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To early to talk about Elizabeth Line extensions?

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Backroom_boy

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There have been lots of suggestions for crossrail expansions from the basic Elizabeth line but they've all been kicked into touch as either too expensive and / or bad BCRs.

What are worth reconsidering now? Could any of the underlying economics changed positively?
 
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zwk500

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From a pure practicality point of view, there's no viable option for any extension.
 

JonathanH

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What are worth reconsidering now? Could any of the underlying economics changed positively?
No extensions seem appropriate. Shenfield is the natural limit of operators on its branch, as are Reading and Heathrow.

The infrastructure at Abbey Wood doesn't lend itself to an extension either.

I note that the planning application for the 'London Theme Park' has been withdrawn. No one would want to pay for a rebuild of Dartford Station in any case.
 
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I would say throwing 2/4 tph down the new north mainline to High Wycombe might be an easy extension, with new stations at Acton (yes another Acton station!) and Greenford. I don't think the service need be any more frequent and I wouldn't have any of the planned Chiltern services going down to Old Oak Common.
 

JonathanH

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High Wycombe might be an easy extension,
Far from easy. It involves electrification, a complete redesign of Old Oak Common Station, more rolling stock, platform extensions and the suggestion it can be justified for 2 or 4tph isn't going to result in its funding. Mind you more than 2tph would also need more tracks on the Chiltern line. Probably a non starter.
 

Cambus731

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I personally couldn't see the point of extending it past Maidenhead.
That seemed to be Politics over operational sense
 

higthomas

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I personally couldn't see the point of extending it past Maidenhead.
That seemed to be Politics over operational sense
Why?
Reading seems to me like the natural terminus that side, being a major destination in its own right.
 

zwk500

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Far from easy. It involves electrification, a complete redesign of Old Oak Common Station, more rolling stock, platform extensions and the suggestion it can be justified for 2 or 4tph isn't going to result in its funding. Mind you more than 2tph would also need more tracks on the Chiltern line. Probably a non starter.
"probably" is quite the understatement. The NNML has been severed for OOC, you've mentioned the redesign that would be needed but also you'd need a grade-separated junction for which there is no space over or under the GWML.
 

Falcon1200

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I personally couldn't see the point of extending it past Maidenhead.
That seemed to be Politics over operational sense

For me Slough is the natural dividing point between all-stations inner suburban and limited stop outer suburban services, although I agree Reading is both a major destination itself and connectional location. A design of train better suited to hour-long plus journeys would make Elizabeth line services to Reading more attractive (to me anyway).
 

2192

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Tring was suggested at one time from Old Oak Common (OOC) via a souped up Acton Wharf branch then existing tracks under the fast LNW lines. This would have released space at Euston for HS2, but a modification of HS2 at Euston has rendered that less pressing. Grade separation would have been needed at OOC.
 

Bletchleyite

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The problem with the WCML is that it would arbitrarily split the service between two quite distant stations in London. For that reason it was not popular.

If Crossrail 2 will have a Euston Low Level I suspect that would be supported.
 

A S Leib

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There isn't any capacity either on the GEML or at Chelmsford station to terminate any Crossrail services there, is there?
 

JonathanH

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There isn't any capacity either on the GEML or at Chelmsford station to terminate any Crossrail services there, is there?
No. A two platform station on a congested two-track railway isn't ideal for terminating services. There isn't exactly scope for building extra platforms on the viaduct either.

Barking Riverside? Could do with more capacity between Barking and Central London.
The flat junction at Forest Gate couldn't cope with the extra traffic. There is enough demand on the Shenfield route as far as Romford to justify all of the services via Stratford going there in any case.
 

317 forever

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I wonder whether any trains upon arrival at Stratford from the west could divert to Tottenham Hale and then to Hertford East or Cambridge? I somehow doubt it though.
 

