Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

From May 2022 (the original start date / time of the new super timetable according to the 2017 Invitation to Tender document), Southeastern will be running a half-hourly Blackfriars to Maidstone East service.

At the same time, the off-peak stopping service to Gillingham / Faversham / Dover ceases to exist, replaced by adding stops into the Ramsgate / Dover “fast” (now much slower) services. Victoria to Ashford stays half-hourly.

Based on capacity available, this means that the new service from Blackfriars to Maidstone is almost certain to run via Catford; one assumes with Denmark Hill stops.

Maidstone East will get a Conductor depot at the same time.

4-SUB 4732 said:

From May 2022 (the original start date / time of the new super timetable according to the 2017 Invitation to Tender document), Southeastern will be running a half-hourly Blackfriars to Maidstone East service.

At the same time, the off-peak stopping service to Gillingham / Faversham / Dover ceases to exist, replaced by adding stops into the Ramsgate / Dover “fast” (now much slower) services. Victoria to Ashford stays half-hourly.

Based on capacity available, this means that the new service from Blackfriars to Maidstone is almost certain to run via Catford; one assumes with Denmark Hill stops.

Maidstone East will get a Conductor depot at the same time.

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I’m sure I read about something similar in Modern railways not long a go as an interim measure for the planned Thameslink service

It definitely isn’t an interim measure now - if they feel the need to have a conductor depot. If it’s interim they’ll keep the conductors at Tonbridge and Ashford.

These will probably also stop at Elephant & Castle as this was the original plan and SE also stop there services there went running to/from London Blackfriars

You mean Ramsgate trains will stop at Teynham, Sole Street etc? They really want you to use the Javelin don't they!

Sad Sprinter said:

You mean Ramsgate trains will stop at Teynham, Sole Street etc? They really want you to use the Javelin don't they!

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That is it, yes.

The document states:

- There will be an all-day, 2tph service from Victoria to Faversham. This will call at Bromley South and Swanley; with one train per hour stopping at St Mary Cray. In addition, at high peak, both trains will stop at St Mary Cray. All trains call at Longfield and Meopham; only one an hour stops at Farningham Road and Sole Street. They will probably stop at one or the other. Newington and Teynham are also one an hour.
- There is a further requirement for a peak 2tph service from any London terminus (Blackfriars, Cannon Street or Victoria) to Rochester; and this must call at Swanley (but not necessarily Bromley South if the bidder chooses to use Victoria or Blackfriars) and Rochester. Farningham Road - Sole Street intermediate stations may be served by one train per hour only; so you could in theory run one fast to Rochester and one all stops; or skip-stop; or all stop.
- Finally, the Cannon Street peak 2tph service is protected fast from London Bridge to Rochester.

- Of the above peak services (4tph, 2tph minimum from Cannon Street and then 2tph from Blackfriars / Cannon Street / Victoria), three will extend to Faversham. 2tph from this 3 will call at Newington and Teynham.

- The ITT document suggests, effectively, that all services from Victoria to Faversham (the off-peak ones at least) will be to Dover. However, other rules apply.

- The Faversham to Ramsgate section will be operated by 1tph High Speed, and 1tph from Victoria. So, it would suggest 1tph from Victoria will be a portion Ramsgate / Dover, and one will be a through Dover.

- Of the 3tph peak from London (2 Cannon, 1 Blackfriars/Cannon/Vic), 2tph will extend to Ramsgate. One will terminate at Faversham.

Therefore, I suggest the most likely combination will be:

Off Peak
2tph Blackfriars to Maidstone East via Catford
2tph Victoria to Ashford Intl via Maidstone East
1tph Victoria to Ramsgate & Dover Priory
1tph Victoria to Dover Priory
1tph St Pancras to Ramsgate via Faversham (possibly beyond)
1tph St Pancras to Faversham

Peak
2tph Blackfriars to Maidstone East via Catford
2tph Victoria to Ashford Intl via Maidstone East
2tph Victoria to Dover Priory
2tph Cannon Street to Broadstairs / Ramsgate via Chatham
2tph St Pancras to Ramsgate via Faversham
1tph Victoria to Faversham local
1tph Victoria to Rochester local

Otherwise, it gets messy. It is part of a move towards a repeating 30-minute timetable, the current 22 minute principle being abandoned for good.

