Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

Watershed · 14 Oct 2021

BrianW said:
How early and late the possible direct services- will they work for airport workers?

They will almost certainly be a continuation of the what's currently running between Sheffield and the Airport - i.e. trains running in marginal time.

I would be very surprised if anyone who has to commute to the Airport at silly o'clock does so by train, and from Sheffield.

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Starmill · 14 Oct 2021

Most airport jobs won't be paid well enough for people to live further than local walking, cycling, or a local bus ride away from the airport. Those that are will be people who can also afford to drive there in their expensive car.

Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2021

Starmill said:
Most airport jobs won't be paid well enough for people to live further than local walking, cycling, or a local bus ride away from the airport. Those that are will be people who can also afford to drive there in their expensive car.

A very large number of the Airport's low paid workers live in Wythenshawe and thereabouts - it's what the (currently not running) crack of dawn tram service on that route was for. I seem to recall it ran from Cornbrook with no connection from Manchester.

There are a lot of other businesses near the Airport, though, a bit like the way tech type businesses grew in Uxbridge because of proximity to Heathrow.

tbtc · 14 Oct 2021

Bletchleyite said:
So what you're saying is that a relatively low-used local stopping service should have priority over a much higher-used regional service?

Talking of the CLC stopper we have:
Warrington C: will use the half hourly fast
Birchwood: will use the hourly fast
Glazebrook: about as useful as Dent, Bescar Lane and the likes - in the middle of nowhere and very low usage
Irlam, Flixton: probably the two losers, but may receive calls in the fast(s) and certainly used to in the morning peak
Chassen Road: quite near Flixton; due to the presence of a large park has a very small catchment indeed
Urmston: will get a call in one of the fasts I believe
Humphrey Park and Trafford Park: quite close in and well served by buses, unlikely to be busy unless they were Metrolinked with 5tph

So not practically a huge loss, compared with the Liverpool side where things look more like the rest of Merseyrail.

Bletchleyite said:
I don't think 2-3 minutes on the CLC fasts will really be noticed

Maybe not a huge loss and the delays won't be noticed to some people

But, whilst we are spending billions of pounds to give Manchester fast new lines to Leeds/ Birmingham/ London, we are seeing the link between Liverpool and Sheffield downgraded by picking up a few local stops (because there's no space for two local services on the line each hour, because Southport takes priority over the finite number of Castlefield slots)

Maybe that's ten minutes worth of extra duration for Liverpool - Sheffield services (at a time when we are spending all of this money to give Manchester significantly faster services to other cities)

It's not a problem if you're in Manchester - it's more of an issue if you are seeing your journey between two of the other large cities in northern England being slowed down to stop at places like Urmston

Thanks Southport!

Starmill said:
We need to focus on genuine network efficiency. It will make the cuts easier to cope with when they come.

Agreed - I think some people are in denial about the future - just because the only cuts announced have come far away (ScotRail, SWR) -

Watershed said:
arguing about semantics doesn't change the reality. All CLC passengers, regardless of whether they take the fast or slow trains, will suffer as a result of the Southport service. Running to Castlefield is a matter of choice for Southport services, but not for CLC ones, and one that benefits far fewer people than it disbenefits

Agreed - the CLC can only serve Castlefield - all of the other lines into Manchester from the west are able to serve Victoria or Castlefield - a Castlefield path is a luxury for Southport passengers but an essential for CLC passengers

Killingworth · 14 Oct 2021

Starmill said:
Most airport jobs won't be paid well enough for people to live further than local walking, cycling, or a local bus ride away from the airport. Those that are will be people who can also afford to drive there in their expensive car.

I'd disagree. Whilst there aren't all that many travelling from Sheffield I counted 6 on the 5.15 from Dore & Totley alone going through to the airport when I used that train. Some possibly air passengers, at that hour I didn't look too closely. Pre-Covid pilots, cabin crew and ground staff were regular users to the airport. TPE offered a special railcard for them.

Starmill · 14 Oct 2021

Another way of looking at it which would probably be more helpful.

