Conscription.

randyrippley · 25 Jan 2024

The reality is that if anyone were to be called up to serve, those selected would be people with existing useable skill sets which could fit into existing military units with minimal training. Examples:
Aircraft pilots and engineers (along with their aircraft)
Ship crews (especially ferry crews)
HGV drivers with licences for oversize loads.
Hazardous goods shipping clerks/authorisers (both sea and air)
Computer security specialists
Air Traffic Controllers
Professional divers
There must be many more but you get the idea

Busaholic said:
It's hardly what that military guy was talking about. I'm sure plenty of Russian families would appreciate the vast difference.

There's no "vast difference". You're conscripted into national service. Prevailing conditions determine the length of service. Whatever you call it, the training deployment and danger of dying is the same.

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Chrysalis · 25 Jan 2024

Just wanted to say, as a Swede, that I don't know anyone of my generation or younger that have been forced to enlist. From memory, I believe that conscription in Sweden "took a break" for many years, including when it would normally have been my turn. Before and after that it appears to have been/appears to be super easy to get out if it if you don't want to (I see fines mentioned on Wikipedia but I have never heard of anyone being fined!).

That aside, whilst I disapprove of conscription, I approve that we call on women too to be conscripted. If you have to do it, at least try to be equal about it, and women are perfectly capable.

azOOOOOma · 25 Jan 2024

Chrysalis said:
Just wanted to say, as a Swede, that I don't know anyone of my generation or younger that have been forced to enlist. From memory, I believe that conscription in Sweden "took a break" for many years, including when it would normally have been my turn. Before and after that it appears to have been/appears to be super easy to get out if it if you don't want to (I see fines mentioned on Wikipedia but I have never heard of anyone being fined!).

That aside, whilst I disapprove of conscription, I approve that we call on women too to be conscripted. If you have to do it, at least try to be equal about it, and women are perfectly capable.

Oh absolutely. I believe in equality so would never expect an out just because I’m a woman.

Sad Sprinter · 25 Jan 2024

I was speaking to my mum about this last night. Like the OP I am in the same age range, but I’m a young millenial rather than a Gen Z. The way I interpreted the article was that a large civilian army of volunteers at home would be needed, which is especially true. Physical air attacks conventional or low-yield nuclear on strategic locations in the British isles would require medical volunteers to assist with casualties. Officials to assist in possible evacuations, volunteers to deliver goods in case a cyber attack knocks out utilities - all kinds of new roles would be needed to be filled here at home in the event of war.

azOOOOOma · 25 Jan 2024

DarloRich said:
In what follows please do not take this as any criticism. I am trying to offer some context and background that might help you process your thoughts and find some relaxation.

Don't let it make you anxious - it isn't worth it and it isn't going to happen in peacetime . In history the UK has never had conscription. Only during WW1 and WW2 ( and for a period after) was it brought in. We have ALWAYS had a small, professional army and that wont change.

The key line from the article above is: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68086188

We DO need more soldiers, sailors and airman - but they need to be volunteers. Our armed forces DO NOT want conscription. After all: A volunteer is worth 10 pressed men as they say ( not sure who they are but they say it )

Sweden has a very different history of armed forces service. Since 1900 they have had a form of conscription. In the cold war 80% of males served at some time in the armed forces. They are a neutral nation ( historically) and had to be able to provide rugged defence of that neutrality towards all nations but especially the Soviet Union because no one was coming to help them. This conscription system fell into disuse after the cold war but restarted in small numbers in the late 2000's. They may review that with the current Russian belligerence.

Many ( perhaps most) countries in Europe have a history of compulsory national service. We do not. It is something that is felt, almost, to be un British!

Do you think the people called up in WW1/WW2 were any different, really, to you or I? They wanted a nice life, good job, a bit of money, a nice home and a nice family. They might have had different skills but i bet most weren't equipped with the skills to be a soldier.

