“Anti-social behaviour”

Fermiboson · 5 Feb 2024

This forum is primarily British, and as such the term “anti-social behaviour” is commonly used and well understood to mean “things that are possibly against the law and annoying, as opposed to dangerous”. Of course, the term is also widely used in government publications, election campaigns, notices and posters on private property, etc. etc.

I suspect many Brits growing up in Britain may not even have thought twice about the term. However, I was not born in Britain. Prior to living in the UK, I have had two exposures to the term “anti-social behaviour”:

1. A characterisation of those with learning disorders such as autism and ADHD, as a justification for disciplining them in harsh ways
2. An umbrella classification of those interned in Nazi concentration camps under the “inverted pink triangle” mark, including homosexuals (and some Roma people, as I understand it).

So I was quite surprised to see the term being used so freely and casually in the UK for a generally non-malicious purpose, and I must confess I am still highly uncomfortable with the use of the term. As far as I can tell, the UK is unique in its use of the term and nowhere else in the Anglosphere, or even in Europe, really uses it (and/or translated equivalent) to mean “being loud and obnoxious on the train”.

Any thoughts on why the term is so widely used in the UK, its appropiateness and history?

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brad465 · 5 Feb 2024

Fermiboson said:
Any thoughts on why the term is so widely used in the UK, its appropriateness and history?

This will almost certainly be down to the official "Anti-Social Behaviour order", commonly called ASBO, that is issued against someone/a group found to have engaged in such behaviour, with the order imposing restrictions on their life (such as banning them from places where they were found to have engaged in this way) for a set period of time. While this was reformed in 2014 to what I believe is now a Criminal Behaviour order, ultimately what one's mind is introduced to is what sticks long after a rebranding has occurred (not just in this context, but common business rebranding sees similar).

Back in 2013-14 there was this kid who bullied/annoyed myself and several others (I found out about the others later on) when walking around parts of my hometown of Crayford, until he "disappeared" in early 2014. I then got a leaflet through my door in July 2014 that he was subject to a 2 year ASBO that banned him from using a particular footpath, off licence, walking within 2m of the properties of the housing estate he was living on, and from contacting x individual that I assume was a close friend/associate he caused trouble with. I haven't seem him again since, even long after the ASBO expired, suggesting he may have been relocated as well (which would make sense as some parts of that order would have been impossible to follow had he stayed living where he was at the time).

Ediswan · 5 Feb 2024

brad465 said:
This will almost certainly be down to the official "Anti-Social Behaviour order", commonly called ASBO, that is issued against someone/a group found to have engaged in such behaviour

The term 'anti-social behaviour' was in common use long before ASBOs were invented.

Fermiboson · 5 Feb 2024

brad465 said:
This will almost certainly be down to the official "Anti-Social Behaviour order", commonly called ASBO, that is issued against someone/a group found to have engaged in such behaviour, with the order imposing restrictions on their life (such as banning them from places where they were found to have engaged in this way) for a set period of time. While this was reformed in 2014 to what I believe is now a Criminal Behaviour order, ultimately what one's mind is introduced to is what sticks long after a rebranding has occurred (not just in this context, but common business rebranding sees similar).

Back in 2013-14 there was this kid who bullied/annoyed myself and several others (I found out about the others later on) when walking around parts of my hometown of Crayford, until he "disappeared" in early 2014. I then got a leaflet through my door in July 2014 that he was subject to a 2 year ASBO that banned him from using a particular footpath, off licence, walking within 2m of the properties of the housing estate he was living on, and from contacting x individual that I assume was a close friend/associate he caused trouble with. I haven't seem him again since, even long after the ASBO expired, suggesting he may have been relocated as well (which would make sense as some parts of that order would have been impossible to follow had he stayed living where he was at the time).

The ASBO was introduced in the 1990s. What is the history of the term before that point and how does that compare with other countries?

Reading the wiki page on the ASBO, I also see that it contains some apparently questionable provisions (such as “begging” or “suicidal behaviour” being punishable behaviour) with some local authorities publishing the identities of those given ASBOs, which would almost certainly be classed as harassment if not done by the local authority given the lack of a criminal conviction and the minor status of many recipients. It did also attract considerable controversy; why then is anti-social behaviour as a general term so uncontroversial by comparison?