What would have been so bad about half-hourly Stalybridge - Manchester Victoria - Bolton - Wigan Wallgate - Southport? That way they'd have kept closer to half-hourly too.

Halish Railway · 14 Oct 2021

Starmill said:
Another way of looking at it which would probably be more helpful.

What would have been so bad about half-hourly Stalybridge - Manchester Victoria - Bolton - Wigan Wallgate - Southport? That way they'd have kept closer to half-hourly too.

Politics and the disproportionate mobilisation of railway campaigners in Southport. Operationally your idea makes perfect sense and is probably the best way to serve the Westhoughton line.

As for a bit of speculation, I predict that post electrification this idea will come to fruition, albeit terminating at Wigan Northwestern instead of Southport, as well as the Southport to Castlefield corridor service being diverted to serve Golborne, taking the path of the North Wales to Manchester service that would be diverted via Northwich once the relevant infrastructure works are completed, with the Southport to Leeds via Atheron service returning to serve the Southport to Victoria market. All this without adding any more conflicts or services to the Castlefield corridor.

So if there’s anything to be taken away, the most important scheme would be to upgrade the Northwich line, that way the Soundgrounders get their Piccadilly service, Golborne actually gets a usable service and Wigan has a limited stop service to Manchester.

Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2021

Starmill said:
Another way of looking at it which would probably be more helpful.

What would have been so bad about half-hourly Stalybridge - Manchester Victoria - Bolton - Wigan Wallgate - Southport? That way they'd have kept closer to half-hourly too.

How bad that would have been depends entirely on the quality of the connection at Bolton/Salford Crescent towards Castlefield. The timetables really should have been published.

If the connection was of high quality to both trains that might even be seen as an upgrade. If a 25 minute wait was involved, rather less so.

js1000 · 14 Oct 2021

Good to hear the Northern express stopper from Liverpool to Manchester Airport is going to be retained. Northern were never going to drop that service in all honesty.

Ianno87 · 14 Oct 2021

Bletchleyite said:
How bad that would have been depends entirely on the quality of the connection at Bolton/Salford Crescent towards Castlefield. The timetables really should have been published.

If the connection was of high quality to both trains that might even be seen as an upgrade. If a 25 minute wait was involved, rather less so.

Bolton-Castlefield was 4tph - and if Option C lived up to its premise then that would be a train every 15 minutes, give or take.

tbtc said:
Maybe that's ten minutes worth of extra duration for Liverpool - Sheffield services

Being devil's advocate, the journey time extension is offset (potentially more than offset) in Generalised Journey Time terms by doubling the frequency.

ARIC · 15 Oct 2021

Fokx said:
They won’t and they don’t.

Manchester Piccadilly sees larger amount of passengers travelling to and from the East than Victoria does in terms of passenger numbers (not including those to/from Liverpool)

Quite a large number of Manchester to York passengers will be sold an advance for the Huddersfield stopper and then the Redcar service.
For Newcastle the same happens with the Hull train it directs you to swap at Huddersfield.

Passengers favour journey times over new trains vs refurbished ones.

Piccadilly provides better options for connectivity south, to/from the Airport from places like Hull and Huddersfield (due to journey times) and it’s closer to the leisure amenities (NQ, Primark etc), Piccadilly bus station, national express coach station, universities and the nightlife scene

There's always this weird view that Victoria is out in the sticks - it's a shorter walk to Primark (and indeed the entire retail heart of Manchester) than Piccadilly, and it's an equal walking time to the centre of NQ from both too.

There's a lot that can be done to highlight that Victoria isn't some backwater halt - it's a decent city centre location with great Metrolink connections across the city centre...indeed, it's better connected to Zone 1 stations than Piccadilly is!

But of course the other points still stand, and these make Piccadilly more desirable to many.

JonathanH · 15 Oct 2021

js1000 said:
Good to hear the Northern express stopper from Liverpool to Manchester Airport is going to be retained. Northern were never going to drop that service in all honesty.

