"HS2 Back on Track" - front page of Sunday Express - private sector plan to build Birmingham to Manchester

Peter Sarf · 23 Jan 2024

Xenophon PCDGS said:
So many learned postings on railway matters caused by a front page article on a newspaper that hardly anyone has a good word to say about it normally.

I fear that for much of the media the railways are seen as quirky and best treated with disdain.

It is not helped by the complexity at the heart of the railways. So most people do not want a complex story, they just want a quick read and preferably entertaining.

RailUK Forums

Tezza1978 · 23 Jan 2024

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...S&cvid=f1ea85f1a603468989104987074c12d9&ei=12

Transport Secretary Mark Harper has said he will look at plans to revive the northern section of HS2 through private investment with "an open mind".

Transport secretary to look at HS2 revival plans with 'open mind'© Reuters
Speaking at a Conservative Home conference in central London, the minister said he and Rishi Sunak had given a "commitment" to the Tory mayor of the West Midlands, Andy Street, to examine any proposal he brought forward - after the government decided last year to scrap the leg between Birmingham and Manchester.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...9104987074c12d9&ei=12&fullscreen=true#image=2

Mr Harper confirmed that Mr Street and Labour's mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, had now commissioned a study into how it could be done through partnerships with business, following reports over the weekend.

The Express story was clearly correct then (not that I am a fan of that paper!)

Sticking point may be that this rotten govt may not want to put in sixpence of its own money, even if the private sector stumps up most of the cash. They "may" have realised that sacking off 2a - the cheapest and best bang for buck bit was stupid.
I expect the next Labour administration would think differently and at least go for this private sector plan.

Mcr Warrior · 23 Jan 2024

Peter Sarf said:
It is not helped by the complexity at the heart of the railways. So most people do not want a complex story, they just want a quick read and preferably entertaining.

Indeed. Possibly also explains why the Post Office / Fujitsu scandal initially took so long to gain traction.

The Ham · 23 Jan 2024

Mcr Warrior said:
Indeed. Possibly also explains why the Post Office / Fujitsu scandal initially took so long to gain traction.

Indeed, most people would take at face value that computers are inflatable - anyone who has an understanding that they're only at his as the people who wrote them are more likely to think that there's at least the possibility that there's a flaw and so want to understand more.

Save with the railways, many look at them and think "I drive why should I care about (or fund) public transport", when the reality is that without public transport the roads would be far more congested and a lot more buildings (read people's homes) would have to be demolished to build more roads.

Also public transport allows those unable to drive to get about without being limited to walking/cycling distance. That could well be the people who serve them in a shop, work at a hospital or many other places which the benefit from.

Arkeeos · 23 Jan 2024

Energy said:
Privately funded HS2 Euston was a big part of Rishi's announcement, surely privately funding it to near-Manchester fits in with this.

Privately funded Euston was Hunts idea, Sunak would have scrapped it. I am of the belief that Sunak is hugely antagonistic towards HS2 and does not want to deal with it at all.

Tezza1978 said:
Sticking point may be that this rotten govt may not want to put in sixpence of its own money, even if the private sector stumps up most of the cash. They "may" have realised that sacking off 2a - the cheapest and best bang for buck bit was stupid.
I expect the next Labour administration would think differently and at least go for this private sector plan.

The best thing that this announcement has done is kept HS2 in the spotlight and drawing attention to the fact that contrary to what some people believe (And what a certain opposition party *wants* you to believe), this is an entirely reversible decision.

Tezza1978 · 23 Jan 2024

Arkeeos said:
Privately funded Euston was Hunts idea, Sunak would have scrapped it. I am of the belief that Sunak is hugely antagonistic towards HS2 and does not want to deal with it at all.

The best thing that this announcement has done is kept HS2 in the spotlight and drawing attention to the fact that contrary to what some people believe (And what a certain opposition party *wants* you to believe), this is an entirely reversible decision.

I think Sunak was more "ambivalent" towards HS2 rather than truly antagonistic......until he saw the cost increases, saw the opinion polls and doubled down on "wedge" issues to appeal to Red Wall voters and his traditional support. Look what happened after they narrowly held on to Uxbridge - load of press appearances by him saying how bad ULEZ was, pictures of him stood by potholes, announcing that only he was on the side of the "motorist". I think he thought cancelling 2a and 2b would have far more popular support and he's had a bit of a shock.

