Valid route advice: Watton-at-Stone to Burgess Hill via Stevenage

dembdaoc · 29 Jan 2024

Hi,

I'm just looking for some advice after being threatened by a ticket inspector yesterday on a journey I've made regularly for the last 2 years.

My journey, booked by www.nationalrail.co.uk journey planner which tells me the same route every single time;

Watton-at-Stone to Burgess Hill

It tells me to go via Stevenage and that's what it tells me every time. Also, I've just used the https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/ and it also gives me the same route.

How on earth could I possibly know that this isn't permitted?

Looking at the Rail Delivery Group site states:

"If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of
the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in
conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will
automatically be valid for the route and service indicated."

This ticket inspector was extremely unpleasant with his threats of fare dodging and was completely uninterested in anything I had to say. Although he did 'let me off this time'.

When I arrived at Stevenage I went a spoke to a guy at the ticket counter, he was a little more willing to listen to me. I showed him the journey planner after explaining what had happened. He said the route is wrong and would get people into trouble. Not very helpful.

I did notice another recent post re: Watton-at-Stone via Stevenage post that seems it's a messy situation.

How on earth should I deal with this situation in the future?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Iain

RailUK Forums

MrJeeves · 29 Jan 2024

Welcome to my local station!

Yes, this did come up the other day, too, where someone was given a penalty fare for travelling via Stevenage. Upon appeal, this was overturned, but that was done because the penalty fare wasn't filled in correctly.

You're definitely not in the wrong here, and travel with tickets alongside an itinerary from an accredited retailer should always be accepted for travel on the route detailed on the itinerary. It is actually a permitted route whether that's intended or not (probably not!).

I'm genuinely sorry that you've had this experience. Staff should know better to refer matters like this internally rather than punish passengers for things that aren't their fault.

You are more than entitled to travel via this route in the future provided you can get an itinerary that travels via Stevenage.

Watershed · 29 Jan 2024

A ticket from Watton-at-Stone (WAS) to Burgess Hill (BUG) is valid via Stevenage (SVG). Some southbound tickets from WAS aren't - but in general, ones to destinations south of London (such as BUG) are valid via SVG.

The validity via SVG is easy to demonstrate. As you say, the National Rail website can be relied upon - if it offers a through fare (i.e. doesn't show "no fares found" or say "multiple tickets required"), it is a valid route.

Equally, you are entitled to rely on any itinerary you select when buying your ticket; even if the site you were using had made a mistake, the ticket you're sold is contractually valid on the selected itinerary.

Furthermore, you could refer to the Routeing Point Calculator, which provides a simple(ish) way of determining these matters. It shows that SVG is an appropriate Routeing Point for a journey from WAS to BUG:

Therefore I'm afraid this is simply yet another case of poorly trained staff making blithe and incorrect assumptions about ticket validity. The poor customer service is inexcusable in any event; even if it were an invalid route, how can they expect you to second-guess what nationalrail.co.uk is telling you? This sort of behaviour beggars belief; I wonder how these staff would feel if they were in your shoes!

I'd make a complaint to Thameslink but realistically speaking, it is unlikely this will result in any useful response as customer service is a very low priority (if indeed it has any priority at all) to most train companies. They may even repeat the claim you are in the wrong.

I would continue travelling via SVG, as you are quite entitled to do, and if you do end up getting wrongly charged in future (or are issued with a Penalty Fare or similar) then feel free to come to us for advice on how to proceed.

LA50041 · 29 Jan 2024

dembdaoc said:
Hi,

I'm just looking for some advice after being threatened by a ticket inspector yesterday on a journey I've made regularly for the last 2 years.

My journey, booked by www.nationalrail.co.uk journey planner which tells me the same route every single time;

Watton-at-Stone to Burgess Hill

It tells me to go via Stevenage and that's what it tells me every time. Also, I've just used the https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/ and it also gives me the same route.

How on earth could I possibly know that this isn't permitted?

Looking at the Rail Delivery Group site states:

"If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of
the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in
conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will
automatically be valid for the route and service indicated."

This ticket inspector was extremely unpleasant with his threats of fare dodging and was completely uninterested in anything I had to say. Although he did 'let me off this time'.

When I arrived at Stevenage I went a spoke to a guy at the ticket counter, he was a little more willing to listen to me. I showed him the journey planner after explaining what had happened. He said the route is wrong and would get people into trouble. Not very helpful.