It isn't. Liverpool to Manchester Airport is the stopper via Newton-le-Willows. The Northern express via Warrington Central becomes a TPE service to Cleethorpes.

Bletchleyite · 15 Oct 2021

Ianno87 said:
Bolton-Castlefield was 4tph - and if Option C lived up to its premise then that would be a train every 15 minutes, give or take.

Though would all of them (I'm thinking the Scotlands) carry passengers from Bolton to Manchester?

Ianno87 · 15 Oct 2021

Bletchleyite said:
Though would all of them (I'm thinking the Scotlands) carry passengers from Bolton to Manchester?

Never explicitly stated by the consultation. Though the direction of travel, pre-Covid, seemed to be for full Bolton stops to be re-instated on Scotland services (fully open without pick up / set down restrictions) once the capacity of the 397s became available. That has now been overtaken by events, it seems.

Manutd1999 · 15 Oct 2021

So, after months of consultation, what have we actually achieved compared to the pre-COVID timetable?

- The CLC airport semi-fast will be merged with the Cleethorpes service
- 1x CLC stopper will be peak only and stop at Warrington
- One less TPE running via the Chord and Castlefield (cut-back to Victoria)
- A few minor tweaks to ensure all services from Wigan/Kirkby continue on to the Calder Valley.

Fairly minor changes in the grand scheme of things, yet it has taken months (and it won't actually be implemented for another 12-18 months......).

Ianno87 · 15 Oct 2021

Manutd1999 said:
So, after months of consultation, what have we actually achieved compared to the pre-COVID timetable?

- The CLC airport semi-fast will be merged with the Cleethorpes service
- 1x CLC stopper will be peak only and stop at Warrington
- One less TPE running via the Chord and Castlefield (cut-back to Victoria)
- A few minor tweaks to ensure all services from Wigan/Kirkby continue on to the Calder Valley.

Fairly minor changes in the grand scheme of things, yet it has taken months (and it won't actually be implemented for another 12-18 months......).

I'd say a timetable proposal for Dec 2022 that isn't just blind hacking of services to solve performance issues (which is what they could have done) but making to seek best use of what infrastructure there is.

Greybeard33 · 15 Oct 2021

tbtc said:
Maybe not a huge loss and the delays won't be noticed to some people

But, whilst we are spending billions of pounds to give Manchester fast new lines to Leeds/ Birmingham/ London, we are seeing the link between Liverpool and Sheffield downgraded by picking up a few local stops (because there's no space for two local services on the line each hour, because Southport takes priority over the finite number of Castlefield slots)

Maybe that's ten minutes worth of extra duration for Liverpool - Sheffield services (at a time when we are spending all of this money to give Manchester significantly faster services to other cities)

It's not a problem if you're in Manchester - it's more of an issue if you are seeing your journey between two of the other large cities in northern England being slowed down to stop at places like Urmston

Thanks Southport!

Neither of the original Options B and C had any off-peak services from Southport to Castlefield; both had 2tph from Southport to Victoria/Stalybridge. But both these options also reduced the off peak CLC line stoppers between Warrington Central and Manchester from 2tph to 1tph and added calls to the Sheffield services, as does Option B+.

Furthermore, the consultation response document does not say that the CLC service changes are related to the B+ Southport - Oxford Road service. It gives the following rationale:

The need to reduce the frequency of trains on the Castlefield Corridor means that, off-peak, fewer services from Warrington Central will run. This decision is based on the relatively low loadings seen on this route outside peak periods.

Watershed · 15 Oct 2021

Manutd1999 said:
So, after months of consultation, what have we actually achieved compared to the pre-COVID timetable?

- The CLC airport semi-fast will be merged with the Cleethorpes service
- 1x CLC stopper will be peak only and stop at Warrington
- One less TPE running via the Chord and Castlefield (cut-back to Victoria)
- A few minor tweaks to ensure all services from Wigan/Kirkby continue on to the Calder Valley.

Fairly minor changes in the grand scheme of things, yet it has taken months (and it won't actually be implemented for another 12-18 months......).

