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got a penalty for traveling Brighton to London Thameslink via Waterloo, appealed, still left £3.90 to pay, confused

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klv

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Hello,

I had a return Brighton to London Thameslink ticket with SDR code and was refused to walk out via barriers at Waterloo. They claimed the ticket is not valid for the train company I used and gave me a penalty printout. I challenged it, stating that the ticket did not have any company restrictioins and the route is valid according to this discussion. The return message was pretty confusing to me. They still claim my ticket was not valid ("You were travelling on a South Western train with a Southern Train ticket") but reduced the fee to £3.90. What's the next step? How do I challenge it further?
 
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hkstudent

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Hello,

I had a return Brighton to London Thameslink ticket with SDR code and was refused to walk out via barriers at Waterloo. They claimed the ticket is not valid for the train company I used and gave me a penalty printout. I challenged it, stating that the ticket did not have any company restrictioins and the route is valid according to this discussion. The return message was pretty confusing to me. They still claim my ticket was not valid ("You were travelling on a South Western train with a Southern Train ticket") but reduced the fee to £3.90. What's the next step? How do I challenge it further?
That's strange. £3.90 is the cost of Anytime single from Clapham Junction to Waterloo.

I am guessing, they claim the ticket is only valid up to Clapham Junction (and to Victoria) [thinking the ticket is a GTR only ticket, which is incorrect], so to "do you a favour" to not to charge you the penalty fare and instead to charge you a single fare from Clapham Junction to Waterloo as an "over-distance excess" (technically not the same, as excess is the difference between tickets, instead of a new full fare ticket).

You can choose to appeal further but expect a long hassle, or just to pay up and have peace of mind. Of course, I think other senior members here may have different opinions.
 
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Mike99

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Was the ticket you used priced at £47.30 SDR Brighton to London Thameslink?
 

gray1404

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I am of the opinion that the ticket you held originally was valid so you need to appeal again.

It can take multiple attempts, up to three times as appealing before common sense prevails but I would definitely persist in this.

Simply appeal again saying that's your ticket was routed Any Permitted and was not restricted to any particular train operator. Furthermore state that your ticket was valid via London Waterloo according to the routing guide. There for the penalty fare issued was incorrect and the original decision at first appeal was also wrong as they have not taken this into account and having these apply the rules incorrectly.

In the rejection to your first appeal they would have said how long you have to lodge a second appeal. I personally would also pay the £3.90 at this point just to avoid it escalating but knowing it will have to be refunded when you eventually win.

I'm sure others will be along shortly to give extracts from the routing guides to explain why it was valid. Separate two any appeal you may also wish to submit a customer service complaint to South Western Railway about the member of staff who wrongly issued the penalty fare on the basis that they are rejecting valid tickets. If the response is not satisfactory you can then appeal to the Rail Ombudsman. This is however separate to appeal of any penalty fare.
 

SargeNpton

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If the destination printed on the ticket was genuinely "London Thameslink" then it should only be valid to these stations: Farringdon, Blackfriars, St Pancras, City Thameslink, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.

As far as I can tell, the only routeing that could possibly be printed on the ticket are "Thameslink Only" or "Not Underground" - though I am surprised that the latter exists as it doesn't seem to fit with the purpose of the London Thameslink zone.

If your ticket was routed "Not Underground" then you could perhaps claim that via Waterloo was a valid route.
 

Mcr Warrior

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If the destination printed on the ticket was genuinely "London Thameslink" then it should only be valid to these stations: Farringdon, Blackfriars, St Pancras, City Thameslink, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.

As far as I can tell, the only routeing that could possibly be printed on the ticket are "Thameslink Only" or "Not Underground" - though I am surprised that the latter exists as it doesn't seem to fit with the purpose of the London Thameslink zone.

If your ticket was routed "Not Underground" then you could perhaps claim that via Waterloo was a valid route.
Believe that a Brighton -> London Thameslink Anytime Day Return (SDR) will normally be routed "Not Underground".

Concur that tickets from the South with 'London Thameslink' as the destination are valid to St. Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.
 

Bletchleyite

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As far as I can tell, the only routeing that could possibly be printed on the ticket are "Thameslink Only" or "Not Underground" - though I am surprised that the latter exists as it doesn't seem to fit with the purpose of the London Thameslink zone.

