Article referring to passengers staging "sit ins" on cancelled trains

Jan Mayen · 3 Feb 2024

Came across this headline, but can't access the text:

Should we stage train sit-ins when services are curtailed?

Simon Calder answers questions on train sit-ins, his favourite 2023 trips and Portugal

www.independent.co.uk

Q Is it time for train passengers to stage sit-ins on “curtailed” services? Maybe this would force rail firms to restaff a train so it can continue to its original destination.

As I write on Saturday afternoon, dozens of trains have been “curtailed” – half-cancelled, if you like...

The bit I can see is a headline saying 'Should we stage sit ins when trains are curtailed?'. Its an article in The Independent by Simon Calder.

Assuming this ever did it happen, it strikes me it'll probably make a bad situation worse.

RailUK Forums

Merseysider · 3 Feb 2024

It’s behind a paywall - is anyone able to quote the article?

class 9 · 3 Feb 2024

Sit ins? They could sit as long as they wanted if there was no crew to take a train forward, odds on they'd end up back where they came from!!!

dk1 · 3 Feb 2024

class 9 said:
Sit ins? They could sit as long as they wanted if there was no crew to take a train forward, odds on they'd end up back where they came from!!!

If they sat in on my train I’d be out of my seat & they’d be going nowhere fast

Horizon22 · 3 Feb 2024

Not sure what it would achieve. If a train has been terminated short it is generally because of one of these reasons:
a) there is no crew to take it forward,
b) the line ahead is blocked and the infrastructure is not available (trees / animals / fatality / OLE down etc.),
c) the train is running significantly late and in an attempt to get back to right time working.

Doing a "sit in" would do nothing to solve a) or b) as those are just the fundamentals of the situation. It might work for c) but overall this seems like it would just cause conflict situations for the poor teams on the ground at the relevant station who can't exactly do anything about it either other than try to muster whatever taxis they can locally (alongside a formal provision/request from the control team). It might also make the disruption worse because you'd be blocking available platforms for other services in the area.

185 · 3 Feb 2024

A sit in would generally result in said passengers being taken back to their journeys origin.

Airline passenger mentality wouldn't quite work on our railway, plus would be in breach of a (prosecutable) bylaw.

rg177 · 3 Feb 2024

I've had a similar(ish) situation on gatelines whereby there's no service running but passengers insist on going through gates or even jumping over when I'd set all gates to exit only to prevent entry.

It only ever garnered the same result. They get fed up waiting for a non-existent train and come back to have a rant.

Taunton · 3 Feb 2024

I recall such a sit-in described from long ago, on the Northern Line, when an Edgware train was turned short at Golders Green. Of course, the story afterwards from (it was probably London Transport then) was that there was a train to Edgware right behind. What they missed out was that the passengers were only too familiar with this happening, yet again, that the train behind was the first from the City branch to Edgware for 20 minutes or more, and it was already packed out and they would be unable to get in ...

I am sometimes reminded of this on the Jubilee nowadays when there is a sudden announcement of a short turn at North Greenwich, and passengers should change at Canary Wharf for the train "right behind". Omitting that the well-trained passengers in the evening peak at Canary Wharf form well-disciplined queues at each door, which you will need to join the rear of, getting maybe the third ongoing service at times of disruption ...

172007 · 3 Feb 2024

Has been done at Ledbury I believe, over a decade ago. @newtownmgr would be able to advise I suspect.

LittleRedTrain · 3 Feb 2024

I vaguely recall reading that it happened at Farnham in the distant past, when an Alton train was turned short there with a long wait for the next one.
EDIT: Found a link, it was in 2001

Passengers force SWT to go all the way

PASSENGERS on an Alton-bound train staged a sit-in at Farnham station last Friday when the service was yet again terminated short of destination.

www.farnhamherald.com

yorkie · 3 Feb 2024

172007 said:
Has been done at Ledbury I believe, over a decade ago. @newtownmgr would be able to advise I suspect.