I did notice another recent post re: Watton-at-Stone via Stevenage post that seems it's a messy situation.

How on earth should I deal with this situation in the future?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Iain

This is a perfectly valid route according to the RDG permitted route calculator

dembdaoc · 29 Jan 2024

MrJeeves said:
Welcome to my local station!

Yes, this did come up the other day, too, where someone was given a penalty fare for travelling via Stevenage. Upon appeal, this was overturned, but that was done because the penalty fare wasn't filled in correctly.

You're definitely not in the wrong here, and travel with tickets alongside an itinerary from an accredited retailer should always be accepted for travel on the route detailed on the itinerary. It is actually a permitted route whether that's intended or not (probably not!).

I'm genuinely sorry that you've had this experience. Staff should know better to refer matters like this internally rather than punish passengers for things that aren't their fault.

You are more than entitled to travel via this route in the future provided you can get an itinerary that travels via Stevenage.

Thanks for your reply.

It's very frustrating and I'm still fuming. I think I'll just have to go via Finsbury Park and hope it's valid, who knows. I really couldn't deal this having to give my details and being officially accused of fare dodging.

dembdaoc · 29 Jan 2024

Thanks for all your replies.

It's very frustrating, even when I tried to show the inspector the journey planner on my phone he wasn't interested and that's when the more severe threats started, so I just stopped talking.

It's a shame having this on top of all the other constant disruptions to the rail system.

I'll try my luck going via Finsbury Park in the future, I really couldn't deal this having to give my details and being officially accused of fare dodging.

Thanks again, I feel very slightly calmer now after speaking with you kind people.

Sealink · 29 Jan 2024

Definitely complain to the TOC. I've had enough of arrogant ticket inspectors. Happened to me ages ago in the days of Gold Cards up Worcester way!

dembdaoc · 30 Jan 2024

So I've emailed the train company, station company & the networkrail website customer services/complaints departments. If I hear anything useful from them I post it here.

I'm still undecided whether to take that route again and risk meeting my new friend who will, in his words, take my details for prosecution. I'm just worried about the process.

Can I be removed from the train or station and unable to continue the journey? Is it a straightforward process to appeal and clear your name? I don't like the idea of them getting away with bullying innocent people. My partner makes this same journey, I'm worried for her too.

Anyway, thanks to you all again.

Hadders · 30 Jan 2024

The problem you have is that you need to pass through two barrier lines at Stevenage when you change trains. This is where you're likely to encounter trouble.

Nothing is ever easy when it comes to the railway and enforcing passenger rights. Staff are often poorly trained, and have a habit of making up their own rules.

Now this routeing has been exposed in a couple of threads on here I'd expect GTR to try and close it down by introducing a negative easement in the Routeing Guide.

infobleep · 30 Jan 2024

Hadders said:
The problem you have is that you need to pass through two barrier lines at Stevenage when you change trains. This is where you're likely to encounter trouble.

Nothing is ever easy when it comes to the railway and enforcing passenger rights. Staff are often poorly trained, and have a habit of making up their own rules.

Now this routeing has been exposed in a couple of threads on here I'd expect GTR to try and close it down by introducing a negative easement in the Routeing Guide.

Well I just looked it up on National Rail Enquiries app and if they did put in a negative easement, NRE wouldn't show any fares or it would show a combination of two fares, as all journeys are shown to go via Stevenage.

Actually there is an 22:40 service where you travel via Kings Cross. That is more expensive but that is the only one.

dembdaoc said:
Thanks for your reply.

It's very frustrating and I'm still fuming. I think I'll just have to go via Finsbury Park and hope it's valid, who knows. I really couldn't deal this having to give my details and being officially accused of fare dodging.

Could you ask them next time which route you should take and cluls they look this up for you and show you.

Be interesting to see what would happen if they tried, as I am almost always getting routes via Stevenage.

kacper · 30 Jan 2024

Great Northern Railway ticket checkers seem very uninformed on the rules around routes

sheff1 · 30 Jan 2024

dembdaoc said:
I'm still undecided whether to take that route again and risk meeting my new friend who will, in his words, take my details for prosecution. I'm just worried about the process.

Can I be removed from the train or station and unable to continue the journey? Is it a straightforward process to appeal and clear your name? I don't like the idea of them getting away with bullying innocent people. My partner makes this same journey, I'm worried for her too.