That's a shame, even with HS1 to Victoria to Ramsgate service was still pretty decent. Unlike the Charing Cross services.

At least it'll breathe some life into Blackfriars a bit.

As a side note-does anyone know what happened to the long-distance peak services from Blackfriars? I remember about five years ago, Blackfriars had trains to Broadstairs and Dover in the peaks-which now seem to have been discontinued.

4-SUB 4732 said:

From May 2022 (the original start date / time of the new super timetable according to the 2017 Invitation to Tender document), Southeastern will be running a half-hourly Blackfriars to Maidstone East service.

At the same time, the off-peak stopping service to Gillingham / Faversham / Dover ceases to exist, replaced by adding stops into the Ramsgate / Dover “fast” (now much slower) services. Victoria to Ashford stays half-hourly.

Based on capacity available, this means that the new service from Blackfriars to Maidstone is almost certain to run via Catford; one assumes with Denmark Hill stops.

Maidstone East will get a Conductor depot at the same time.

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If you're basing this solely on a 2017 tender document I'd suggest that perhaps this is somewhat out-of-date and who knows what will be happening post Covid / Williams Review.

That being said of course Thameslink were always meant to run their service through to Cambridge from Maidstone East and many SE punters were a little peeved this was removed and has never really come back so its something of a ambition to return these. That being said the Catford loop is a lot more congested than it once was - was there any chance this would run via the Chislehurst loop instead or was that solely TL? - so not so easy to fit it in.

However if it's at the expense of the off-peak Victoria services that solves that problem but benefits Mid-Kent more and screws the Medway towns. Plus Victoria - Denmark Hill has a considerable flow which you'd be restricting to Dartford services now.

Edit: I guess by association this somewhat extinguishes any hope of that TL service running.

Sad Sprinter said:

As a side note-does anyone know what happened to the long-distance peak services from Blackfriars? I remember about five years ago, Blackfriars had trains to Broadstairs and Dover in the peaks-which now seem to have been discontinued.

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The Thameslink programme and a ramping up of TL services. There are still some peak SE services from Blackfriars, but you might not see them right now if they're not running during Covid.

Horizon22 said:

If you're basing this solely on a 2017 tender document I'd suggest that perhaps this is somewhat out-of-date and who knows what will be happening post Covid / Williams Review.

That being said of course Thameslink were always meant to run their service through to Cambridge from Maidstone East and many SE punters were a little peeved this was removed and has never really come back so its something of a ambition to return these. That being said the Catford loop is a lot more congested than it once was - was there any chance this would run via the Chislehurst loop instead or was that solely TL? - so not so easy to fit it in.

However if it's at the expense of the off-peak Victoria services that solves that problem but benefits Mid-Kent more and screws the Medway towns. Plus Victoria - Denmark Hill has a considerable flow which you'd be restricting to Dartford services now.

Edit: I guess by association this somewhat extinguishes any hope of that TL service running.



The Thameslink programme and a ramping up of TL services. There are still some peak SE services from Blackfriars, but you might not see them right now if they're not running during Covid.

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The Victoria to Denmark Hill flow certainly adds some fuel to the question of whether scrapping the South London Line was a good idea. Isn't a Hayes to Victoria service planned to servce this flow?

Sad Sprinter said:

The Victoria to Denmark Hill flow certainly adds some fuel to the question of whether scrapping the South London Line was a good idea. Isn't a Hayes to Victoria service planned to servce this flow?

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I believe there was talk of doubling the Vic - Lewisham service to 4tph (via Denmark Hill of course) - 2tph to Dartford/Gravesend now via Sidcup, and 2tph to Hayes. Blackheath and onwards would lose their Victoria connection.