There is nothing to worry about in regard to conscription - this all looks to me like an outgoing senior army officer highlighting how short of men the army is and how we should have more, knowing that touching on conscription would get him into the papers. The M has already denied having any intrust in conscription on the back of this!

I don’t think people were different. They had dreams and aspirations. But they also had the idea of serving the country and being a guardian toward it to protect it for the generations to come.

Every Gen Z-er I know proudly despise our country, continually ridicule it and seem to celebrate whenever there’s any bad news or negative story toward it. I also find them incredibly selfish.

They like to push the narrative of them being caring compassionate individuals but they’re incredibly selfish and care only for themselves, their ‘brand’ and how they’re perceived.

There’s also the strange parallax whereby we are accepting a large number of refugees fleeing war zones, yet there are some who are keen to push the notion of conscription whereby we’d send tens of thousands of our own people to a war zone. Quite the juxtaposition.

Sad Sprinter said:
I was speaking to my mum about this last night. Like the OP I am in the same age range, but I’m a young millenial rather than a Gen Z. The way I interpreted the article was that a large civilian army of volunteers at home would be needed, which is especially true. Physical air attacks conventional or low-yield nuclear on strategic locations in the British isles would require medical volunteers to assist with casualties. Officials to assist in possible evacuations, volunteers to deliver goods in case a cyber attack knocks out utilities - all kinds of new roles would be needed to be filled here at home in the event of war.

I could possibly see myself get behind a domestic support ‘army’. Making things, provided services and whatnot to keep the country running. I’d be dead against anyone being forced into being cannon fodder. A bit like during Covid. We had those helping the NHS. Working in test centres and a massive number of volunteers running errands for those who needed it.

birchesgreen · 25 Jan 2024

Maybe you just need to meet some better people, i work with a few Gen Zs and they are great people.

Lost property · 25 Jan 2024

For those getting paranoid about a brown envelope coming through your door, and maybe a rail warrant (just to appease the enthusiasts / spotters) inviting you to report to wherever, thereafter being given a tarpaulin, some twigs, a spade and invited to dig your bed for the night...the Army have long since viewed this as luxury accom, rather than checking in, relax....

As other have wisely pointed out, and why, conscription is a non starter. The resistance from the public overall would be politically catastrophic as would the refusal to participate.

What is far more interesting is the term "citizens army " which sounds like some spin / sales and marketing pitch.

Anyway, the biggest concern isn't the Russians....it's the unfortunate possibility of an alleged criminal across the Atlantic making a return to the White House.

ainsworth74 · 25 Jan 2024

randyrippley said:
The reality is that if anyone were to be called up to serve, those selected would be people with existing useable skill sets which could fit into existing military units with minimal training. Examples:
Aircraft pilots and engineers (along with their aircraft)
Ship crews (especially ferry crews)
HGV drivers with licences for oversize loads.
Hazardous goods shipping clerks/authorisers (both sea and air)
Computer security specialists
Air Traffic Controllers
Professional divers

I can't help but suspect quite a few of those would be reserved occupations in the, highly unlikely, event of conscription being reintroduced. We're still going to need HGV drivers, ATC, and so on to keep civilian life moving and prevent us all starving to death.

gg1 · 25 Jan 2024

Reliablebeam said:
I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of support this got in the readers comments in the Daily Heil and the Telegraph. I suspect it wasn't the response they were aiming for.

My observation is, even amongst those on the right, support for reinstating conscription came primarily from the generation who had been through it themselves, and the number of people in that category is dwindling rapidly with the youngest ex national servicemen now 84 years old.

azOOOOOma · 25 Jan 2024

Lost property said:
For those getting paranoid about a brown envelope coming through your door, and maybe a rail warrant (just to appease the enthusiasts / spotters) inviting you to report to wherever, thereafter being given a tarpaulin, some twigs, a spade and invited to dig your bed for the night...the Army have long since viewed this as luxury accom, rather than checking in, relax....