What you decide to do is clearly your choice. If it were me I would be minded tell this incompetent clown that I was taking his details and will be talking to my solicitor regarding taking legal action for attempted extortion and/or prosecution for travelling on a completely valid ticket.

Appealing any Penalty Fare should be straightforward as the ticket is clearly valid and hence any PF will have been wrongly issued. How easy it would be in practice ..... who knows.

Regarding the bullying of innocent people, you might want to consider raising the matter with your MP and/or the media.

dembdaoc · 13 Feb 2024

Hello again,

So after being in contact with the various customer services I have now had replies from nationalrail.co.uk (the first to reply) and from Govia Thameslink Railway.

nationalrail.co.uk agreed that my ticket and the route are valid from their point of view, but pointed out that they neither set route nor sell tickets. Fair enough, I didn't really expect anything else from them.

Here is (cut and paste) the last response from Govia Thameslink Railway.

Hope this helps someone.

Dear Iain

Thank you for your email, further to your recent contact with myself.

I really appreciate you getting back to me, with the information requested – this has been a massive help! I’m now able to clarify, that the ticket you had, was indeed valid for the journey you were taking. I can only apologise for the upset and inconvenience this may have caused.

I’m guessing that there’s been some sort of mix-up, as a ticket from Burgess Hill to Watton-at-Stone, is currently valid for travel via Stevenage. However, a ticket from London to Watton-at-Stone, isn't valid for travel via Stevenage.

It looks like our staff have taken the approach that every journey south of Watton-at-Stone isn't valid via Stevenage, where actually it’s not currently the case. I’ve shared your comments with the relevant manager, so this can be looked into further and we can ensure this doesn’t happen again.

Once again, I can only apologise for your recent journey experience, but I hope this offers some clarity for you going forward.

Thank you for your time.

Kind regards

HQ Customer Relations

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR)

embers25 · 13 Feb 2024

So Thameslink mean that they will look to ensure all tickets will be banned asap! As for Nationalrail, that is an interesting response given the routing guide advises passengers to use the nationalrail site to confirm routing for any ticket and so for them to wash their hands is a bit rich!

MrJeeves · 13 Feb 2024

dembdaoc said:
So after being in contact with the various customer services I have now had replies from nationalrail.co.uk (the first to reply) and from Govia Thameslink Railway.

Good response from GTR there.

Haywain · 13 Feb 2024

embers25 said:
so for them to wash their hands is a bit rich!

You are reading the response differently to me. As I read it, GTR have accepted that they were wrong, and are going to advise the (relevant) manager of revenue protection staff that tickets such as that held by the OP are in fact valid at Stevenage.

yorkie · 13 Feb 2024

Good result

Hopefully the relevant pricing manager won't attempt to worsen the current situation. It really is insane to deny travel via Stevenage from London; if the train companies really want to deny the fastest route, the way to do it is to have "Not via Stevenage" and "Any Permitted" fares.

I've even found that Hertford to places via London can be quicker via Stevenage (and indeed the forum's site will split at Watton-at-Stone in some cases, but where that's not valid, the split would be at Stevenage), and the balance from Watton-at-Stone wil tip even further towards Stevenage often being quicker.

It's a shame companies like GTR lack sufficient safeguards to resolve such matters without customers having to seek advice on this forum, but we're used to that now and it's clearly considered the norm in the rail industry; anyone who thinks they may have been mistreated by a train company should seek advice here, so that we can look into it.

embers25 · 13 Feb 2024

Haywain said:
You are reading the response differently to me. As I read it, GTR have accepted that they were wrong, and are going to advise the (relevant) manager of revenue protection staff that tickets such as that held by the OP are in fact valid at Stevenage.

The op said the below, hence my reply as technically they don't set routes but they are certainly the bible for checking them.

nationalrail.co.uk agreed that my ticket and the route are valid from their point of view, but pointed out that they neither set route nor sell tickets.

Haywain · 13 Feb 2024

embers25 said:
they are certainly the bible for checking them.

Yes, the National Rail website is definitive in terms of whether a route is valid, but it interprets the data to give those results. The routeing guide data is not managed by National Rail.

AdamWW · 13 Feb 2024

MrJeeves said:
Good response from GTR there.

I beg to differ.

It's certainly a lot better than one might expect and actually addresses one of the issues raised.