That would compensate the slow Dover (there are also peak inbound calls from other services at Denmark Hill) - and of course, this would represent an increase on services to Elephant (fair guess) and Blackfriars - as these Maidstones are pegged for half-hourly. I wonder if they would call (or need to call) anywhere else after Denmark Hill. Peckham Rye is as busy, and a big interchange too (with new station development coming) - but Catford or Bellingham might be useful for pathing.

Assuming the 2tph Sevenoaks and 2tph Orpington TL services remained, Denmark Hill would then have 6tph to Blackfriars, and if the above Victoria plans go ahead, at least 4tph to Victoria, with more in the AM peak. Not bad. Definitely puts a lot more across Brockley too

Sad Sprinter said:

The Victoria to Denmark Hill flow certainly adds some fuel to the question of whether scrapping the South London Line was a good idea. Isn't a Hayes to Victoria service planned to servce this flow?

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Yes that is planned to divert to Victoria, but I cannot remember if that was the Cannon St or Charing Cross terminators without looking it up - I believe it was the latter. I'm also not sure that's particular sensible as those in the Beckenham area can use the Chatham Mainline to access Victoria and often do. Again these are all based on tender documents that are pretty out of date now considering Southeastern had about 5 direct awards and franchising has been ripped up.

Plus of course long term the Bakerloo line extension is gaining traction which wipes NR off the map entirely down to Hayes, although TfL have to find some money for that first. It's all very up in the air at the moment.

Trying to answer all points here:

- The 2022 Timetable will see the Maidstone East service (Southeastern replacement for Thameslink) still run even on Sundays; but on Sunday it runs via the Chislehurst loops and Grove Park to London Bridge and then Cannon Street or Charing Cross at bidder discretion. This is every 30 minutes.

- During the Monday to Saturday period, however, it will operate via Catford (which therefore only has to accommodate a fast path every 30 minutes during off-peak, which is perfectly adequate) to Blackfriars.

- The Victoria to Ashford stays at 30-minutely via Herne Hill; albeit fast from Victoria to Bromley South.

- Once Thameslink have sorted themselves out and got the Welwyn to Sevenoaks running, that means Southeastern effectively have free use of the two bay platforms. A half-hourly Maidstone, half-hourly Beckenham additional Metro service and I strongly suspect a half-hourly Blackfriars to Medway are likely. I don’t see the peak Medway extras being from Victoria but I would like to be surprised.

- Victoria to Lewisham will be half-hourly from May 2022, all day. Half-hourly to Hayes and at least Crayford via Sidcup each. So Victoria to Denmark Hill will be very reasonably satisfied. So will Denmark Hill and Peckham to Lewisham.

- I do not suspect the peak services from Victoria / Blackfriars to Medway will stop at anything other than Denmark Hill (maybe Elephant if using Blackfriars); but the Blackfriars to Maidstone I suspect will be Elephant and Denmark Hill all day. Two major reasons: one, the draw on Hospitals and interchange to LO; two, the fact that not-stopping simply adds a few minutes of recovery time and the same passing time at Shortlands as you’ll catch an Orpington / Sevenoaks anyway.

- Hayes will have 6tph at peak. 2tph Victoria, 4tph Charing Cross. All Charing Cross peak services are fast to/from Ladywell. So only half-hourly at Lewisham, which is in my view a huge shame. Same for the Sidcup line. There will be in 2022 no Sidcup terminating services. All 10tph run at least to/from Crayford; and only the 2tph to Victoria run via Lewisham! The 4tph to both Cannon Street and Charing Cross are fast from Hither Green; although it is expected the Cannon Street services will stop at New Cross.

4-SUB 4732 said:

Once Thameslink have sorted themselves out and got the Welwyn to Sevenoaks running, that means Southeastern effectively have free use of the two bay platforms. A half-hourly Maidstone, half-hourly Beckenham additional Metro service and I strongly suspect a half-hourly Blackfriars to Medway are likely. I don’t see the peak Medway extras being from Victoria but I would like to be surprised.