Gloster · 5 Feb 2024

The word has been around since the eighteenth century and was by no means uncommon when I was a teen in the seventies. It may have been used by some in the sense used in 1, but for most it was a general word description for anyone whose behaviour was, at a low level, contrary to the normally accepted standards of considerate and social behaviour. ASBOs may have moved it up to the level of being the standard word.

Fermiboson · 5 Feb 2024

Gloster said:
The word has been around since the eighteenth century and was by no means uncommon when I was a teen in the seventies. It may have been used by some in the sense used in 1, but for most it was a general word description for anyone whose behaviour was, at a low level, contrary to the normally accepted standards of considerate and social behaviour. ASBOs may have moved it up to the level of being the standard word.

Indeed, but “contrary to the normally accepted standards of considerate and social behaviour” would have been women refusing to marry in the 1870s and homosexuality in the 1920s. Such terms did see some usage in the US and Europe (for example, the German word Asozialitaet, whose Wikipedia article talks about its use in Britain alongside its use in Nazi Germany and the DDR), but the term is largely retired and seen as outdated/bigoted in much of Europe and the US, while it does not seem to be the case in the UK, for no apparent good reason (the ASBO, I expect, being classed as a bad reason).

Gloster · 5 Feb 2024

Fermiboson said:
Indeed, but “contrary to the normally accepted standards of considerate and social behaviour” would have been women refusing to marry in the 1870s and homosexuality in the 1920s. Such terms did see some usage in the US and Europe (for example, the German word Asozialitaet, whose Wikipedia article talks about its use in Britain alongside its use in Nazi Germany and the DDR), but the term is largely retired and seen as outdated/bigoted in much of Europe and the US, while it does not seem to be the case in the UK, for no apparent good reason (the ASBO, I expect, being classed as a bad reason).

I used the words ‘considerate and social behaviour’ in the sense of your actions and behaviour towards others, not in the sense of conforming to the social and attitudinal norms enforced by society. Anti-social people are actively disrupting the lives of others, while people who live a lifestyle that you dislike, but who do not affect you in any way, are a completely different manner.

As far as your second (original) point is concerned, I don’t think that the details of Naziism were much taught in my day. I never got anywhere near it and it just wasn’t talked about: we knew that Naziism was evil, but the details passed us by. The strongest impression that got to me was that one my teachers who would make very clear if anybody made an even mildly admiring comments of wartime Germany, even of the, “They had some amazing tanks,” type, how much he detested the system. He was one of the more easy-going masters, but I heard later that he had been one of RAMC men sent to Belsen. But even he never went into detail. So the terms used by the Nazis to describe those that they disliked were not really commonly known; plenty of people did not, and I expect still do not, realise that the Holocaust extending to groups other than the Jews.

As far as asocial is concerned, my (somewhat radical) feeling is this is nowadays related to our ‘nation of shopkeepers’ attitude. We are all expected to keep the wheels of commerce going round by going out and socialising and spending money. Anyone who does not must be denigrated in order to shame them into spending money to the gain of those who will start the denigration. The idea of someone who quietly enjoys their own company and does not add to the wealth of corporations is anathema to many of said corporations.

Shaw S Hunter · 5 Feb 2024

Fermiboson said:
Any thoughts on why the term is so widely used in the UK, its appropiateness and history?

I would suggest you may be asking the wrong question. I think the issue here is around how the term "anti-social" is translated into other languages. My suspicion is that the translation ends up meaning something closer to what in English would be called subversive. In English the inclusion of the word "social" in the term is clearly describing situations where any negative consequences are felt by no more than a few dozen people. The translations appear to suggest a possible harm to the whole of society. These are significantly different, hence your concern.

Gloster · 5 Feb 2024

Shaw S Hunter said:
I would suggest you may be asking the wrong question. I think the issue here is around how the term "anti-social" is translated into other languages. My suspicion is that the translation ends up meaning something closer to what in English would be called subversive. In English the inclusion of the word "social" in the term is clearly describing situations where any negative consequences are felt by no more than a few dozen people. The translations appear to suggest a possible harm to the whole of society. These are significantly different, hence your concern.