If this is the one, it was actually successful, but - crucially - it appears to have had the backing of the on-board staff, who disagreed with Control's decision:

Passenger sit-in forces train to go on

Commuters held a sit-in on a train terminated early at Great Malvern on Monday evening, until it carried on to Hereford as advertised.

www.worcesternews.co.uk

Commuters held a sit-in on a train terminated early at Great Malvern on Monday evening, until it carried on to Hereford as advertised.

"The guard went back to the controller with the message that we were staying put, come hell or high water.

"He came back with an announcement that, due to 'passenger power', the train would now go on to Hereford."

LittleRedTrain said:
I vaguely recall reading that it happened at Farnham in the distant past, when an Alton train was turned short there with a long wait for the next one.

Again, this appears to have been successful. It's unclear from the article whether - as with the other incident - the on-board staff played a part in convincing Control to change their minds.

Passengers force SWT to go all the way

PASSENGERS on an Alton-bound train staged a sit-in at Farnham station last Friday when the service was yet again terminated short of destination.

www.farnhamherald.com

PASSENGERS on an Alton-bound train staged a sit-in at Farnham station last Friday when the service was yet again terminated short of destination.

"There were around two dozen people on the train and one gentleman in particular put his foot down, refusing to get off," said Mr Mackeggie.

Egged on by his example the rest sat tight and waited for the outcome of frantic telephone conversations between station staff and SWT. Expecting to be turfed off by the police, they were stunned when 20 minutes later the train continued on its way to Alton with the same guard and driver.

In both cases, it only appears to have worked because the on-board staff were willing & able to continue the service and the only reason the trains were initially cancelled were decisions by Control to recover the service heading in the opposite directions.

Sometimes turning a train short, to recover the service, is absolutely the right thing to do. Sometimes perhaps it isn't. Each individual case would have to be judged on its own mertis, I think. I am sure Control do their best to take all factors into account and in some cases there isn't going to be a decision that would make everyone happy!

Horizon22 · 3 Feb 2024

yorkie said:
If this is the one, it was actually successful, but - crucially - it appears to have had the backing of the on-board staff, who disagreed with Control's decision:

Passenger sit-in forces train to go on

Commuters held a sit-in on a train terminated early at Great Malvern on Monday evening, until it carried on to Hereford as advertised.

www.worcesternews.co.uk

Again, this appears to have been successful.

Passengers force SWT to go all the way

PASSENGERS on an Alton-bound train staged a sit-in at Farnham station last Friday when the service was yet again terminated short of destination.

www.farnhamherald.com

The only time I can see this being beneficial is "last train of the night" type scenarios; they should always run to destination and be sacronsanct (unless it really is impossible to move the train there), but some TOCs seem to be disregarding this.

norbitonflyer · 3 Feb 2024

Not a stopping short, but a diversion. (The Undergrojnd) Passengers obstructed the doors until the junction signals were reset for the train's original destination.

A similar situation I recall at turnham Green, where the driver insisted that the signals be re-set for Richmond as that is where everybody on board was going - the indicators at all previous stations having told them so (and, equally relevant, deterred passengers at those stations who had wanted to go to Ealing from boarding it). I could hear the driver's side of the argument from the other side of the cab bulkhead. He eventually won the argument

etr221 · 3 Feb 2024

The Simon Calder article is at https://archive.is/MRyjN .

This happened a good few years ago in Italy when a strike began - a train was terminated wherever, the passengers were told to get off, and just didn't - eventually the train proceeded, dead slow (not sure what the signalling position was) to journey's end...

james_the_xv · 3 Feb 2024

I almost witnessed this once. In disruption a Birmingham bound train was curtailed at Northampton to form a Euston train as there was disruption on the Cov corridor and nothing was moving in either direction (so no point sending the train forward). A bloke decided to refuse to alight the train demanding the train was taken forward towards Brum and tried to get us other passengers involved. No one else was having it, and he was told by a member of staff that he was welcome to stay on the train if he paid the fare to Euston

.