- Victoria to Lewisham will be half-hourly from May 2022, all day. Half-hourly to Hayes and at least Crayford via Sidcup each. So Victoria to Denmark Hill will be very reasonably satisfied. So will Denmark Hill and Peckham to Lewisham.

- I do not suspect the peak services from Victoria / Blackfriars to Medway will stop at anything other than Denmark Hill (maybe Elephant if using Blackfriars); but the Blackfriars to Maidstone I suspect will be Elephant and Denmark Hill all day. Two major reasons: one, the draw on Hospitals and interchange to LO; two, the fact that not-stopping simply adds a few minutes of recovery time and the same passing time at Shortlands as you’ll catch an Orpington / Sevenoaks anyway.

- Hayes will have 6tph at peak. 2tph Victoria, 4tph Charing Cross. All Charing Cross peak services are fast to/from Ladywell. So only half-hourly at Lewisham, which is in my view a huge shame. Same for the Sidcup line. There will be in 2022 no Sidcup terminating services. All 10tph run at least to/from Crayford; and only the 2tph to Victoria run via Lewisham! The 4tph to both Cannon Street and Charing Cross are fast from Hither Green; although it is expected the Cannon Street services will stop at New Cross.

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Lots to unpick here!

I was wondering about the Welwyn half of the Maidstone. So this will be an additional Sevenoaks frequency? Or twinned to a Kentish Town?

I think you mean Victoria-Lewisham quarter-hourly? If so that's great. Will there be any issues pathing that increase through Brixton? Would all 4 services call at Nunhead? And all Thameslink for that matter? It would have 4tph to each of Victoria and Blackfriars - pretty great service.

Medway - if Victoria, could this not be 12 car in theory? Whereas Elephant and Denmark Hill are limited to 8? Blackfriars of course is fine with 12, but I think any SE service out of Blackfriars really needs another inner call for demand, it's just not going to be as busy as Victoria or LB etc...

Hayes - isn't it just half-hourly to Lewisham as it stands today?
The Sidcup line frequencies are good, but only 2tph to Lewisham does seem low. The connections at New Cross for the ELL will be ok, but just 2tph feeding the DLR isn't great. Whereas the Greenwich line has everything calling at Greenwich (and will have Crossrail + Woolwich Arsenal DLR!)

Horizon22 said:

Yes that is planned to divert to Victoria, but I cannot remember if that was the Cannon St or Charing Cross terminators without looking it up - I believe it was the latter. I'm also not sure that's particular sensible as those in the Beckenham area can use the Chatham Mainline to access Victoria and often do. Again these are all based on tender documents that are pretty out of date now considering Southeastern had about 5 direct awards and franchising has been ripped up.

Plus of course long term the Bakerloo line extension is gaining traction which wipes NR off the map entirely down to Hayes, although TfL have to find some money for that first. It's all very up in the air at the moment.

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I don’t do conspiracy theories, but I was told the idea was to make the Hayes line’s passenger numbers slightly fall; so folk use other stations in the area (Catford, Kent House) and therefore it makes a compelling case for the Bakerloo line as the route needs to be “revitalised”. It’s a stitch up from the DfT and they’re pretty much committed to the Bakerloo extension to Hayes and Beckenham Junction (but not then on conventional tracks to Bromley).

cle said:

Lots to unpick here!

I was wondering about the Welwyn half of the Maidstone. So this will be an additional Sevenoaks frequency? Or twinned to a Kentish Town?

I think you mean Victoria-Lewisham quarter-hourly? If so that's great. Will there be any issues pathing that increase through Brixton? Would all 4 services call at Nunhead? And all Thameslink for that matter? It would have 4tph to each of Victoria and Blackfriars - pretty great service.

Medway - if Victoria, could this not be 12 car in theory? Whereas Elephant and Denmark Hill are limited to 8? Blackfriars of course is fine with 12, but I think any SE service out of Blackfriars really needs another inner call for demand, it's just not going to be as busy as Victoria or LB etc...