There's quite a bit more behind the scenes in terms of changes to south Manchester electrics to make it all work, but yes. That's about the sum of the unhappy "compromise" that's been achieved.

Greybeard33 · 15 Oct 2021

Manutd1999 said:
So, after months of consultation, what have we actually achieved compared to the pre-COVID timetable?

- The CLC airport semi-fast will be merged with the Cleethorpes service
- 1x CLC stopper will be peak only and stop at Warrington
- One less TPE running via the Chord and Castlefield (cut-back to Victoria)
- A few minor tweaks to ensure all services from Wigan/Kirkby continue on to the Calder Valley.

Fairly minor changes in the grand scheme of things, yet it has taken months (and it won't actually be implemented for another 12-18 months......).

Plus, to improve Castlefield performance:

Southport - Alderley Edge becomes Southport to Oxford Road
Liverpool - Crewe via Airport becomes Liverpool - Airport (shorter route should improve timekeeping)
Blackpool - Hazel Grove becomes second Blackpool - Airport (fewer conflicts at Slade Lane Jn)
Barrow/Windermere - Airport runs via Bolton not Wigan (quicker route)
No TfW peak extras and no terminations in Picc P13

And, to improve Victoria performance:

Preston - Victoria is binned
Kirkby - Victoria is merged with Wigan - Blackburn via Todmorden, becoming Kirkby - Blackburn

A net reduction of 2tph off-peak, 3tph peak through Piccadilly P13/14 and a net reduction of 2tph at Victoria, with 1tph less terminating in the Vic through platforms.

Bletchleyite · 15 Oct 2021

I hadn't noticed Preston-Vic being removed. What picks up Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate (and Clifton once a blue moon)? Classically those were the Clitheroe's domain, but having a slow DMU do stopping services on an electrified line does eat capacity a bit.

CAF397 · 16 Oct 2021

Bletchleyite said:
I hadn't noticed Preston-Vic being removed. What picks up Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate (and Clifton once a blue moon)? Classically those were the Clitheroe's domain, but having a slow DMU do stopping services on an electrified line does eat capacity a bit.

They are currently in the Southport - Stalybridge stops so may well remain in that.

OrangeJuice · 16 Oct 2021

Does anyone know what the actual outcome of B+ timetable is on the South Manchester electric services, in particular those from Crewe to Manchester?
From option B it looked like both services would be routed via the Airport which is slower and lose the connection to Stockport for passengers between Crewe and Wilmslow. If good connections exist at Alderley Edge/Wilmslow then this wouldn't be as much of a loss but depends entirely on what the timetable is like which a lot of other posters mentioned isn't available!

I haven't been able to find any details in the consultation response when reading through as it seemed to focus on everyone else rather than the South Manchester services.

BrianW · 16 Oct 2021

Manutd1999 said:
So, after months of consultation, what have we actually achieved compared to the pre-COVID timetable?

Fairly minor changes in the grand scheme of things, yet it has taken months (and it won't actually be implemented for another 12-18 months......).

That, to my mind, is the gist of it. The 'process' needs sharpening up- it has become, understandably, more about political acceptance and who shouts loudest. The planners have been constained to keep as close as they could to what they thought best 'on the ground', somewhere between the former timetable (shown in practice to be over-ambitious and unreliable) and a more 'realistic' 12tph reasonably close to the previous 'ambition' which was intended to give the 'best fit' to perceived demand; they have done their best to balance the conflicts.

I have expressed scepticism often about the 'value' of 'consultation'. I wonder whether there will be a 'lessons learned' review of this consultation process (and generally) as to whether such processes could be beneficially shortened (or, for me, cut out). Those without the result they favoured continue to complain.

Purple Orange · 16 Oct 2021

OrangeJuice said:
Does anyone know what the actual outcome of B+ timetable is on the South Manchester electric services, in particular those from Crewe to Manchester?
From option B it looked like both services would be routed via the Airport which is slower and lose the connection to Stockport for passengers between Crewe and Wilmslow. If good connections exist at Alderley Edge/Wilmslow then this wouldn't be as much of a loss but depends entirely on what the timetable is like which a lot of other posters mentioned isn't available!