Very much what I was thinking while eating my dinner, although it is something that we British are particularly prone to (expecting words to have a familiar meaning, although we do eat dinner). If a word in a foreign language looks like one in English, we expect it to mean roughly the same: think of the word gift, which in English is a present, while in German it means poison. Or rolig, which means lively and enjoyable in Swedish, but calm and peaceful in Danish.

Busaholic · 5 Feb 2024

Growing up in the 1950s and 1960s I remember the term used to be applied, often by themselves, to people who didn't subscribe to extrovert behaviour in their lives. I would say this was a result of how the Second World War had wrought huge changes in U.K. society and led to the creation of the NHS etc, the nationalisation of many industries in the public interest, supported by all those who voted Labour in 1945 and 1950 which brought two Atlee governments. The 'spiv' was a guy who undermined the prevailing rationing system, for instance, and was universally disliked and considered 'anti-social', if not criminal, by most other than those who'd gained a material advantage through him!

On the other hand my father might have been described as anti-social for completely different reasons, in that he hated most social occasions, believed a telephone 'conversation' should never exceed one minute, etc etc. He had nothing in common with the 'spiv', working for the Bank of England and continuing in the Territorial Army for years after his Desert Rat war experience.

Later on, after ASBOs came in and, some may say, failed to stem some of the problems they were meant to solve, came the era of Community Support Officers and indeterminate prison sentences introduced by Labour's Home Secretary Davis Blunkett, again to mixed reaction.

Fermiboson · 5 Feb 2024

Shaw S Hunter said:
I would suggest you may be asking the wrong question. I think the issue here is around how the term "anti-social" is translated into other languages. My suspicion is that the translation ends up meaning something closer to what in English would be called subversive. In English the inclusion of the word "social" in the term is clearly describing situations where any negative consequences are felt by no more than a few dozen people. The translations appear to suggest a possible harm to the whole of society. These are significantly different, hence your concern.

That is an interesting point. Different cultures seem to make differing distinctions between personal social harm, to put it that way, and wider social harm; I'm not sure for example that the Americans would agree with your interpretation of the word "social". I'm also not sure if ASBOs subscribe to that distinction either.

A friend working in politics recently explained to me that the term was widely used in election campaigns because middle-class voters in suburban, well-off constituencies loved hearing about eradicating ASB, which does sound a it like a "get off of my lawn" reaction to me personally. I would question more about the utility of having such a poorly defined umbrella term at all, given that the issues and actions constituting ASB comprise of a wide, diverse range of offences with differing root causes.

Gloster · 5 Feb 2024

Busaholic said:
On the other hand my father might have been described as anti-social for completely different reasons, in that he hated most social occasions, believed a telephone 'conversation' should never exceed one minute, etc etc. He had nothing in common with the 'spiv', working for the Bank of England and continuing in the Territorial Army for years after his Desert Rat war experience.

He may have been asocial, which in its true meaning means not social. It just means that you take no pleasure in doing things or being with groups of people and much prefer solitary pursuits or those carried out with a small number of selected, and probably similarly-minded, friends. You don’t do anything negative or get involved with others and are quite happy on your own. Unfortunately, asocial and anti-social get confused nowadays, partly because your pleasures are not making money for someone and so you should be denigrated, and partly because people get the words mixed up and think they are the same thing. As they know what anti-social people are and how they annoy them, they think that people who get called a similar name are similarly annoying, even though they don’t see asocial people so much as they keep themselves to themselves. We do.

It is Attlee.

Busaholic · 5 Feb 2024

Gloster said:
It is Attlee.

I know, thought I'd written that! A boy at school had the same name (no relation) but was rather cruelly deliberately referred to as Bevan by a teacher, and the name stuck. I shan't tell you how my own name was bowdlerised. Teachers could behave as they wished with no comeback in those days.