But it doesn't touch on the fact that one member of staff appeared to believe that if the National Rail web site generates an invalid itinerary then anyone using it is at fault, or the fact the other member of staff wouldn't even listen to the argument.

With a fare system like ours, it's inevitable that staff won't always get ticket restrictions right (though woe betide any passenger making an honest mistake). But shouldn't staff at least understand some simple principles like having to let passengers travel on an itinerary generated by an accredited source?

I've had a similar experience, and I find it baffling that anybody could think it reasonable for someone to be sold a ticket for a journey and it to be their fault if it's an invalid route for that ticket.

(Also - is being off route an offence? I thought one just had to pay the difference. Or is that only if there is a valid route but the ticket you hold prohibits that route?)

dembdaoc · 13 Feb 2024

yorkie said:
Good result

Hopefully the relevant pricing manager won't attempt to worsen the current situation. It really is insane to deny travel via Stevenage from London; if the train companies really want to deny the fastest route, the way to do it is to have "Not via Stevenage" and "Any Permitted" fares.

I've even found that Hertford to places via London can be quicker via Stevenage (and indeed the forum's site will split at Watton-at-Stone in some cases, but where that's not valid, the split would be at Stevenage), and the balance from Watton-at-Stone wil tip even further towards Stevenage often being quicker.

It's a shame companies like GTR lack sufficient safeguards to resolve such matters without customers having to seek advice on this forum, but we're used to that now and it's clearly considered the norm in the rail industry; anyone who thinks they may have been mistreated by a train company should seek advice here, so that we can look into it.

I must admit I was surprised I even got a response.

I've been doing that journey via Stevenage weekly for almost two years since moving to Watton-at-Stone and the only reason I've used that route is because that has always been the route that Nationalrail gave me. I would have happily gone via Finsbury Park if that's the route I was given.

I've since used the Fisbury Park route, by specifying 'avoid Stevenage'. It's slower going south unless you're lucky on the connection, coming back up is about the same. I don't find it quite so pleasant because of all the extra stopping between Watton-at-Stone and Finsbury Park and it feels a little busier.

I'm not sure if I'll use the Stevenage route again if I'm honest, even if it continues to be offered. I'm not sure how long this kind of information will take to filter down to the staff, I'm still a little anxious about bumping into my new friend and him carrying out his threat, I can only imagine the hassle of sorting that out even armed with an official response.

I'm grateful that this forum exists and allowed me to talk it out and thanks to everyone who replied.

AdamWW · 13 Feb 2024

dembdaoc said:
I must admit I was surprised I even got a response.

I've been doing that journey via Stevenage weekly for almost two years since moving to Watton-at-Stone and the only reason I've used that route is because that has always been the route that Nationalrail gave me. I would have happily gone via Finsbury Park if that's the route I was given.

I've since used the Fisbury Park route, by specifying 'avoid Stevenage'. It's slower going south unless you're lucky on the connection, coming back up is about the same. I don't find it quite so pleasant because of all the extra stopping between Watton-at-Stone and Finsbury Park and it feels a little busier.

I'm not sure if I'll use the Stevenage route again if I'm honest, even if it continues to be offered. I'm not sure how long this kind of information will take to filter down to the staff, I'm still a little anxious about bumping into my new friend and him carrying out his threat, I can only imagine the hassle of sorting that out even armed with an official response.

I'm grateful that this forum exists and allowed me to talk it out and thanks to everyone who replied.

Personally, while I prefer to avoid having arguments with staff, I would enjoy even less being forced to take a less desirable route because of something like this.

I would take a copy of the email with me though so I could show it if I had any trouble again.

And while the railway does sometimes seem keen to penalise people unjustly, I think they would have a very difficult time doing so when they've already put in writing that what you are doing is OK.

I suppose it would be good to check before each journey that they haven't quietly changed the routing rules.
But even then they might be in a difficult position given that in their email they didn't warn you about the possibility (then again they did somewhat ominously say that barring tickets via Stevenage isn't "currently" the case...)

sprunt · 13 Feb 2024

embers25 said:
As for Nationalrail, that is an interesting response given the routing guide advises passengers to use the nationalrail site to confirm routing for any ticket and so for them to wash their hands is a bit rich!

I'm not sure what else you'd want Nationalrail to do in this case. They've confirmed the route is valid, but they aren't in any position to take any further action - it wasn't their staff member who was giving incorrect information to OP.