As other have wisely pointed out, and why, conscription is a non starter. The resistance from the public overall would be politically catastrophic as would the refusal to participate.

What is far more interesting is the term "citizens army " which sounds like some spin / sales and marketing pitch.

Anyway, the biggest concern isn't the Russians....it's the unfortunate possibility of an alleged criminal across the Atlantic making a return to the White House.

I mean you make a valid point. But under Biden, Russia invaded Ukraine, it has kicked off in Israel, the Houthis are running wild targeting western shipping, North Korean has gone from merely wanting reunification to describing the south as ‘mortal enemies’ and have continued missile testing and the Guyana/Venezuela dispute has escalated. I’m not a Trump fan, but I’m not sure we are in a good place right now when the ‘leader of the free world’ can barely string a sentence together…

spyinthesky · 25 Jan 2024

In a state of national emergency, recalling the reserve list would come first, i.e all those who have served who remain on this list.
I believe there would be quite a few volunteers if there was an invasion threat, however I wouldn’t have wanted to serve with conscripts during my service.

uglymonkey · 25 Jan 2024

Lots of National Service men were killed in the Korean War ( 1950's)

AlterEgo · 25 Jan 2024

adc82140 said:
There's a lot of this going round at the moment from various military big wigs. Why? Because there are elections this year, so they want to put their claim on funding with a good bit of scaremongering. And the media (particularly Sky News) are lapping it up. These are the same military men who were saying only a few months ago that Russian's capabilities had been pushed back by at least a decade after their activities in Ukraine.

There is a war going on that we are involved in directly. An information war. And it seems some British outlets may as well be on Putin's side.

Good and sensible post.

najaB · 25 Jan 2024

azOOOOOma said:
I mean you make a valid point. But under Biden, Russia invaded Ukraine, it has kicked off in Israel, the Houthis are running wild targeting western shipping, North Korean has gone from merely wanting reunification to describing the south as ‘mortal enemies’ and have continued missile testing and the Guyana/Venezuela dispute has escalated.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine started in 2014. It merely heated up in 2022. The Israel/Arab conflict started in 1948. The war in Yemen started in 2014 as well, the Korean War never ended and the Guyana/Venezuela dispute goes back to the 19th century.

azOOOOOma said:
I’m not a Trump fan, but I’m not sure we are in a good place right now when the ‘leader of the free world’ can barely string a sentence together…

I suggest that, rather than listening to commentators, you listen to the actual speeches. Here is a direct transcription of Donald Trump talking about the Iran nuclear deal:

Look, having nuclear — my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, okay, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, okay, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I'm one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you're a conservative Republican they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are (nuclear is powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what's going to happen and he was right — who would have thought?), but when you look at what's going on with the four prisoners — now it used to be three, now it’s four — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it's all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don't, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us.

I mean, I suppose that's a sentence technically.

azOOOOOma · 25 Jan 2024

Y

najaB said:
The Russian invasion of Ukraine started in 2014. It merely heated up in 2022. The Israel/Arab conflict started in 1948. The war in Yemen started in 2014 as well, the Korean War never ended and the Guyana/Venezuela dispute goes back to the 19th century.

I suggest that, rather than listening to commentators, you listen to the actual speeches. Here is a direct transcription of Donald Trump talking about the Iran nuclear deal:

I mean, I suppose that's a sentence technically.

You’re absolutely correct however there were no major escalations on the scale of which we see in recent times.

Trump cracks me up when he speaks. Usually it’s a load of nonsense. Laughable at times. However it’s sad to see a man just as Biden with his cognitive decline being forced to do a job for which he’s entirely unsuited. It’s a sorry state of affairs when the choice is Biden or Trump. Alas I don’t see a major change regardless of whoever gets in. Trump did however do quite a bit for NK, and didn’t just ignore it for two terms like Obama and his ‘strategic patience’ policy.

Interesting times ahead I’m sure.