Hayes - isn't it just half-hourly to Lewisham as it stands today?
The Sidcup line frequencies are good, but only 2tph to Lewisham does seem low. The connections at New Cross for the ELL will be ok, but just 2tph feeding the DLR isn't great. Whereas the Greenwich line has everything calling at Greenwich (and will have Crossrail + Woolwich Arsenal DLR!)

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Not quite. The existing half-hourly peak service from Welwyn to Kings Cross which stops at places like New Barnet will be diverted to Blackfriars and then run the existing Blackfriars to Sevenoaks sector. The Orpington bit only runs at peak at the moment and goes to Luton.

The Cambridge stopper to Kings Cross will stay as it is. The Maidstone East bit that should have been a through service from Cambridge will then just terminate at Blackfriars.

Just to clarify, is this all based on the 2017 invitation to tender? Which took place before May 2018, before the numerous franchise extensions, before Covid? Is there any newer info?

cle said:

Lots to unpick here!

I was wondering about the Welwyn half of the Maidstone. So this will be an additional Sevenoaks frequency? Or twinned to a Kentish Town?

I think you mean Victoria-Lewisham quarter-hourly? If so that's great. Will there be any issues pathing that increase through Brixton? Would all 4 services call at Nunhead? And all Thameslink for that matter? It would have 4tph to each of Victoria and Blackfriars - pretty great service.

Medway - if Victoria, could this not be 12 car in theory? Whereas Elephant and Denmark Hill are limited to 8? Blackfriars of course is fine with 12, but I think any SE service out of Blackfriars really needs another inner call for demand, it's just not going to be as busy as Victoria or LB etc...

Hayes - isn't it just half-hourly to Lewisham as it stands today?
The Sidcup line frequencies are good, but only 2tph to Lewisham does seem low. The connections at New Cross for the ELL will be ok, but just 2tph feeding the DLR isn't great. Whereas the Greenwich line has everything calling at Greenwich (and will have Crossrail + Woolwich Arsenal DLR!)

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Also I did indeed mean quarter-hourly Victoria - Lewisham. And, by the documentation...

First service from Crayford to Lewisham must arrive at Lewisham by 05:15 M-F, and that goes on to Victoria. Assume first Victoria arrival therefore around 05:40.
First service from Hayes to Lewisham must arrive at Lewisham by 05:35 M-F, and that also goes to Victoria. So that's into Victoria about 06:00.

In the other direction, first train from Lewisham to Sidcup leaves before 05:00, so somehow that means a service from Victoria at about 04:35, unless they have dispensation early doors to run out of Charing Cross or Cannon Street. That said, the last train from Victoria leaves at around 00:25 for Crayford via Sidcup.

As for Hayes, first train from Lewisham to Hayes leaves at 06:10, giving a Victoria departure time at about 05:45. This seems right.
Last train to Hayes leaves Lewisham at 00:10 or slightly later, so a 23:45-23:50 departure from Victoria.

Either way, it is interesting to see the very early Victoria arrival from Lewisham (and Sidcup etc) at 05:40; and potentially an 05:45 service from Victoria to Hayes. On top of that, a 00:25 Crayford from Victoria.

Based on this, they will probably interwork e.g. a pair of 465s will be Dartford / Crayford - Victoria - Hayes - Victoria - Crayford / Dartford.

Bit confused where this is coming from, can you link to your source material? The 2017 ITT documentation is dead as a dodo...

It’s not dead. It will be brought into use.

A query about the Chatham main line: is it correct that the offpeak service is reduced from 3 to 2 tph? I find this surprising, given that just about every other route maintains or increases its service.
I took the half-hourly Faversham almost-all-stations and the hourly Vic-Ramsgate to be separate services - the reverse of now where there is one stopper and two faster.
Happy to be corrected - it's a long time since I skimmed the document!

30907 said:

A query about the Chatham main line: is it correct that the offpeak service is reduced from 3 to 2 tph? I find this surprising, given that just about every other route maintains or increases its service.
I took the half-hourly Faversham almost-all-stations and the hourly Vic-Ramsgate to be separate services - the reverse of now where there is one stopper and two faster.
Happy to be corrected - it's a long time since I skimmed the document!