JonathanH

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I wonder whether any trains upon arrival at Stratford from the west could divert to Tottenham Hale and then to Hertford East or Cambridge? I somehow doubt it though.
Not possible at all. There is no connection from the tunnel portal to the Tottenham Hale line and it wouldn't be possible to engineer one either.
 

bluenoxid

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You get into new line territory really. Another suggestion although I’ve not seen it made anywhere officially is extending out of Heathrow Terminal 5 west towards Windsor or south towards Staines.
 

swt_passenger

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You get into new line territory really. Another suggestion although I’ve not seen it made anywhere officially is extending out of Heathrow Terminal 5 west towards Windsor or south towards Staines.
It’s official enough to be mentioned quite a few years ago, in the last Western and Wessex route studies? But I think via Staines towards the SWML is much more likely than towards Windsor, and far more likely to be a HEx replacement than a CR extension.
 

zwk500

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It’s official enough to be mentioned quite a few years ago, in the last Western and Wessex route studies?
It's always going to be mentioned in the strategic papers, but Windsor would never have sufficient business and Staines needs a solution for the Level Crossings.
 

JonathanH

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Didcot ?

Discuss as I have about pros and cons .
There are still people who would prefer the terminus of Reading to Didcot services to be Oxford. A four car 387 shuttle between platform 3 at Reading using the Festival Line and a bay platform at Oxford is probably the right service once the wires reach Oxford with passenger services on the relief lines to Reading wholly turned over to Crossrail.
 

D365

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Far from easy. It involves electrification, a complete redesign of Old Oak Common Station, more rolling stock, platform extensions and the suggestion it can be justified for 2 or 4tph isn't going to result in its funding. Mind you more than 2tph would also need more tracks on the Chiltern line. Probably a non starter.
I agree with all your reasoning, but the last time I checked the OOC Crossrail platforms, the centre two tracks were designed in such a way that the western turn-back sidings will point towards Northolt.
 

zwk500

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I agree with all your reasoning, but the last time I checked the OOC Crossrail platforms, the centre two tracks were designed in such a way that the western turn-back sidings will point towards Northolt.
No, the Up Relief will cut off the access to the NNML. Any proposal I have seen for Chiltern to reach OOC has involved constructing additional bays in the V between the GWML and HS2 stations.
 

Backroom_boy

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It's always going to be mentioned in the strategic papers, but Windsor would never have sufficient business and Staines needs a solution for the Level Crossings.
Howabout the Windsor central/Slough shuttle; is the capacity available on the GWML to add that to the core routes?
 

cle

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I always thought Windsor would have made a good branch for at least 2tph Crossrail. It would have needed just a single dive-under at Slough. Good intermediate turning point (especially now Slough is no longer turning slow services) - plus offpeak, counter, weekend/leisure demand, some business - would be well used. And eliminate some diesel running. Nice station too - the Crossrail unit would be halfway to Slough :)

Western, I can only see frequencies. Things being jigged around to gradually extend things west - be it more service to Heathrow or adding the odd Hayes or West Drayton teerminator, westwards from Paddington/OOC, if stopping patterns allow. It should be more of a metro for all of the stations. And a lot of TOD will see crazy demand, I think - plus a return to LHR business as usual.

Eastwards - there have been studies and I think there is a preferred extension to Ebbsfleet/Northfleet recently published. It involved more platforms at Dartford and taking on a lot more of the east of Dartford services, as I recall. Gravesend, I can't remember - it has the bay for 2tph at least. But I certainly don't think east of there is planned.
 

Irascible

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Why?
Reading seems to me like the natural terminus that side, being a major destination in its own right.
A major destination you'd take an inner-suburban service to? everythin stops there amyway, slow or fast. I'd have said Heathrow rather than Maidenhead maybe, but certainly sending what's not far removed from LU subsurface trains to Reading is too much. Plus, what investment do TfL have in outer Thames valley journeys? what do they care about someone going from Taplow to Reading?
 

JonathanH

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Howabout the Windsor central/Slough shuttle; is the capacity available on the GWML to add that to the core routes?
No. There is no sensible manner in which it would be possible to run Crossrail to the Windsor branch as it is on the wrong side at Slough with no space to build grade separation.

The premise of this thread is all wrong If anything, the routes need cutting back and being simplified, not extended.
 

JonathanH

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But that’s exactly why it would never have been considered a reasonable possibility.
Not least because an underground platform would be needed under Slough's existing station on that diveunder and then a steep incline to get back to the level of the Windsor branch.
 
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