AlterEgo · 25 Jan 2024

birchesgreen said:
Maybe you just need to meet some better people, i work with a few Gen Zs and they are great people.

I agree. Gen Z is fine. Less delinquent than millennials (my cohort) were at the same age.

najaB · 25 Jan 2024

azOOOOOma said:
You’re absolutely correct however there were no major escalations on the scale of which we see in recent times.

Thing is, that was then, this is now. It is very dangerous to see correlation as causation. A lot more has changed in the world than just the occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

azOOOOOma said:
Trump cracks me up when he speaks. Usually it’s a load of nonsense. Laughable at times. However it’s sad to see a man just as Biden with his cognitive decline being forced to do a job for which he’s entirely unsuited.

Again, how many Biden speeches have you actually listened to - from beginning to end rather - than just clips of his gaffes?

azOOOOOma · 25 Jan 2024

I’ve seen plenty of him reading from a teleprompter. Even the ‘next line’ annotations. Does that count? However when I said he struggles to string a sentence together I wasn’t referring to teleprompter speeches written by someone else. I’m talking about his troubling lack of ability to answer questions or engage in conversation. Not speeches.

Plus his intense hatred of the UK is deeply troubling for UK security.

joebassman · 25 Jan 2024

How are Russia really a threat to attacking Europe anyway?

As far as I am aware, from Russia's point of view their invasion of Ukraine has been a disaster and severely damaged their military might so I don't see any advantage for Russia attacking the rest of Europe.

To me the story smacks of more media scare mongering and social engineering. Keep the public scared so they don't wake up to the real issues that are affecting our country.

For starters the obsession with importing food and selling off of farmers land.

Its why I no longer watch the news or read newspapers.

I suggest reading the book 'Flat Earth News' by the investigatitive journalist, Nick Robinson, who has accumilated over 30 years experience working in the industry, if you wish to gain some insight into how the media really works.

For me the most helpful things have been to realise that I can't control what is happening in the world and worrying about the world isn't helping anyone including myself, appreciate that there is still a lot of beauty in the world and most people have good intentions most of the time, perhaps find some kind of therapy or self improvement method either through working with someone or if working with someone is out of your budget there are plenty of videos, podcasts, and books, maybe find something creative, spirituality can be helpful for many and many other ways.

And realise that the media are not for the benefit of the public. The media are a corporate industry and like most modern industries their primary goal is profit for their shareholders. The mainstream media no longer care about telling the truth and they know that fear and anger sells.

najaB · 25 Jan 2024

azOOOOOma said:
I’m talking about his troubling lack of ability to answer questions or engage in conversation.

The problem there is that you're naturally going to be exposed to clips which are selected to suit a particular narrative. After all, "Reporter asks a question, gets a sensible answer." isn't Twitter-worthy.

Is Joe Biden in the prime of his life? No, nobody is going to say that. Do I wish that there was a viable alternative on the Democratic side? Of course I do. But is he the doddering old codger that some like to make him out to be? No, not at all.

This is getting off-topic for conscription in the UK, but it's an unfortunate reality that, given that the US election is almost certainly going to come down to a choice between Biden and Trump, the only sensible choice - both for the USA and the world generally - is Biden.

azOOOOOma · 25 Jan 2024

najaB said:
The problem there is that you're naturally going to be exposed to clips which are selected to suit a particular narrative. After all, "Reporter asks a question, gets a sensible answer." isn't Twitter-worthy.

Is Joe Biden in the prime of his life? No, nobody is going to say that. Do I wish that there was a viable alternative on the Democratic side? Of course I do. But is he the doddering old codger that some like to make him out to be? No, not at all.

This is getting off-topic for conscription in the UK, but it's an unfortunate reality that, given that the US election is almost certainly going to come down to a choice between Biden and Trump, the only sensible choice - both for the USA and the world generally - is Biden.