Gloster said:
He may have been asocial, which in its true meaning means not social. It just means that you take no pleasure in doing things or being with groups of people and much prefer solitary pursuits or those carried out with a small number of selected, and probably similarly-minded, friends. You don’t do anything negative or get involved with others and are quite happy on your own. Unfortunately, asocial and anti-social get confused nowadays, partly because your pleasures are not making money for someone and so you should be denigrated, and partly because people get the words mixed up and think they are the same thing. As they know what anti-social people are and how they annoy them, they think that people who get called a similar name are similarly annoying, even though they don’t see asocial people so much as they keep themselves to themselves. We

I have to confess asocial is not a term I've come across before, even though I studied for a degree in Social Administration with a large dollop of sociology thrown in, but things have changed since 1984-7. Then I did a bit of googling which basically led me to a dozen American websites regurgitating identical stuff, mostly from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Further investigation was not possible in the Oxford English Dictionary without a subscription, but the lesser Cambridge English Dictionary has it as being an American term: other British websites show the words anti-social and asocial as being interchangeable in certain contexts, but I stand by the definitions I gave as to the meaning at the time I was growing up.

THC · 5 Feb 2024

Fermiboson said:
This forum is primarily British, and as such the term “anti-social behaviour” is commonly used and well understood to mean “things that are possibly against the law and annoying, as opposed to dangerous”. Of course, the term is also widely used in government publications, election campaigns, notices and posters on private property, etc. etc.

I suspect many Brits growing up in Britain may not even have thought twice about the term. However, I was not born in Britain. Prior to living in the UK, I have had two exposures to the term “anti-social behaviour”:

1. A characterisation of those with learning disorders such as autism and ADHD, as a justification for disciplining them in harsh ways
2. An umbrella classification of those interned in Nazi concentration camps under the “inverted pink triangle” mark, including homosexuals (and some Roma people, as I understand it).

So I was quite surprised to see the term being used so freely and casually in the UK for a generally non-malicious purpose, and I must confess I am still highly uncomfortable with the use of the term. As far as I can tell, the UK is unique in its use of the term and nowhere else in the Anglosphere, or even in Europe, really uses it (and/or translated equivalent) to mean “being loud and obnoxious on the train”.

Any thoughts on why the term is so widely used in the UK, its appropiateness and history?

Antisocial behaviour is clearly defined in English law as "behaviour by a person which causes, or is likely to cause, harassment, alarm or distress to persons not of the same household as the person" (Antisocial Behaviour Act 2003 and Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011).

There are three main categories for antisocial behaviour, depending on how many people are affected:

- Personal antisocial behaviour: when a person targets a specific individual or group.
- Nuisance antisocial behaviour: when a person causes trouble, annoyance or suffering to a community.
- Environmental antisocial behaviour: when a person’s actions affect the wider environment, such as public spaces or buildings.

Below those 3 there are 13 distinct types of anti-social behaviour for legal purposes:

1. Vehicle abandoned
2. Vehicle nuisance or inappropriate use
3. Rowdy or inconsiderate behaviour
4. Rowdy or nuisance neighbours
5. Littering or drugs paraphernalia
6. Animal problems
7. Trespassing
8. Nuisance calls
9. Street drinking
10. Activities related to sex workers or sex working
11. Nuisance noise
12. Begging
13. Misuse of fireworks

The punishment for antisocial behaviour is a civil injunction, Community Protection Notice (CPN) or Criminal Behaviour Order (CBO). Civil injunctions, CPNs and CBOs replaced Antisocial Behaviour Orders (ASBOs) in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. ASBOs are still used in Scotland.

More details on punishments for antisocial behaviour can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/civil-injunctions-criminal-behaviour-orders

THC

GusB · 5 Feb 2024

Gloster said:
He may have been asocial, which in its true meaning means not social. It just means that you take no pleasure in doing things or being with groups of people and much prefer solitary pursuits or those carried out with a small number of selected, and probably similarly-minded, friends. You don’t do anything negative or get involved with others and are quite happy on your own.

This resonates with me. I like to go out for a "quiet pint"; sometimes it's not as quiet in the pub as I would have anticipated, but there's a bit of banter, music on the jukebox that It wouldn't ordinarily listen to.