The whole point of London Thameslink is a "cut down" ticket to U1 for less money, so I don't see what is wrong with "Not Underground". The latter would allow Southern to East Croydon thence Thameslink, say, which might be desirable for those who don't like 700s very much and would prefer not to spend over an hour on one.
 

ainsworth74

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If the destination printed on the ticket was genuinely "London Thameslink" then it should only be valid to these stations: Farringdon, Blackfriars, St Pancras, City Thameslink, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.
Though as long as the journey was to one of those destinations that doesn't rule out going via Waterloo I'd have thought (routeing guide permitting of course!)?
 

Hadders

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We’ve had numerous debates in the past about whether a ticket to ‘London Thameslink’ is valid to Waterloo, Charing Cross etc without a definitive answer.

The rail industry certainly doesn’t want a ticket issued to London Thameslink to be valid to Waterloo. GTR published a leaflet (which is still on the National Rail website iirc) showing the validity of London Thameslink and London Terminals tickets.

Contractually, it’s not exactly clear if the ticket is valid to Waterloo and our advice in the past has always been that you cannot expect a hassle free journey if you use such a ticket to Waterloo.
 

Bletchleyite

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We’ve had numerous debates in the past about whether a ticket to ‘London Thameslink’ is valid to Waterloo, Charing Cross etc without a definitive answer.

The rail industry certainly doesn’t want a ticket issued to London Thameslink to be valid to Waterloo. GTR published a leaflet (which is still on the National Rail website iirc) showing the validity of London Thameslink and London Terminals tickets.

Contractually, it’s not exactly clear if the ticket is valid to Waterloo and our advice in the past has always been that you cannot expect a hassle free journey if you use such a ticket to Waterloo.

This being the case, as what is being asked is £3.90, the best thing to do is pay it as the problem them goes away. If the OP wants to separately challenge the validity of those tickets it's probably best done without the spectre of a possible Court summons for £3.90.

(Presumably a prosecution is not possible as the PF appeal succeeded?)
 

gray1404

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The Routeing Guide permits travel Clapham Jn–Waterloo then Waterloo East–Ldn Bridge then to Thameslink.
I agree.

Which map combinations did you find allowed this? This information will assist the OP with their second appeal.
 

Islineclear3_1

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I don't understand why the OP travelled via Clapham Junction and Waterloo when the TL train goes from Brighton to London Bridge directly. He could have then changed platform if he wanted Waterloo. Seems a bit convoluted to me and the OP hasn't stated his reason, i.e. meeting a friend.
 
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klv

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Was the ticket you used priced at £47.30 SDR Brighton to London Thameslink?
yes

If the OP wants to separately challenge the validity of those tickets it's probably best done without the spectre of a possible Court summons for £3.90.
How do I do that? Or rather, how do I challenge the fact that a Brighton to Kentish Town flexi season ticket did not let me out on Waterloo East gates today (in July a similar ticket always worked both there and at Waterloo). What's the procedure, and how do I use the ticket while appealing?

Which map combinations did you find allowed this? This information will assist the OP with their second appeal.
I have already explained it to them in the first appeal, it's LB map. They just keep on saying my ticket is company restricted, while it isn't.

I don't understand why the OP travelled via Clapham Junction and Waterloo when the TL train goes from Brighton to London Bridge directly. He could have then changed platform if he wanted Waterloo. Seems a bit convoluted to me and the OP hasn't stated his reason, i.e. meeting a friend.
I had indeed something to do at Waterloo, so I needed a stop. In the appeal I didn't state whether that was to meet a friend or an enemy though. I didn't explain the reason for my stop at Preston Park either but mentioned it too. I thought breaks of journey are just allowed?

also, the website doesn't allow me to challenge the remaining £3.90, as it finds the appeal already there as "accepted". The web interface doesn't allow me to file in another appeal.

It seems they have canceled the PCN because the PCN was issued the wrong way, so they didn't assess the reasons.
If I still don't want to pay the 3.90, do you think it'd be reasonable to file a free text complain to them?