I haven't been able to find any details in the consultation response when reading through as it seemed to focus on everyone else rather than the South Manchester services.

As I understand, the only change would be terminating all services through Wilmslow at Piccadilly. I.e.

Crewe - Stockport - Piccadilly (northern stopper)
Alderley Edge - Stockport - Piccadilly (northern stopper)
Crewe - Airport - Piccadilly (northern stopper)
South Wales - Stockport - Piccadilly (TfW)
London - Crewe - Wilmslow - Stockport - Piccadilly (Avanti)

I am interested to know what units would used for Northern services through Stockport though.

LOL The Irony · 16 Oct 2021

Purple Orange said:
I am interested to know what units would used for Northern services through Stockport though.

It would be 323s and/or 331s.

Purple Orange · 16 Oct 2021

LOL The Irony said:
It would be 323s and/or 331s.

Quite likely. Therefore I wonder what combination of 3, 4 or 6 car-formations would be used and on what routes.

jfollows · 16 Oct 2021

Purple Orange said:
As I understand, the only change would be terminating all services through Wilmslow at Piccadilly. I.e.

Crewe - Stockport - Piccadilly (northern stopper)

Alderley Edge - Stockport - Piccadilly (northern stopper)

Crewe - Airport - Piccadilly (northern stopper)

South Wales - Stockport - Piccadilly (TfW)

London - Crewe - Wilmslow - Stockport - Piccadilly (Avanti)

I am interested to know what units would used for Northern services through Stockport though.

Essentially back to what it was before May 2018, which worked well at the time I think.

Greybeard33 · 16 Oct 2021

Bletchleyite said:
I hadn't noticed Preston-Vic being removed. What picks up Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate (and Clifton once a blue moon)? Classically those were the Clitheroe's domain, but having a slow DMU do stopping services on an electrified line does eat capacity a bit.

CAF397 said:
They are currently in the Southport - Stalybridge stops so may well remain in that.

We will have to wait for the timetable consultation to be sure, but the original Option B retained the hourly service at Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate, and the response document does not mention any change to this in B+. Presumably the Southport - Stalybridge service will still make the calls.

I think at least seven diagrams will be needed to cover both Southport - Oxford Road and Southport - Stalybridge. Therefore, even if 769 availability eventually improves sufficiently to achieve the target of a daily turnout of six units, at least one DMU diagram will still be needed and it seems likely that the Stalybridge route will keep the current 15x timings.

Regarding S Manchester services:

Purple Orange said:
Quite likely. Therefore I wonder what combination of 3, 4 or 6 car-formations would be used and on what routes.

Unlikely that unit types and formations will have been finalised yet. One passage in the consultation response says:

Now that passengers are returning to the railways, all the forecasts suggest they will not return to preCovid levels for the immediate future. Therefore, as elsewhere on the network, the reduced level of demand and changing nature of the market means it is possible that not all of the services in the new structure will definitely run at all times of the day from December 2022, but may instead be tailored to when and where passenger demand makes it appropriate to do so. This will be kept under close review so that services are introduced at the right time for passengers. Train operators will maintain regular dialogue with stakeholders and partners and make such decisions closer to the time.

Llandudno · 16 Oct 2021

Moonshot said:
Yes......the brief mentioned 6 car 331s. It looks like the prep work has actually started on the ground as a continuation of the recent blockade for upgrade of track and bridges in that area.

I travelled east of Manchester Victoria today (to Ashton) I noticed about 2 miles east of Victoria a new siding almost at completion, is this for turning back any current or potential Victoria terminators from the west?

CAF397 · 16 Oct 2021

Llandudno said:
I travelled east of Manchester Victoria today (to Ashton) I noticed about 2 miles east of Victoria a new siding almost at completion, is this for turning back any current or potential Victoria terminators from the west?

That's Collyhurst siding at Miles Platting Jn? There's an 09 stabled there to assist the freight shunting. Nothing to do with any passenger train turnback.

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