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How common are dividing trains in the UK?

PaulJ

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Or the Dover Priory & Dover Priory - Victoria, one bit leaving nearly an hour earlier (1521 I think) and running via Minster (Reverse), Ramsgate and Herne Bay while at 1618, a portion leave Dover to go via Canterbury East to Faversham, where they join. Unsure what the announcement is at Victoria.
That'll be 1S30 1310 Victoria to Dover which then becomes 2R99 1524 Dover to Faversham via Ramsgate. At Faversham it joins 1P52 1618 Dover to Victoria. The 1310 is just advertised as going to Dover at Victoria.
 
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Kite159

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There's conflicting advice - Caledonian Sleeper don't sell berths from Edinburgh on the Highland Sleeper, and when I asked their customer services, they confirmed that they don't permit new passengers to join, even in the seated section.

And I'm pretty sure the time of day when the Highland Sleeper arrives at Edinburgh from Fort William/Inverness/Aberdeen, the station itself is locked up so a passenger wouldn't even be able to reach the platform to board the sleeper. I presume the tiny number (?) of passengers whom alight from the Fort William portion are escorted off the station, exiting via a gate/door which is closed behind them.
 

Jamiescott1

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Peak time gwr services from Paddington split at Reading with half going to Didcot and half to Newbury.

The live departures on the gwr app list the train destination as "Didcot parkway and Newbury" but then only lists the stops on the Didcot branch. The app is not set up to show splits
 

dk1

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Without trawling through this thread, it’s about to happen with the new Cardiff-Edinburgh service I believe at New Street.
 

Deepgreen

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Annoyingly, it's a split at a passenger station (Waverley) but you're not allowed to board it there. The Lowland Sleeper is a split at a true non-passenger station (Carstairs)
When did Carstairs cease to be a passenger station (i.e. closed)? I'm sure I would have noticed more publicity about the closure.
 

Marton

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The weekday 0614 2D04 Darlington to Saltburn divides at Middlesbrough.
The front becomes 2D83 to Whitby.

Whether the front set is open or not I don’t know. Possibly not.
 

TrainBoy98

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Southern have (at least on a Saturday evening) a service from Southampton to Brighton that attaches to an extra 4 coaches at Littlehampton.

Really confuses the CIS at all the stations before the attachment... "Board the rear 7 coaches for Durrington" followed "this service is formed of 4 coaches" and by a 4 coach train showing up, confusing pax further
 
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Bikeman78

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...which is a 3-way split! This must be the only example of a 3-way split in the UK surely?
There used to be a 12 car Southern train from Victoria that split at Haywards Heath and again at Worthing. There might have been some that split at Haywards Heath and Eastbourne but I cannot be certain.
 

duffield

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I seem to remember (from when I worked on the IT for the BR timetables many years ago) that there were some services that used to split, take different routes and then rejoin later before proceeding to their final destination. This was somewhere in the old Network Southeast area. Does this still happen?
 

Martin_1981

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I remember catching an Edinburgh to Plymouth service at Bristol Temple Meads (think it was around 2015/2016) one winter evening. Train came in with 2 x 4 coach class 220 Voyagers, the rear Voyager was removed and only the front one continued to Plymouth. Luckily I was quick and got a seat but for many it was standing room only as far as Exeter!
 

Baji

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This is a question about where a divide takes place.
During the rush hour periods, the Epsom - London Bridge semi-fast trains (all stations to Norwood Junction then fast to LBG) are 10-car. After the morning rush, they are 5-car. I'm asking where the divide takes place? Epsom? Are 5 cars left in an Epsom siding to be be picked up late aftrnoon ready for the evening rush?
After morning peak 1P20 off Caterham/Tattenham Corner having arrived at London Bridge splits and forms 1K23 and 1K25. Then they after arriving at London Bridge as 1K42 and 1K44 attaching and form 1P49. 1P16 splits to form 1K19 and 1K21 then 1K38 and 1K40 attaching and form 1P45. Evening 1P56 splits to form 1K59 and 1K61. 1P60 forms 1K63 (which then frorms 1K66 and attaching to 1P66 front then forms front portion of 1P71) and 1K65. 1P66 splits and forms 1K69 and rear portion of 1P71.
Why do they need to reduce to 5 coaches at off peak- doesn’t it make sense to run with 10 coaches all day long. I thought they have a total of 34x 5 car units. Do they not get used all day (i Know some undergoing engineering works but they still do it during peak hours)
so out of all the 377/6 and 377/7 (5 car units)
 

Andy1673

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Why do they need to reduce to 5 coaches at off peak- doesn’t it make sense to run with 10 coaches all day long. I thought they have a total of 34x 5 car units. Do they not get used all day (i Know some undergoing engineering works but they still do it during peak hours)
so out of all the 377/6 and 377/7 (5 car unit
Middays see lesser
Midday passenger flows lesser than peak ones, so it`s quite justified. Southern possibly would like to reduce the units` mileage and obviously some maintenance required for the units. All trains cannot be serviced during the night and the depots are not large enough to accommodate all trains. Weekdays allocation of 377/6/7 is 30 of 34, including 3 solo 377/7s for West London line. 10 of 30 (4 in pairs and 2 solo) having midday stable and maintenance at Selhurst and Stewarts lane depots.
 