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Sadly nope - it drops to 2tph in all. The Ramsgate / Dover service picks up the local stops sadly.

4-SUB 4732 said:

It’s not dead. It will be brought into use.

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Does this include the required Fast services from Ashford via Tonbridge?

Class 466 said:

Does this include the required Fast services from Ashford via Tonbridge?

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Yes.

So off peak, there will only be 2tph running from Swanley to Rochester while adding 5-6 minutes to the fastest journey times? They're virtually begging for more people to use HS1 at this point!

AverageTD said:

So off peak, there will only be 2tph running from Swanley to Rochester while adding 5-6 minutes to the fastest journey times? They're virtually begging for more people to use HS1 at this point!

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It's to force people to spend more...

So if I understand it correctly, Thameslink will no longer be operating the Maidstone East service they were planning to operate?

I thought part of the Kings Cross remodelling work needed the service to continue through the core in order to free up platforms for more LNER and GN outer services?

700007 said:

So if I understand it correctly, Thameslink will no longer be operating the Maidstone East service they were planning to operate?

I thought part of the Kings Cross remodelling work needed the service to continue through the core in order to free up platforms for more LNER and GN outer services?

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In years gone by, off peak, they ran:
- 2tph Peterborough
- 2tph Cambridge (1 semi fast, 1 stopping)
- 2tph Kings Lynn

Some periods also saw fast services from Peterborough. Peak saw the addition of the Royston fasts, and the Welwyn semi-fast.

So if you're asking when they take one platform away can they accommodate Cambridge slow and Kings Lynn trains off-peak, the answer is definitely yes.

AverageTD said:

So off peak, there will only be 2tph running from Swanley to Rochester while adding 5-6 minutes to the fastest journey times? They're virtually begging for more people to use HS1 at this point!

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Quite - and as a one-time user of the Chatham main line, it annoys/depresses me. To be fair, though, the 4tph frequency East of Gillingham is the same as pre HS2.

I worked in South East London for a company with Head Offices in Margate so I know a bit about the line. I used to travel to and from Thanet on occasion. I'm not sure I like that as a service. It slows down the fast service too much personally. I appreciate HS1 is there, but theres the market to Bromley and Victoria. I think there should still be a half hourly fast VIC-BMS-RTR. But there we go!

4-SUB 4732 said:

It's to force people to spend more...

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Because HS1 and it’s trains in the peak are all completely empty of course... this all in all solves nothing. I’m just hopeful the HS Rounders are now gone for good.

4tph to Maidstone is quite an improvement, and one does wonder what the resultant calling pattern will be for them all between Bromley South/Swanley and Maidstone/Ashford. If I was doing it I'd have 2tph semi-fast minimum between Bromley South and Maidstone, either BMS-SAY-OTF-BRG-WMA-MDE, or if they wanted to be pre-2009 nostalgic skip all but West Malling and Maidstone East (although inc. BMS given they're not Cannon St starters). The semi-fast bit could be split one each between the Blackfriars and Victoria services. There's also the question of whether for the Ashford one they'll keep the semi-fast alternating pattern, where 1tph is semi-fast west of Maidstone and the other 1tph semi-fast east, or make one all stations throughout and the other semi-fast throughout, or both all stations east of Maidstone.

Are there any ideas on what rolling stock allocations will be available for these extra Maidstone services? Assuming the 377s retain their sub-lease at SE, 707s probably won't be able to do any without toilets, which means it'll be down to Networkers and 375s. The former might see increased availability for this line as the stopping Chatham Mainline services being cut were/are Networker dominated (although 375s do exist for some services). However they'd have to be 6-car max unless platform lengthening at Barming and Kemsing is made to 8 cars (or skip them on such allocations), but then again a doubling in service frequency might mean they don't have to be longer than 6 if the Ashford ones remain 8 car dominated.