The resolution says:
Dear ...,
To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction
with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will
both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information
about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk.
Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at
all. A penalty fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and
Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which has
an approved penalty fare scheme in place. Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty
fares station (as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a
penalty fares train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to
boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for
inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they
may be liable to pay a penalty fare.
The first thing an assessor will judge when handling an appeal is the train company's compliance with The
Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. Failure to comply may result in the appeal being won by
default, even where the circumstance presented by the passenger wouldn't naturally lead to a successful
outcome.
It is a requirement that a penalty fare notice is completed in accordance with all parts of Regulation
5(2) and on this occasion it has been concluded that this notice is not wholly compliant with that
Regulation. That being the case, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (which govern travel on the entire
rail network) will be applied.
To guarantee paying the cheapest fare for a journey, passengers should aim to buy a valid ticket in
advance of travel (where the facility to do so has been provided by the train company). If travelling from a
station at which there are no ticket purchasing facilities provided, or where the facilities are out of service,
rail users should not be penalised and should always be offered the cheapest fare for their journey.
You were travelling on a South Western train with a Southern Train ticket, with the ticket you held it is valid
on Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) a train operating company that operates the Thameslink, Southern
and Great Northern.
In this instance, I'm pleased to advise that the penalty fare charge has been cancelled but the
outstanding amount due for the journey taken under the National Rail Conditions of Travel,
£3.90 must be paid.
...
This appeal has been successful and is now considered closed, however, unless there has already been a
payment towards the penalty fare notice that covers this outstanding amount for the journey you made is
still liable for payment.
The train operating company has been informed to remove the penalty aspect of this debt leaving only the
liability of the journey you made due under the NRCoT.
If you have not already made a payment towards the penalty fare notice, in order to avoid administration
fees being added by the train operating company or their debt recovery agents, you should pay the
outstanding amount within 14 days from the date of this response.
HOW TO PAY
You can pay in any of the following ways:
 By credit or debit card at www.southwesternrailway.com/paymynotice
 By telephone on 0844 544 8191. This number is available 24 hours. Calls cost 5p per minute plus
your network access charge. Call charges from a mobile may vary.
 By post, sending a postal order made payable to: First MTR South Western Trains Limited and sent
to: Freepost SWR PROSECUTIONS DEPARTMENT.
The status of your appeal outcome has been passed to the SWR Prosecutions Team. If you have made a
payment against the Penalty Fare, a refund may be due. Where a refund is due, SWR will issue a refund to
the passenger who received the Penalty Fare within 10 working days.
Thank you for using Penalty Services
 
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Hadders

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Here's the section from NationalRail.co.uk. As I mentioned earlier there have been numberous discussions on here about the validity of these tickets, without a consensus being reached.

'London Terminal' stations​

Tickets issued for travel to/from London usually show 'London Terminals' as the destination/origin rather than naming a specific station. This is because the ticket may be valid to more than one London Terminal station provided it’s on any reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services.

For example, a ticket from Woking to London Terminals is valid to:
  • London Waterloo
  • London Victoria (via Clapham Junction)
  • London Bridge
  • London Blackfriars
  • City Thameslink
  • London Charing Cross
  • London Waterloo East
  • London Cannon Street (via London Bridge)
It would not be valid to, for example, London Euston or Paddington as this would not be on the line of route and would involve crossing London using another mode of transport, such as the London Underground or London Buses.
The exception to this is where there are National Rail journey opportunities that include a choice of London Terminal stations on the Thameslink route between London Bridge, London Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and London St Pancras. For these Thameslink journeys, the London Terminal stations that you can use with a London Terminals ticket, will be determined by whether your journey will start / finish north or south of London as follows:

thameslink_north.jpg
thameslink_south.jpg


More information on tickets issued to/from 'London Thameslink'
 

gray1404

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You have actually won your appeal and it has been successful and the penalty fare is been cancelled. They have however incorrectly calculated the fare outstanding.

I think in this case you should write back to the penalty fare scheme operator and raise a complaint.
 

Watershed

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You have brought an appeal and it has been decided without the Penalty Fare having been cancelled.

Accordingly SWR can no longer bring a prosecution. The only option open to them, if they consider that a fare remains owed, is to pursue the matter in the same way as any other alleged civil debt - through the County Court.

If I am understanding the situation correctly, you held this ticket? If so, you were perfectly entitled to exit and/or break your journey at Waterloo and there is no fare due.

If SWR and/or their agents chase this alleged debt up, you can simply tell them the above. The ball is then in their court.
 

klv

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I think in this case you should write back to the penalty fare scheme operator and raise a complaint.
Thanks, I've done this now.

What about disputing further problems with a season ticket rejected? If I'm being caught en route or when exiting the gates it's the same: I get a PCN and challenge it. But what if I'm not allowed to the platform? Make a video and file a complaint?