Kent99

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NXEA / Greater Anglia also used to do a few splits. Namely LST to Walton-on-the-Naze and Braintree (dividing at Witham). The announcements would sound “greater Anglia service to X and X, calling at X where this train divides”
 

nw1

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...which is a 3-way split! This must be the only example of a 3-way split in the UK surely?

I think for a while there was a Southern service in the evening peak which did a three-way split at Redhill (possibly Horsham, Reigate and Tonbridge).

EDIT: This seems to be shown in the 2013 timetable as the 1732 service from London Bridge, though it's shown in an odd way. The Horsham(?) and Tonbridge are shown in one column using the standard divider curly bracket symbol, then another column duplicates the 1732 with a Reigate portion and a portion going nowhere. Furthermore the Horsham(?) portion seems to disappear at Horley, the "continued on later column" symbol is there but no subsequent column shows it. Perhaps the 3-way split confused the software used to render the timetable?

This timetable is available on Network Rail along with others of the era.
 
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fkofilee

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I once saw a service that was going to be split between Littlehampton, Ore and Eastbourne quite a few years back on Southern.
I know it is done as such.
 

MCR247

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I once saw a service that was going to be split between Littlehampton, Ore and Eastbourne quite a few years back on Southern.
I know it is done as such.
With that one, instead of it being a three way split in one go, the Littlehampton detaches at Haywards Heath, with 8 coaches then going to Eastbourne, where the front 4 of these then terminate. The rear 4 detaches and goes back out to Ore. So the middle set on this one doesn’t actually run on its own
 

dk1

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NXEA / Greater Anglia also used to do a few splits. Namely LST to Walton-on-the-Naze and Braintree (dividing at Witham). The announcements would sound “greater Anglia service to X and X, calling at X where this train divides”
We for a time had a 9-car 170 leaving Liverpool St. Front unit terminated Norwich, middle went forward to Yarmouth & the rear detached at Ipswich for Lowestoft. Usually caused chaos as the PIS could only show one destination & calling points which was Great Yarmouth.
 

nw1

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I seem to remember (from when I worked on the IT for the BR timetables many years ago) that there were some services that used to split, take different routes and then rejoin later before proceeding to their final destination. This was somewhere in the old Network Southeast area. Does this still happen?

I don't specifically remember any examples though one possibility that springs to mind is some kind of London-London circular service in Kent (e.g. one portion CHX-Ashford-Ramsgate-Dover-Ashford-CHX and the other CHX-Ashford-Dover-Ramsgate-Ashford-CHX). Not sure if such services actually ever ran, though.
 

Taunton

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The old Southern Region were past masters at this, but much seems to have fallen away, for a range of reasons.

Principal is modern generation rolling stock doesn't like joining and dividing. One would think it would be in the original design spec, and indeed seems possible on equivalent modern stock overseas, but not here. I think the nadir was the Class 458, which needed (needs?) half an hour to reboot everything. Old generation stock could divide and the first half be away in one minute, with the second section following onto a different route just a further minute later.

It seems the need for a separate staff of shunters on site to handle the attaching has been removed as a cost saving.

On time reporting is impacted by difficulties where one of the sections is delayed. Easier to run separate trains. If the connection is missed, too bad. Missed connections are not reported to the DfT, or to Roger Ford for his Golden Whistles.
 

nw1

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The old Southern Region were past masters at this, but much seems to have fallen away, for a range of reasons.

Principal is modern generation rolling stock doesn't like joining and dividing. One would think it would be in the original design spec, and indeed seems possible on equivalent modern stock overseas, but not here. I think the nadir was the Class 458, which needed (needs?) half an hour to reboot everything. Old generation stock could divide and the first half be away in one minute, with the second section following onto a different route just a further minute later.

It seems the need for a separate staff of shunters on site to handle the attaching has been removed as a cost saving.

On time reporting is impacted by difficulties where one of the sections is delayed. Easier to run separate trains. If the connection is missed, too bad. Missed connections are not reported to the DfT, or to Roger Ford for his Golden Whistles.

Southern still seem to do it, though less so than in around 2013.