Sultan · 13 Feb 2024

I haven't read every post on this thread in minute detail, but what is a permitted route without a change at Stevenage?

If I look for an Anytime single for tomorrow on the Railboard App, all through tickets are £39.90 and all have a change at Stevenage.

If I do the same on the Trainline it's exactly the same, all change at Stevenage, although it's only £24.10 using split ticket (split at Stevenage, of all places).

So how the ticket inspector can come to the conclusion that if you pay £15.80 more for a single through ticket than purchasing separate ones to Stevenage and another from Stevenage to Burgess Hill (although this element is an advance) it becomes an unpermitted route bemuses me.

The day returns are the same.

Are the permitted routes via Finsbury Park or Moorgate then? Ticket prices seem identical but the journey is at least 20 minutes longer.

AdamWW · 13 Feb 2024

sprunt said:
I'm not sure what else you'd want Nationalrail to do in this case. They've confirmed the route is valid, but they aren't in any position to take any further action - it wasn't their staff member who was giving incorrect information to OP.

It didn't sound as definitive as that - they were reported as saying it was valid "from their point of view" whereas if I understand correctly a passenger is entitled to take their point of view as definitive and should not be penalised for having done so.

Any corrective action should not be taken directly against a passenger relying on them.

yorkie · 13 Feb 2024

dembdaoc said:
I'm not sure if I'll use the Stevenage route again if I'm honest, even if it continues to be offered. I'm not sure how long this kind of information will take to filter down to the staff, I'm still a little anxious about bumping into my new friend and him carrying out his threat, I can only imagine the hassle of sorting that out even armed with an official response.

I'm grateful that this forum exists and allowed me to talk it out and thanks to everyone who replied.

If you buy it from either our site or any if the GTR branded sites, and travel in accordance with the itinerary offered, I would not worry about it.

If you don't want to get into an argument, just give your name and address and wait for any correspondence. Let me know and I will ensure a suitable outcome. It wouldn't be you who'd need to worry; it would be GTR.

I know one or two solicitors who'd be prepared to help if it came to it.

AlbertBeale · 13 Feb 2024

AdamWW said:
I beg to differ.

It's certainly a lot better than one might expect and actually addresses one of the issues raised.

But it doesn't touch on the fact that one member of staff appeared to believe that if the National Rail web site generates an invalid itinerary then anyone using it is at fault, or the fact the other member of staff wouldn't even listen to the argument.

With a fare system like ours, it's inevitable that staff won't always get ticket restrictions right (though woe betide any passenger making an honest mistake). But shouldn't staff at least understand some simple principles like having to let passengers travel on an itinerary generated by an accredited source?

I've had a similar experience, and I find it baffling that anybody could think it reasonable for someone to be sold a ticket for a journey and it to be their fault if it's an invalid route for that ticket.

(Also - is being off route an offence? I thought one just had to pay the difference. Or is that only if there is a valid route but the ticket you hold prohibits that route?)

I hope one of the forum's experts can clarify that last question...

yorkie · 14 Feb 2024

AlbertBeale said:
I hope one of the forum's experts can clarify that last question...

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak”
Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are
travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using

I wouldn't take this to an extreme, but in the context of a London to Watton-at-Stone journey, the difference would arguably be payable; in practice, for such a journey, you'd likely either be let off or charged a penalty fare.

MrJeeves · 16 Feb 2024

Aaaaaand, as expected...

kieron said:
701178 (Circuitous Route) Customers from Watton at Stone travelling with a Travelcard are not permitted to travel via Stevenage. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.

It can be quicker to travel between Watton at Stone and London via Stevenage rather than Hertford. This easement stops travelcards from being used that way. Another way to do this would be to change the route on the ticket to "not via Stevenage".

(Amusingly enough, not what we were quite expecting, but wonder if this issue prompted this change nonetheless. Perhaps primarily to stop people using LNER with the Travelcards?)

embers25 · 16 Feb 2024

For anyone who wonders whether pricing managers really read this forum and also for those who thought Thameslink would take a sensible approach to fixing this, here's your proof... they do read and they will block every route they don't like ASAP and by the quickest and most restrictive means possible as soon as its mentioned on here.
It's comical that a forum is still influencing national routing policy highlighting how totally messed up and unfit for purpose it is.

Valid route advice: Watton-at-Stone to Burgess Hill via Stevenage

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