Whilst I understand the frustration, no one wins when passengers try and take the railway into their own hands. Things generally happen for a good reason (however illogical they may seem in the moment).

LowLevel · 3 Feb 2024

yorkie said:
If this is the one, it was actually successful, but - crucially - it appears to have had the backing of the on-board staff, who disagreed with Control's decision:

Passenger sit-in forces train to go on

Commuters held a sit-in on a train terminated early at Great Malvern on Monday evening, until it carried on to Hereford as advertised.

www.worcesternews.co.uk

Again, this appears to have been successful. It's unclear from the article whether - as with the other incident - the on-board staff played a part in convincing Control to change their minds.

Passengers force SWT to go all the way

PASSENGERS on an Alton-bound train staged a sit-in at Farnham station last Friday when the service was yet again terminated short of destination.

www.farnhamherald.com

In both cases, it only appears to have worked because the on-board staff were willing & able to continue the service and the only reason the trains were initially cancelled were decisions by Control to recover the service heading in the opposite directions.

Sometimes turning a train short, to recover the service, is absolutely the right thing to do. Sometimes perhaps it isn't. Each individual case would have to be judged on its own mertis, I think. I am sure Control do their best to take all factors into account and in some cases there isn't going to be a decision that would make everyone happy!

I've certainly been there, offered my opinion and had my train "uncancelled" as a result.

I've also had the opposite where owing to significant disruption a train would normally be cancelled short due to very late running and control have asked me to keep going because of the particular circumstances - usually leaving people somewhere like Boston instead of Skegness late at night or in bad weather.

Annoying lots of our jobs prone to that are long ones but I'm not generally one for booting off the punters to benefit myself.

Horizon22 · 3 Feb 2024

LowLevel said:
I've certainly been there, offered my opinion and had my train "uncancelled" as a result.

I've also had the opposite where owing to significant disruption a train would normally be cancelled short due to very late running and control have asked me to keep going because of the particular circumstances - usually leaving people somewhere like Boston instead of Skegness late at night or in bad weather.

Annoying lots of our jobs prone to that are long ones but I'm not generally one for booting off the punters to benefit myself.

Insight from the ground can often be invaluable, especially in significant incidents where the granular detail can be missed due to the amount of tasks required to be done.

Bertie the bus · 3 Feb 2024

Sit ins can work. Back in SWT days they had a habit of skipping stops on an evening peak service from Bournemouth to London if it was a bit late so its return journey from London, well after the peak period had finished, could run almost to time. On one occasion some of us commuters for stations between Bournemouth and Brockenhurst refused to get off and as if by magic all the missing stops were reinstated.

satisnek · 5 Feb 2024

I'm reminded of the instances (and I've experienced one or two!) when a train is cancelled because there is no guard available but the driver and stock continue to the destination because that's where they/it need to go. But I can't see a sit-in being successful because rules are rules...

bunnahabhain · 5 Feb 2024

I suppose it depends upon the circumstance, I recall this happening at Ledbury and the train eventually carried on to Hereford. If the train has to be empty to proceed then it's more likely to cause an issue, whereas if I can take passengers with me then unless they obstruct the doors they're coming along for the ride.

mcmad · 5 Feb 2024

For the sake of accuracy, having now read the article thanks to the link provided by etr221 above, I should note that Simon Calder isn't suggesting sit in. The article is answering readers questions and in his response he make similar points to those on this thread as to why its not a good reason. Just another clickbait headline.

AlterEgo · 5 Feb 2024

185 said:
Airline passenger mentality wouldn't quite work on our railway, plus would be in breach of a (prosecutable) bylaw.

Good luck prosecuting 200 people at once!

jimjim · 5 Feb 2024

bunnahabhain said:
I suppose it depends upon the circumstance, I recall this happening at Ledbury and the train eventually carried on to Hereford. If the train has to be empty to proceed then it's more likely to cause an issue, whereas if I can take passengers with me then unless they obstruct the doors they're coming along for the ride.