Pretty pathetic really. Everyone knows their sole focuses for the election are a pre election tax cut bribe, screaming about the boats and screaming about trans people and "woke" issues - and cutting back spending on rail, local authorities, civil service is the only way he can follow his fiscal rules for the big tax cut bribe.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Jan 2024

Has there been much in the way of TV media coverage of the matter in hand on this thread?

Peter Sarf · 24 Jan 2024

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Has there been much in the way of TV media coverage of the matter in hand on this thread?

I fear not.

Railways are probably less exciting than :-

Immigration (nobody wants it but we need the cheap labour),
Job loses in the steel industry (overshadowing the job losses at Alstom Derby),
Gaza (will drag on until Israel exhaust themselves, erm pity about the dead),
Ukraine war (how long we can afford to help em through the stalemate),
US Elections (ugh, how far off ?, and not UK),
Global Warming (some in denial, some doom mongers and a lot of middle ground),
Rail Strikes (hurrah, oh wait - bad publicity),
Covid enquiry (yes, there was a pandemic),
Weather (sometimes in the headlines if a girls name is involved).

(the comments in brackets are meant to be a bit tongue in cheek to LOOSELY indicate their relative importance - don't lets drift off topic)

Nicholas Lewis · 24 Jan 2024

Rail Technology Magazine have a story today following off the back of this

Transport Secretary to keep open mind on HS2 Phase 2

Speaking at a Conservative Home conference, Harper said that the government had given a ‘commitment’ to West Midlands mayor, Andy Street that any proposal for HS2 to be privately funded would be examined by his department.

Harper’s comments come after increased speculation that a plan to privately fund the leg between Birmingham and Manchester could see Phase 2 revived. Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham recently joined forces with Street and a group of private companies, led by Arup to gauge the possibilities of using a similar route with ‘different construction methods’ being explored.

Initially, HS2 chairman Sir John Thompson told the transport committee that HS2 had been involved in discussions with the group but had been told not to divulge any information to the working group by the Government.

Rail Minister, Huw Merriman was also at the event and reiterated the government’s intentions to sell the land off and remove the building restrictions which were in place. Harper confirmed that HS2’s ringfenced land in between Handsacre Junction and Manchester was going to be lifted last week.

Umm if he was keeping an open mind why lift safeguarding (albeit legally they can't yet) but seems perhaps this is No.10 operation that was imposed on DafT.

Energy · 24 Jan 2024

Nicholas Lewis said:
Umm if he was keeping an open mind why lift safeguarding (albeit legally they can't yet) but seems perhaps this is No.10 operation that was imposed on DafT.

This seems likely, it all went quiet till the media started reporting that the sell off was unlikely.

21C101 · 24 Jan 2024

I didn't think that HS2 ending in a position whereeffectively six tracks crash into Colwich Junction and Shugborough Tunnel would last very long.

2a to Crewe I suspect will happen in fairly short order. Anything Beyond Crewe remains to be seen. Apart from anything else Piccadilly needs starting again from scratch to provide an underground through station for both HS2 and "HS3"

I suspect eventually HS2 will effectively run from London to Leeds via Manchester but whether it will be in my lifetime remains to be seen.

Remains to be seen now whether Birmingham International and Trent Junction is as dead as it seems to be.

If Sunak gets removed by his own party before the election an early U turn might be in prospect, otherwise I think Burnham will get Labour to at least do 2a to Crewe.

Bald Rick · 24 Jan 2024

Pretty unlikely that any further part of HS2 would be privately funded. Privately financed perhaps.

chris2 · 24 Jan 2024

BBC reporting the meeting will be next week. Has this quote from Street…

Speaking to the BBC at the official launch of construction at HS2's Birmingham Curzon Street station, the West Midlands mayor said the proposed alternative route would run between where HS2 ends in Handsacre, north of Birmingham, and south Stockport, where the Northern Powerhouse Rail begins.

Mr Street said options being considered were "maybe a dedicated line, maybe upgrades to the existing line". The aim would be to relieve the "very very congested" West Coast Mainline, improving connectivity and reliability.
But he said it would be unlikely to be exactly the same as HS2 as the project was so over budget.