We will agree to disagree. I don’t see merit to either in the White House if I’m honest. Hobson’s choice. I wouldn’t be backing either of them if I was being asked to vote. It’s a sorry state of affairs when those two are your choice.

james60059 · 25 Jan 2024

Looking at the various comments on social media and the online news outlets, it would be very difficult to enforce, not to mention I believe there's something in the ECHR about conscription exemption. One thing for certain is that the media is an absolute disgrace with their scaremongering

azOOOOOma · 25 Jan 2024

They are a disgrace. Children’s helplines in Sweden are being overwhelmed with traumatised teens who are absolutely terrified. The press really are a disgrace

AlterEgo · 25 Jan 2024

azOOOOOma said:
Plus his intense hatred of the UK is deeply troubling for UK security.

Biden does not have an "intense hatred of the UK", that is GB-News level piffle.

Islineclear3_1 · 25 Jan 2024

Scotrail12 said:
I learned during COVID not to read the mainstream news and my mental health is much better for it. Way too much scaremongering going on.

Indeed. The fear machine has just ramped up.... what can we scare the public with next?

Gloster · 25 Jan 2024

azOOOOOma said:
They are a disgrace. Children’s helplines in Sweden are being overwhelmed with traumatised teens who are absolutely terrified. The press really are a disgrace

I have lived in Sweden and, in my opinion, Swedes are more likely to get panicky and worried about things than people in many, if not most, other countries. I could suggest why, but that might offend.

Rather more seriously, I think we should be wondering if there is going to be trouble way down south. If things go badly for Milei, as things usually do go in Argentina, I can see him using the Galtieri gambit and invading the Falklands. This time we won’t be able to assemble a fleet and will be left with the choice of taking HMS Victory out of dock or the Torpoint ferry.

birchesgreen · 25 Jan 2024

Gloster said:
Rather more seriously, I think we should be wondering if there is going to be trouble way down south. If things go badly for Milei, as things usually do go in Argentina, I can see him using the Galtieri gambit and invading the Falklands. This time we won’t be able to assemble a fleet and will be left with the choice of taking HMS Victory out of dock or the Torpoint ferry.

Good grief not this nonsense again, if you think the British armed forces are depleted these days you really need to look at where the Argentine ones are.

Gloster · 25 Jan 2024

birchesgreen said:
Good grief not this nonsense again, if you think the British armed forces are depleted these days you really need to look at where the Argentine ones are.

Such little details are not going to worry the dreams and distraction manoeuvres of a pseudo-dictator. I don’t see this happening next week, but a couple of years into a four-year term he might be becoming desperate. And would our lack of response, because we have nothing to send, to ’patriotic’ posturing be seen as a green light to go further…and further…

Mogster · 25 Jan 2024

Gloster said:
I have lived in Sweden and, in my opinion, Swedes are more likely to get panicky and worried about things than people in many, if not most, other countries. I could suggest why, but that might offend.

Rather more seriously, I think we should be wondering if there is going to be trouble way down south. If things go badly for Milei, as things usually do go in Argentina, I can see him using the Galtieri gambit and invading the Falklands. This time we won’t be able to assemble a fleet and will be left with the choice of taking HMS Victory out of dock or the Torpoint ferry.

1982 we had almost nothing to stop the Argentinians walking in. Just a handful of Marines with little equipment. There was no air link with the islands so no way to rapidly reinforce.

Now we rotate a properly resourced battalion of soldiers, 4 Eurofighters are based there permanently, have air defence radar operating, have a decent airfield with an air link to the UK so we could reinforce quickly. I don’t see how much more is needed.

Junctionman · 25 Jan 2024

Islineclear3_1 said:
Indeed. The fear machine has just ramped up.... what can we scare the public with next?

i am not trying to be flippant, the media are a disgrace. i didnt know about this phrase until covid

`If it bleeds it leads`

Scaremongering ,the only thing left is an asteroid heading for us or even The Emperor Ming is on the way

Conscription.

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