If I am understanding the situation correctly, you held this ticket? If so, you were perfectly entitled to exit and/or break your journey at Waterloo and there is no fare due.
It's an e-ticket bought at SouthEastern website, and I find it really hard to make sure it's an SDR indeed. I once managed to, but I didn't remember how. The remaining words are the same (including "not underground"), and so is the price.
 

AlbertBeale

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We’ve had numerous debates in the past about whether a ticket to ‘London Thameslink’ is valid to Waterloo, Charing Cross etc without a definitive answer.

The rail industry certainly doesn’t want a ticket issued to London Thameslink to be valid to Waterloo. GTR published a leaflet (which is still on the National Rail website iirc) showing the validity of London Thameslink and London Terminals tickets.

Contractually, it’s not exactly clear if the ticket is valid to Waterloo and our advice in the past has always been that you cannot expect a hassle free journey if you use such a ticket to Waterloo.

I frequently use this Brighton to Thameslink destination (with no Thameslink brand restriction) ticket to go via Waterloo and W East - because I often want to break my journey (or finish short) at Waterloo. In another thread I said that although the ticket doesn't open the gates at Waterloo I've always been let through. Since that thread I have once had a problem; the staff at the Waterloo gateline at first refused to let me out, claiming the ticket wasn't valid. I stood my ground and they eventually muttered and opened the gate.

Apart from Routing Guides and so on, a key fact regarding proof of validity is surely that you can get that type of ticket, at that price, with a "via Waterloo" route, to show up on a ticket sales website - and an itinerary trumps everything, I thought? When I first started using this ticket for this route (because I couldn't afford to pay the much higher unrestricted Brighton-London prices, and I didn't want to be tied to arriving in London at a station served by T'Link trains, which would be needed if I bought the equally cheap "use only this colour of train" ticket), I used to carry a print-out of such an itinerary with me. (Which I presume is good enough, even though I didn't buy the ticket from the website showing the itinerary, usually preferring to get my tickets at the station when setting off.)

NB - re the first bit from the post by Hadders I'm replying to ... I fully accept the ticket isn't valid to Charing X, since that isn't on a line of route from the south to Thameslink stations (has anyone claimed it is?); but going via Clapham Junction, Waterloo, Waterloo East, to London Bridge, obviously is on a line of route without doubling back. And if you can go via Waterloo, you can obviously finish short there.
 
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Watershed

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It's an e-ticket bought at SouthEastern website, and I find it really hard to make sure it's an SDR indeed. I once managed to, but I didn't remember how. The remaining words are the same (including "not underground"), and so is the price.
Perhaps you could upload a (redacted) copy of the e-ticket? It's just that there are a wide variety of different fares between Brighton and London, many of which have similar or even identical prices despite having differing validity.
 

John Palmer

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The Appeal Panel has properly discharged its sole function of determining whether the appeal against the penalty fare should be allowed or dismissed. It did so by saying that the penalty fare notice was not completed in a way that complied with the requirements of Regulation 5(2) of the penalty fares regulations, without indicating the nature of such non-compliance. Having given that as its reason for allowing the appeal, the Appeal Panel has no further part to play in the matter, and any views it may have about the validity of the ticket held by the OP, or about whether the OP should make a payment to avoid incurring administration charges or debt recovery agents' fees are irrelevant and should not have been expressed. If any operator believes that the OP still owes it money for the journey in question then it is entirely up to that operator whether to take the matter up with the OP.
 

klv

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Perhaps you could upload a (redacted) copy of the e-ticket? It's just that there are a wide variety of different fares between Brighton and London, many of which have similar or even identical prices despite having differing validity.
Well, IIRC there's only two of them £47.30: restricted to Thameslink trains and restricted to London Thameslink destination. I definitely buy the latter one.

Also, update: the railway company canceled the debt after I dropped a line to the railway company email.

Now I'm using a similar season ticket, and the gates at Waterloo East indeed don't let me out. Waterloo does let me in, however. I'll try the other way round one day.
 

swt_passenger

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Well, IIRC there's only two of them £47.30: restricted to Thameslink trains and restricted to London Thameslink destination. I definitely buy the latter one.

Also, update: the railway company canceled the debt after I dropped a line to the railway company email.

Now I'm using a similar season ticket, and the gates at Waterloo East indeed don't let me out. Waterloo does let me in, however. I'll try the other way round one day.
Tickets not operating gates at intermediate stations is a regular issue, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a fault. They aren’t clever enough to check for valid routeing ‘on the fly’ as it were.
 
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