'Via ...' tickets and additional permitted routes

When tickets (A-B) are routed as "via X", you are permitted to calculate permitted routes from A to X and X to B and combine them to find additional valid routes. This isn't mentioned in the routeing guide, but is done by journey planners and was confirmed by RDG (ATOC then) when they were asked previously.

See: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-guide-section-3-routeing.70716/#post-1192129

In addition to the permitted routes which involve travel via this location, permitted routes also include all permitted routes from the origin to the via point, and from via point to the destination. This was confirmed by ATOC when a customer enquired about a Sheffield to Blackburn ticket routed via Burnley.

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My question is whether, if you use this rule, do you need to consider doublebacks when merging the two routes together?

Consider a ticket from Portsmouth Stations to Ashford Intl, route Edenbridge/Polegate.

We can split the routeing for this into Portsmouth - Edenbridge Stns and Edenbridge Stns - Ashford.

Permitted route from Portsmouth to Edenbridge (r.p. Redhill) could be Portsmouth - Havant - Ford - Horsham - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport - Redhill, then local journey to Edenbridge.
Permitted route from Edenbridge to Ashford Intl. could be (LB+DE) local journey to Redhill, up to Victoria, then across and down to Ashford with Southeastern.

This would comply with the via Edenbridge routeing, but would have a double back (Redhill - Edenbridge - Redhill).

What do people think about this (in a theoretical sense)?

Edit: this was a terrible example as Edenbridge - Ashford's appropriate routeing point is actually Tonbridge of course, but the overall question still stands.

It's a good question. I think the answer is "yes".

Take a London to Edale journey. Walk up tickets are routed "via Chesterfield" and "via Manchester".

For the "via Manchester" tickets, journey planners may route you: London Euston - Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport - Edale (with EMR from Manchester to Edale, for the few EMR services that stop at Edale).

This even used to (and maybe still does) result in the last possible connection from London to Edale, with a change at Stocport only, but not travelling into Manchester, being shown as invalid by journey planners, because it does not involve a (pointless) trip from Stockport to Manchester and back again.

alistairlees said:

This even used to (and maybe still does) result in the last possible connection from London to Edale, with a change at Stocport only, but not travelling into Manchester, being shown as invalid by journey planners, because it does not involve a (pointless) trip from Stockport to Manchester and back again.

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The railway is an incredible industry...

Here are two parts to the question “do you need to consider doublebacks when merging the two routes together?”

First - is the double-back allowed?

Second - is the double-back optional?

lyndhurst25 said:

Here are two parts to the question “do you need to consider doublebacks when merging the two routes together?”

First - is the double-back allowed?

Second - is the double-back optional?

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I'd say yes and no.

MrJeeves said:

Consider a ticket from Portsmouth Stations to Ashford Intl, route Edenbridge/Polegate.

We can split the routeing for this into Portsmouth - Edenbridge Stns and Edenbridge Stns - Ashford.

Permitted route from Portsmouth to Edenbridge (r.p. Redhill) could be Portsmouth - Havant - Ford - Horsham - Three Bridges - Gatwick Airport - Redhill, then local journey to Edenbridge.
Permitted route from Edenbridge to Ashford Intl. could be (LB+DE) local journey to Redhill, up to Victoria, then across and down to Ashford with Southeastern.

This would comply with the via Edenbridge routeing, but would have a double back (Redhill - Edenbridge - Redhill).

What do people think about this (in a theoretical sense)?

Edit: this was a terrible example as Edenbridge - Ashford's appropriate routeing point is actually Tonbridge of course, but the overall question still stands.

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The shortest route from Portsmouth (Havant) to Edenbridge is actually via Guildford although Ford is a permitted route.

paul1609 said:

The shortest route from Portsmouth (Havant) to Edenbridge is actually via Guildford although Ford is a permitted route.

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I never said it was the shortest!

I was going to say the double-back is probably allowed (I’m still scratching my head over that), and if it is then yes, the double back is optional!

There must be some “+Any Permitted” tickets where the Routeing Guide lists “LONDON” as one of the the map combinations to be used, that involve a double-back near the capital. Maybe some “Via London” ones too.

I don’t think that it makes any difference if the via point X is, or is not, on a permitted route from A to B.

As in the Edale example above, it is ridiculous to force travel via Manchester, when a change at Stockport would suffice, even though the ticket is routed “Via Manchester”. Journey planners getting their knickers in a twist over that is just computers being dumb. You would be perfectly entitled to break your journey at Stockport after all. I’d say that the double-back is optional.

I think that there have been debates over this in the past. “The routes ‘London’ and ‘not London’ are not necessarily mutually exclusive” being the classic quote.

lyndhurst25 said:

You would be perfectly entitled to break your journey at Stockport after all. I’d say that the double-back is optional.

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That's a good point...

MrJeeves said:

I'd say yes and no.

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Yes and Yes are the correct answers in my view - if your ticket is not an Advance.

The original journey planner using the electronic Routeing Guide considered this as a split journey, with two journey legs. One from origin to via point, working out all the permitted routes and applying all the RG rules. And then a second journey leg taking the via point as a pseudo origin and working all the permitted routes to destination. Combining these may have resulted in double backs, but as long as all the RG rules were applied for both journey legs and internally produced two acceptable itineraries combining them to make one end to end itinerary was ok. The only critical thing was the journey itinerary had to involve travel to the VIA point. Missing it made the ticket invalid. Even if your itinerary included a double back, the theory was your ticket was only valid if you travel to the VIA point.

So Yes a double back is ok, but not an option, if that results in a journey stopping short of the VIA point. This would, in effect, make the itinerary and ticket invalid. As the journey actually undertaken excludes travel to the VIA point.

I don’t know if that is how it still works or if that was copied by subsequent products.

How customers then applied their break of journey, etc was probably not considered.

lyndhurst25 said:

As in the Edale example above, it is ridiculous to force travel via Manchester, when a change at Stockport would suffice, even though the ticket is routed “Via Manchester”. Journey planners getting their knickers in a twist over that is just computers being dumb. You would be perfectly entitled to break your journey at Stockport after all. I’d say that the double-back is optional.

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Possible problem is that whilst trains actually calling at Edale invariably always start or finish at Manchester Piccadilly, only a small handful also call at Stockport.

lyndhurst25 said:

As in the Edale example above, it is ridiculous to force travel via Manchester, when a change at Stockport would suffice, even though the ticket is routed “Via Manchester”. Journey planners getting their knickers in a twist over that is just computers being dumb.

I think that there have been debates over this in the past. “The routes ‘London’ and ‘not London’ are not necessarily mutually exclusive” being the classic quote.

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I've asked about this before with via London routeings.

My classic and real example has been a journey Basingstoke to Birmingham where I needed to break the outward journey in London, complete the journey to Birmingham then return direct to Basingstoke on CrossCountry via Reading. A whopping missed double-back of Reading- Paddington-Reading.