Years ago (thinking end of Central beginning of LM) this led to trains being cancelled at Worcester rather than Ledbury and passengers for the stations towards Hereford having a longer wait due to the risk of the job stopping at Ledbury. Not sure what happens now to be honest.

noddingdonkey · 5 Feb 2024

yorkie said:
If this is the one, it was actually successful, but - crucially - it appears to have had the backing of the on-board staff, who disagreed with Control's decision:

Passenger sit-in forces train to go on

Commuters held a sit-in on a train terminated early at Great Malvern on Monday evening, until it carried on to Hereford as advertised.

www.worcesternews.co.uk

Again, this appears to have been successful. It's unclear from the article whether - as with the other incident - the on-board staff played a part in convincing Control to change their minds.

Passengers force SWT to go all the way

PASSENGERS on an Alton-bound train staged a sit-in at Farnham station last Friday when the service was yet again terminated short of destination.

www.farnhamherald.com

In both cases, it only appears to have worked because the on-board staff were willing & able to continue the service and the only reason the trains were initially cancelled were decisions by Control to recover the service heading in the opposite directions.

Sometimes turning a train short, to recover the service, is absolutely the right thing to do. Sometimes perhaps it isn't. Each individual case would have to be judged on its own mertis, I think. I am sure Control do their best to take all factors into account and in some cases there isn't going to be a decision that would make everyone happy!

I wonder if there is an element of these reinstatements being a result of concern that the situation might escalate into an assault on staff scenario?

JJmoogle · 6 Feb 2024

noddingdonkey said:
I wonder if there is an element of these reinstatements being a result of concern that the situation might escalate into an assault on staff scenario?

The first one also involves turfing kids out into a cold and dark station with no staff, I can't imagine many rail workers(or passangers) being at all happy with leaving youths at risk in such a vulnerable situation.

mchunt · 6 Feb 2024

A group of 30+ of us did it at Exeter at around 1am in early 90's when they curtailed our extremely late running Plymouth service. Weather was cold, windy & wet so nobody fancied a long wait on the platform.

It worked as they found a DMU and driver from somewhere to take us to Plymouth. I don't expect it would work nowadays.

skyhigh · 7 Feb 2024

If a train was being terminated short due to no staff available to take it forward, then all a sit in would do (if successful) is steal crew from another service meaning the cancellation is transferred somewhere else.

Garulon · 8 Feb 2024

skyhigh said:
If a train was being terminated short due to no staff available to take it forward, then all a sit in would do (if successful) is steal crew from another service meaning the cancellation is transferred somewhere else.

I'm not sure this matters or indeed should matter to the passengers wanting to go to the destination they paid to go to

skyhigh · 8 Feb 2024

Garulon said:
I'm not sure this matters or indeed should matter to the passengers wanting to go to the destination they paid to go to

It's a bit selfish though, isn't it?

Trains aren't just cancelled for the fun of it. At my place the controllers will try to make things better by swapping crew about, asking people to stay on etc but if there simply isn't the staff required then they will look to minimise the impact of disruption by cancelling trains with a lower impact - i.e. if a few in a row have been cancelled, there's a big gap or similar they will prioritise that service over another which runs every 15 mins.

If the crew is stolen from a 'higher priority' service due to a sit-in then all you've done is cause other paying passengers greater disruption.

43066 · 8 Feb 2024

skyhigh said:
If a train was being terminated short due to no staff available to take it forward, then all a sit in would do (if successful) is steal crew from another service meaning the cancellation is transferred somewhere else.

A lot of crew would also point blank refuse to work a train with passengers aboard who were refusing to follow the instructions of staff. There’s always the fear of what might happen if things kick off in the middle of nowhere so, if in doubt, it’s best to remained platformed!

Sit-ins are a silly suggestion for all sorts of reasons and, to be fair, the question and answer article in the OP does make that point.

Article referring to passengers staging "sit ins" on cancelled trains

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