The article goes on…

The mayors announced in December they had started a group involving private sector firms to look at options to tackle the rail route between the Midlands and the North.

The group, chaired by infrastructure expert Sir David Higgins, would look at "the cost, capacity, and economic uplift of changes to the rail route, helping to identify packages of potential interventions and potential private sector funding models and solutions," a press release at the time said.

Busaholic · 24 Jan 2024

chris2 said:
BBC reporting the meeting will be next week. Has this quote from Street…

The article goes on…

So he's proposing it'll run from somewhere that's not in Central London to somewhere that is not in Central Manchester. The world will gaze on, in admiration or contempt (think I can guess which.)

chazi898 · 24 Jan 2024

Does anyone have any concept or proposed plans for Colwich Junction? It's looking like grid lock waiting to happen, even without HS2 trains and just enhanced conventional trains in the future.

350401 · 24 Jan 2024

A lot of planning was done; it resulted in the report linked earlier on phase 2a alternatives and the conclusion that the solution to Colwich was phase 2A. Now that’s officially canned, the DFT sponsor team, together with NR and HS2 are having to look again at what can be done. The outputs from that review will take a while. If I had money to bet, I’d put money on the Crewe platform lengthening still happening, and the low cost alternative identified in the phase 2a document - basically a Colwich/Shrugborough tunnel bypass / de facto 4 tracking to make the line from Colwich to Stafford all 4 track. Plus some minor upgrades to allow the HS2 trains to run at 115/125 mph on some straight sections of track.

Energy · 25 Jan 2024

chazi898 said:
Does anyone have any concept or proposed plans for Colwich Junction? It's looking like grid lock waiting to happen, even without HS2 trains and just enhanced conventional trains in the future.

Currently, stay as it is at the moment.

350401 said:
If I had money to bet, I’d put money on the Crewe platform lengthening still happening

To be honest, I wouldn't bet on anything until the mayors and the secretary of state meet next week.

The Planner · 25 Jan 2024

350401 said:
A lot of planning was done; it resulted in the report linked earlier on phase 2a alternatives and the conclusion that the solution to Colwich was phase 2A. Now that’s officially canned, the DFT sponsor team, together with NR and HS2 are having to look again at what can be done. The outputs from that review will take a while. If I had money to bet, I’d put money on the Crewe platform lengthening still happening, and the low cost alternative identified in the phase 2a document - basically a Colwich/Shrugborough tunnel bypass / de facto 4 tracking to make the line from Colwich to Stafford all 4 track. Plus some minor upgrades to allow the HS2 trains to run at 115/125 mph on some straight sections of track.

There won't be that much money made available.

chris2 · 25 Jan 2024

chazi898 said:
Does anyone have any concept or proposed plans for Colwich Junction? It's looking like grid lock waiting to happen, even without HS2 trains and just enhanced conventional trains in the future.

@350401 This is an image of the low cost alternative as proposed in the phase 2a alternatives document (2015).

Snow1964 · 31 Jan 2024

Media is confirming meeting between mayors and minister happened today

No details have emerged, except apparently generally agreed M6 and WCML won't be able cope with Manchester-Birmingham by 2040s

Also now being said, route is Handsacre to High Leigh, Cheshire (where there will be junction with proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail). Presumably this is more accurate than the vague Stockport area initially mentioned

Mayor discusses HS2 alternative with minister

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham met with Transport Secretary Mark Harper on Wednesday.

www.standard.co.uk

The Planner · 31 Jan 2024

Snow1964 said:
Also now being said, route is Handsacre to High Leigh, Cheshire (where there will be junction with proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail). Presumably this is more accurate than the vague Stockport area initially mentioned

Mayor discusses HS2 alternative with minister

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham met with Transport Secretary Mark Harper on Wednesday.

www.standard.co.uk

So pretty much as 2B was anyway? So conveniently the proposed construction railhead at Ashley can stay, shock horror.

Snow1964 · 31 Jan 2024

Seems reconvening in Birmingham next week, per BBC

In a joint statement released after the meeting, Mr Burnham (Labour) and Mr Street (Conservative) said: "Ultimately there are capacity challenges on the West Coast Main Line between Birmingham and Manchester, and so we have decided to seek the help of the best private sector brains to look at how we might creatively resolve that without a significant bill on the public purse."