I'm quite content to let everyone get on with it but, on occasion, there will be someone who sees me sitting at the end of the bar, apparently not enjoying myself as much as I should be and they'll try to involve me. If I'm in a jovial enough mood I'll happily join in, but sometimes that's not the case and I just want to be left alone.

What irritates me most is when they translate that desire to be left alone into a hostile action; it doesn't necessarily start off as hostile, but they'll take it as such and you end up feeling that you are the one who has the problem.

Busaholic · 5 Feb 2024

GusB said:
This resonates with me. I like to go out for a "quiet pint"; sometimes it's not as quiet in the pub as I would have anticipated, but there's a bit of banter, music on the jukebox that It wouldn't ordinarily listen to.

I'm quite content to let everyone get on with it but, on occasion, there will be someone who sees me sitting at the end of the bar, apparently not enjoying myself as much as I should be and they'll try to involve me. If I'm in a jovial enough mood I'll happily join in, but sometimes that's not the case and I just want to be left alone.

What irritates me most is when they translate that desire to be left alone into a hostile action; it doesn't necessarily start off as hostile, but they'll take it as such and you end up feeling that you are the one who has the problem.

That all resonates with me too, although these days it'd be in a coffee shop. I'm too polite, though, when someone who's chatted once zeroes in on me every time they come in, even though it's sometimes fairly obvious I'm busy e.g. writing a letter or chatting/texting on the phone.

James H · 5 Feb 2024

If you spend much time dealing with police-related meetings, or local government etc, people will casually talk about 'ASB' - a set of initials which to members of the Church of England of a certain age immediately makes them think of the Alternative Service Book 1980.

Fermiboson · 6 Feb 2024

THC said:
Antisocial behaviour is clearly defined in English law as "behaviour by a person which causes, or is likely to cause, harassment, alarm or distress to persons not of the same household as the person" (Antisocial Behaviour Act 2003 and Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011).

There are three main categories for antisocial behaviour, depending on how many people are affected:

- Personal antisocial behaviour: when a person targets a specific individual or group.
- Nuisance antisocial behaviour: when a person causes trouble, annoyance or suffering to a community.
- Environmental antisocial behaviour: when a person’s actions affect the wider environment, such as public spaces or buildings.

Below those 3 there are 13 distinct types of anti-social behaviour for legal purposes:

1. Vehicle abandoned
2. Vehicle nuisance or inappropriate use
3. Rowdy or inconsiderate behaviour
4. Rowdy or nuisance neighbours
5. Littering or drugs paraphernalia
6. Animal problems
7. Trespassing
8. Nuisance calls
9. Street drinking
10. Activities related to sex workers or sex working
11. Nuisance noise
12. Begging
13. Misuse of fireworks

The punishment for antisocial behaviour is a civil injunction, Community Protection Notice (CPN) or Criminal Behaviour Order (CBO). Civil injunctions, CPNs and CBOs replaced Antisocial Behaviour Orders (ASBOs) in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. ASBOs are still used in Scotland.

More details on punishments for antisocial behaviour can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/civil-injunctions-criminal-behaviour-orders

THC

I understand the legal definitions of such, but my question was more oriented towards why the term continued in use in the way it has in the UK and not other countries, and also ambiguity surrounding its everyday use - for example your definition for "nuisance antisocial behaviour" already contradicts the characterisation given by an earlier poster:

In English the inclusion of the word "social" in the term is clearly describing situations where any negative consequences are felt by no more than a few dozen people.

And such confusions and contradictions, when the term is used in a legal act which ostracises people via a civil procedure, does not seem like a good idea never mind the wider societal attitude it implies. I do think that the distinction between "asocial" and "anti-social" is an interesting one in UK usage and does not seem to be well translated into any other context.

MP33 · 6 Feb 2024

Recently speaking to two men who I will not be meeting at a place in the future for the reason that they are banned. They maintain that they did nothing wrong. I wonder how many holders of these orders are unable to take in that their actions are unacceptable.

In the cases above, one of them drinks far too much which explains everything.