Also SWR still do it at Waterloo (in the manner described above for Epsom/Caterham/Tattenham services), or certainly did in the 2004-19 period - and at Bournemouth (front 5 to Weymouth).

As you say more time is needed nowadays for a split-join process. In the 80s typically a train would arrive, the front portion would be away in 2 min, and the rear portion in 4 (I never saw any examples of 3 mins as presumably there is a minimum 2-minute headway between departures from the same platform). One example was the Basingstoke/Alton dividers. In some hours they would arrive Woking xx11/41, Basingstoke portion out xx13/xx43 and Alton portion out xx15/xx45. This was only possible, however, in hours when there was no xx14/xx44 towards Portsmouth, which would have to be slotted in between the xx13 and xx15 (easy to see why, with a conflict, that would not work too well). Otherwise the Alton left at xx17/xx47.

Now it seems to be front portion away in 4 mins and rear portion in 7, so significantly less efficient and losing more time.

With this lower efficiency you can see why it's not as attractive as it once was.

Re the separate staff of shunters, how did they manage when they did splitting and joining at remote termini such as East Grinstead and Tattenham Corner? At such places it was common practice to leave one unit there during the off-peak period and pick it up again in time for the evening peak.
 
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swt_passenger

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Principal is modern generation rolling stock doesn't like joining and dividing. One would think it would be in the original design spec, and indeed seems possible on equivalent modern stock overseas, but not here. I think the nadir was the Class 458, which needed (needs?) half an hour to reboot everything. Old generation stock could divide and the first half be away in one minute, with the second section following onto a different route just a further minute later.
My experience of SWR Desiros and SN Electrostars is they hardly ever have any problems splitting or joining. Splitting is routinely done during the length of slightly longer station calls. The original 458 problem that led them to only split or join on depot was the gangways.
 

zwk500

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The old Southern Region were past masters at this, but much seems to have fallen away, for a range of reasons.

Principal is modern generation rolling stock doesn't like joining and dividing. One would think it would be in the original design spec, and indeed seems possible on equivalent modern stock overseas, but not here.
Plenty of stock is perfectly capable of it, and has done for many years. Southern had plenty of divide/attach services as already mentioned, and the 377s handled it absolutely fine.
Old generation stock could divide and the first half be away in one minute, with the second section following onto a different route just a further minute later.
This is as much if not more signalling related than stock. Signalling the train into the occupied platform takes longer, and with longer trains and safer signalling design routes take longer to be released.
On time reporting is impacted by difficulties where one of the sections is delayed. Easier to run separate trains. If the connection is missed, too bad. Missed connections are not reported to the DfT, or to Roger Ford for his Golden Whistles.
This is indeed the primary reason - you can run a higher throughput of service if you're not attaching/detaching, especially in the former southern region where trains regularly have high loads well into the latter stages of their routes.
 

duffield

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The 395 I was on yesterday from Dover attached pretty slickly to the one waiting at Ashford. It was allowed 5 minutes at Ashford, but arrived 2 late and only left 1 late, and about 2 of the 4 minutes at Ashford were spent with the doors open for passengers pre-attaching. I moved to the front set for a quick exit at St. Pancras and oddly, nearly every single passenger on that set was crammed into the rear two coaches, the rest were almost empty.
 

Meerkat

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I was on the Basingstoke/Alton splitter on Sunday. It does lead to even more repetitive announcements, and lots of shouting at the split as passengers get told to step away as they hit the door buttons wondering why they can't get into a train they are sure they are on time for.
Why does the rear train go backwards rather than the front one pull forwards - is moving forward against a red seen as too risky? Can the rear section's driver reverse from the front cab (of the rear section) or do they have to open the rear cab, then shut it down and open the front cab?

Even back in less H&S days seeing shunters clambering on and off platforms between coaches and being near moving trains seemed a bit dodgy.
 

43066

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Why does the rear train go backwards rather than the front one pull forwards - is moving forward against a red seen as too risky?

Varies by location, and can come down to how the train is platformed.

Can the rear section's driver reverse from the front cab (of the rear section) or do they have to open the rear cab, then shut it down and open the front cab?

Absolutely not! You have to open up the cab you're splitting/joining from, and perform the manoeuvre from there.
 
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MaidaVale

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There are some GWR services that split at Exeter St Davids with the front portion continuing to Plymouth, and the rear portion heading straight back to Paddington within half an hour such as the 16.35 from Paddington.

Interestingly the return leg shows up as a continuation of the outbound leg on data sources such as RTT, although this isn't usually shown on CIS (apart from one time I witnessed during disruption when the Plymouth portion was cancelled. I found it rather amusing seeing "Exeter St Davids & London Paddington" displayed on the departure boards... at London Paddington. It was obviously unintentional as it soon switched to just "London Paddington" and then just "Exeter St Davids")

 

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