Their statement said their group would reconvene in Birmingham next week to flesh out their plans.

North West to Midlands rail plan 'not HS2' say regional mayors

Andy Burnham and Andy Street want better rail links but say plan is not rehash of high speed scheme.

www.bbc.co.uk

HSTEd · 31 Jan 2024

Snow1964 said:
Seems reconvening in Birmingham next week, per BBC

North West to Midlands rail plan 'not HS2' say regional mayors

Andy Burnham and Andy Street want better rail links but say plan is not rehash of high speed scheme.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder if they actually believe the "significant bill on the public purse" thing, or if its just marketing guff.

I assume they will try to force a PFI type deal with the cost laundered through hugely increased rail subsidies, possibly themselves laundered through Network Rail.

Peter Mugridge · 31 Jan 2024

Snow1964 said:
Media is confirming meeting between mayors and minister happened today

No details have emerged, except apparently generally agreed M6 and WCML won't be able cope with Manchester-Birmingham by 2040s

Also now being said, route is Handsacre to High Leigh, Cheshire (where there will be junction with proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail). Presumably this is more accurate than the vague Stockport area initially mentioned

Mayor discusses HS2 alternative with minister

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham met with Transport Secretary Mark Harper on Wednesday.

www.standard.co.uk

Would there still be a connection with the WCML for northbound services that bypasses the most critical bottleneck, i.e. one that joins the WCML at least north of Norton Bridge?

Peter Sarf · 31 Jan 2024

Snow1964 said:
Media is confirming meeting between mayors and minister happened today

No details have emerged, except apparently generally agreed M6 and WCML won't be able cope with Manchester-Birmingham by 2040s

Also now being said, route is Handsacre to High Leigh, Cheshire (where there will be junction with proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail). Presumably this is more accurate than the vague Stockport area initially mentioned

Mayor discusses HS2 alternative with minister

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham met with Transport Secretary Mark Harper on Wednesday.

www.standard.co.uk

I have been looking for High Leigh. The only one I get is in the Lea Valley - NE of Greater London. Google took me to High Legh (no "i") but that is near a miniature railway only. Is someone having a laugh !.

EDIT
Oh I see. It would connect with the proposed NPR rail (Liverpool to/from Manchester). Bit risky.

Just East of the M56/M6 junction.

Arkeeos · 31 Jan 2024

"Connect to Northern Powerhouse Rail"

I think people mean connects to HS2.

Xenophon PCDGS · 31 Jan 2024

Peter Sarf said:
I have been looking for High Leigh. The only one I get is in the Lea Valley - NE of Greater London. Google took me to High Legh (no "i") but that is near a miniature railway only. Is someone having a laugh !.

EDIT
Oh I see. It would connect with the proposed NPR rail (Liverpool to/from Manchester). Bit risky.

Just East of the M56/M6 junction.

The nearest settlement that I know of with an almost very similar spelling is that of High Lane, which is the extreme right-hand location of the Stockport part of Greater Manchester,

chris2 · 31 Jan 2024

Do they mean here?

Energy · 31 Jan 2024

chris2 said:
View attachment 151476 Do they mean here?

Yes, building to High Legh is HS2 2a + 2b up until the Manchester spur. I'd expect them to leave Manchester to NPR, the government committed to £12bn for Manchester - Liverpool.

Peter Sarf · 31 Jan 2024

Ah, now I get it. Everything up to just short of the Golborne link and the Manchester leg. The Golborne link is not relevant to the two Mayors of Manchester and Birmingham (or Liverpool) of course. The Manchester leg is now/currently covered by NPR. All very neat as long as NPR happens.

The cynic in me now sees that NPR is now lumbered with completing HS2 to somewhere useful. Without NPR the HS2 Phase 2a+ replacement is useless ?.

Hence the question by @Peter Mugridge.

Peter Mugridge said:
Would there still be a connection with the WCML for northbound services that bypasses the most critical bottleneck, i.e. one that joins the WCML at least north of Norton Bridge?

"HS2 Back on Track" - front page of Sunday Express - private sector plan to build Birmingham to Manchester

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