Magdalia · 6 Feb 2024

GusB said:
I'm quite content to let everyone get on with it but, on occasion, there will be someone who sees me sitting at the end of the bar, apparently not enjoying myself as much as I should be and they'll try to involve me.

It is one of the unwritten rules of pub behaviour that people alone at the bar are open to conversations with strangers. It is one of the things that makes a pub different from drinking places in most of the rest of the world. In many pubs the locals would consider it their responsibility to talk to a stranger sitting alone at the bar as part of demonstrating that their pub was a welcoming place, and they would feel it rude not to do that.

If you don't want to talk to people the solution is simple: sit at a table away from the bar and you will almost certainly be left undisturbed. For the locals, where people sit is their main signal of whether they should try to start a conversation or not.

oldman · 6 Feb 2024

Fermiboson said:
the term continued in use in the way it has in the UK and not other countries

Ambiguities in the use of terms like antisocial or asocial are not confined to Britain or the English-speaking world.

The Dutch wikipedia article on Asociaal gedrag is an example. It defines it as a form of delinquent behaviour, but says that in the first part of the 20th century it was used to mean unsociability. Sounds very like English.

61653 HTAFC · 7 Feb 2024

oldman said:
Ambiguities in the use of terms like antisocial or asocial are not confined to Britain or the English-speaking world.

The Dutch wikipedia article on Asociaal gedrag is an example. It defines it as a form of delinquent behaviour, but says that in the first part of the 20th century it was used to mean unsociability. Sounds very like English.

I blame the Frisians! :lol:

sk688 · 7 Feb 2024

Fermiboson said:
I understand the legal definitions of such, but my question was more oriented towards why the term continued in use in the way it has in the UK and not other countries

I moved to Ireland a few months ago and the term "anti-social behaviour" is very common amongst Irish civil society and the press , particularly when reporting about Dublin city centre !

Busaholic · 8 Feb 2024

sk688 said:
I moved to Ireland a few months ago and the term "anti-social behaviour" is very common amongst Irish civil society and the press , particularly when reporting about Dublin city centre !

I don't think the term suddenly ceases at the Irish border. :smile:

Falcon1200 · 8 Feb 2024

Fermiboson said:
“anti-social behaviour” is commonly used and well understood to mean “things that are possibly against the law and annoying, as opposed to dangerous

That is what I have always understood 'anti-social behaviour' to refer to, albeit to non-criminal acts; Such as feet on seats, loud swearing, excessive drinking, cat-calling, littering; Acts which cause annoyance and distress to other people.

Fermiboson said:
So I was quite surprised to see the term being used so freely and casually in the UK for a generally non-malicious purpose, and I must confess I am still highly uncomfortable with the use of the term. As far as I can tell, the UK is unique in its use of the term and nowhere else in the Anglosphere, or even in Europe, really uses it (and/or translated equivalent) to mean “being loud and obnoxious on the train”.

What form of words would be used elsewhere to describe the kind of things I mentioned above? And I doubt many in the UK would associate the term being discussed here with the two examples in the OP.

Fermiboson · 8 Feb 2024

Falcon1200 said:
What form of words would be used elsewhere to describe the kind of things I mentioned above? And I doubt many in the UK would associate the term being discussed here with the two examples in the OP.

I have no doubt that many in the UK do not associate the term with the two uses I mentioned; after all, if they were, it would not be so uncontroversially and widely used.

Various other descriptors are used for behaviours grouped under ASB in the UK. Some of them refer to specific types of ASB, for example “public indecency” can cover unhygienic or obscene acts in public; “making trouble” is also a common euphemism (or their translated equivalents). In many Asian languages there is a term that can best be translated as “anti-normal activity” which corresponds somewhat to ASB, although it can also be used in personal or private contexts (in which case it is a more limited version of “insane”); use of “anti-social” is usually limited in the academic context of anti-social personality disorder. I do see that there appears to be different uses of the term for many European countries; I’m personally more familiar with the German case where use of the term does appear to have been largely abandoned due to Holocaust-related connotations.

“Anti-social behaviour”

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