used as a parking brake as well (on our VIRM trains), so besides emergency braking they can have a different use as well.
 
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DustyBin

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So presumably then the track brakes on the Metro fleet are electro magnetic? I'd aways assumed they were pneumatically operated although thinking about it you’d hear air being exhausted if they were. I hadn’t given it much thought to be honest, all quite interesting!
 

Jozhua

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So from what I can tell, the confusion is around wether the brakes use magnetic force to actually slow the train, or just use magnets to release a big rubber shoe that actually slows the train?

My instinct is that it's probably a big rubber shoe, because as much as I love the metrocars, they aren't the cutting edge of technology :lol:

Eddy brakes does seem like a good idea. I'm presuming new trains will have the train equivalent of ABS.

PS. If they wanted to go full Elon Musk, just replace the whole thing with roller-coaster technology, have linear induction motors to push the cars in and out of the stations with 3G of acceleration/deceleration. Would reduce journey times across the board!

No more worries about leaves on the line neither!
 

ModernRailways

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So from what I can tell, the confusion is around wether the brakes use magnetic force to actually slow the train, or just use magnets to release a big rubber shoe that actually slows the train?

My instinct is that it's probably a big rubber shoe, because as much as I love the metrocars, they aren't the cutting edge of technology :lol:

Eddy brakes does seem like a good idea. I'm presuming new trains will have the train equivalent of ABS.

PS. If they wanted to go full Elon Musk, just replace the whole thing with roller-coaster technology, have linear induction motors to push the cars in and out of the stations with 3G of acceleration/deceleration. Would reduce journey times across the board!

No more worries about leaves on the line neither!

Metrocars use magnetic track brakes.
 

DustyBin

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Metrocars use magnetic track brakes.

Which, if I’m correct, means the brake ‘block’ is drawn to the top of the rail by an electro-magnetic force? Presumably some kind of return spring them lifts it back up when the electro magnet is turned off/the brake is released?
 

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