It seems to be getting more frequent on the routes that I drive that controlled signals are being left on that shouldn't be. In other words, the train is being checked down to a red signal when you know that the route ahead is definitely clear. This is very frustrating for a driver when you have to stop unnecessarily and send an SG and then the signal pings off to green. It is not unheard of for it to happen 5 or 6 times a day. Are there any signallers who could give a perspective on this please?
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Drivers v Signallers
- Thread starter Nobby
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RailUK Forums
Intermodal
Established Member
Why is it frustrating? Forget about it! You're getting paid £50-80k to sit there.
Lots of reasons a signal could be at danger when there isn't a train in section.
Lots of reasons a signal could be at danger when there isn't a train in section.
GardenRail
Member
How do you know the route ahead is definitely clear? Not saying it doesn't happen, but how can you definitely be sure?
75A
Established Member
We would have it every morning @ Portslade when on the first train of the day - papers to Worthing around 5am, he'd always bring us to a stand before clearig. You can imagine the names we called him.
It's interesting when you SG and the signal goes from red to yellow to green quickly. This usually happens late at night or early morning so I'm assuming the signaller is probably asleep! 
Probably cause the signal pings off as soon as you SG and you ain't running on restrictive after which indicates there's probably nothing ahead of ya
But there might have been a possession for pway to do something which has just been given up, so the route wasn't clear? With the effective ban on red zone working I believe the number of short possessions has risen.
It's also worth remembering that some signal boxes/panels now cover huge areas. The signaller could be dealing with something urgent miles away, or be snowed under a high workload with lots going on. They don't delay trains just for the fun of it.
Exactly that, and after driving the route for years you know what is scheduled in front of you
75A
Established Member
That's what we thought, no train for a few hours, barriers to be put down.It's interesting when you SG and the signal goes from red to yellow to green quickly. This usually happens late at night or early morning so I'm assuming the signaller is probably asleep!
This was in the early 80' but would happen on average 6 day out of 7.
That's fine then, hence why I asked for a signaller's perspective. I have visited major signal boxes when I was a trainee and there didnt seem to be a lot going on except tea drinking and biscuit eating lol
I've been fortunate to visit a few as a trainee. The grade 7 box I visited that covers some very busy junctions was fairly quite at the time, until they had a points failure where everything went crazy, we decided that was our que to say thank you very much and finish our visit. The grade 6 box I visited that covers long and slow rural lines was fairly quiet train wise but was non-stop getting calls from Telephone crossings as it was peak summer time so the signaller ended up not being able to get the CCTV crossing sorted in good time so the train was getting checked down to it.That's fine then, hence why I asked for a signaller's perspective. I have visited major signal boxes when I was a trainee and there didnt seem to be a lot going on except tea drinking and biscuit eating lol
I guess it can be complete luck of the draw. Although our local box does have one signaller who, when on duty, you can guarantee you'll get checked down at certain points where it would be unlikely to be needed (slow rural branch line with not many services), anytime of day, any day of the week, and he hates it when you press the SG button, he wants you to call instead, but that goes against our instructions.
After driving the route for years. You should be used to it.
It can get frustrating and I do understand your perspective but after a certain point in your career you will just begin to ignore it and let it wash over you. As you say with years of experience, there are times when you know something just isn't right; for a plethora of reasons.
There is a fine collection of Signallers on this forum who will no doubt come in with a great response. Yeah there are times when SG works its magic and times when WAIT seems to be permanently etched on the GSMR panel. I think OOPS and SORRY should be added to the message list
I have visited major signal boxes when I was a trainee and there didnt seem to be a lot going on except tea drinking and biscuit eating lol
Box trips are a great place to ask specific questions about a panel/signal section. I've learned some great insights from the visits I've had.
I know some signallers in controlled boxes that don't like to give trains a caution signal. So if the train is stopped for junction regulation etc, they hold them at red until they can give them a green. The thought process is that some trains take a longer time to come through at caution where if they just waited at the red signal for another minute, they could get all greens thus reducing overall delay. It's definitely not always the case and often just better to get moving on a caution but this mentality is a thing.
185
Established Member
- Joined
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It annoys me a little, some signallers are excellent and will have you signalled through, no messing about. You can often tell who is on by their signalling.
Other signallers - you've just travelled 150 miles and 15 stations without as much as 15 seconds late, not a single other train due to move on their panel... then you're randomly 3L-7L. It's those signallers who will get the smaller boxes shut and replaced by ROCs, which is a shame when there's so many good signallers who would suffer too.
Other signallers - you've just travelled 150 miles and 15 stations without as much as 15 seconds late, not a single other train due to move on their panel... then you're randomly 3L-7L. It's those signallers who will get the smaller boxes shut and replaced by ROCs, which is a shame when there's so many good signallers who would suffer too.
CarrotPie
Member
Not as many as of the driver...
Doesn't really matter why the signal was red. The driver should be stopping. If anything, if the signal could have been green, then it may actually have highlighted an issue whether that's with a drivers driving style in a 'safe' way or something else.
Goes without saying.......which is why I didnt lol
GardenRail
Member
No. Its a drivers obligation to read the signals correctly, and stop if needed. We 'can' (if we want to) use a red signal for such simple things as to slow trains down if early. So long as the signalling sequence is working as intended, there is no problem.
Fair enough
Gloster
Established Member
I left the railway long before privatisation and was always a ‘keep ‘em rolling’ signalman. As far as stopping or slowing trains are concerned, there will always be a good reason, whether technical or human. Problems can be anything from somebody being a bit dilatory ‘phoning the box to confirm that an accommodation crossing is clear to a car driver trying to dodge the barriers, skidding and stalling on the crossing. Yes, sometimes a signalman will slightly misjudge when to put barriers down or make a movement, but mostly it is something out of their control; going to sleep and forgetting something is probably even rarer now than then. The biggest problem we faced was the b****y drivers: either not contacting you when they should or ringing incessantly for updates when you are busy, taking an inordinate time to get moving once you have given them the road, stopping short unnecessarily, etc.: I could go on..and on and…
As far as the idea of signal boxes being quiet and peaceful: well, yes, if the signalman are on the top the job and all is running as it should it may appear so. Wait until you have barrier failures, failed trains, points out of order or an idiot wandering around on the track: then you will see organised chaos.
You sure you weren’t being taken in under the Warning Arrangement, which might be permitted for non-passenger workings and only needed when some boxes were switched out for the night.
The whole thread does show the way the railway has changed. Even if there was a certain amount of (usually) good-natured signalman v. driver joshing, we were all part of the same organisation.
As far as the idea of signal boxes being quiet and peaceful: well, yes, if the signalman are on the top the job and all is running as it should it may appear so. Wait until you have barrier failures, failed trains, points out of order or an idiot wandering around on the track: then you will see organised chaos.
You sure you weren’t being taken in under the Warning Arrangement, which might be permitted for non-passenger workings and only needed when some boxes were switched out for the night.
The whole thread does show the way the railway has changed. Even if there was a certain amount of (usually) good-natured signalman v. driver joshing, we were all part of the same organisation.
If anything it loves to run trains early!
GardenRail
Member
It does exactly this. Ours often brings trains to a stand at Treeton Jn (no longer a junction) on the mainline, as its a reporting point in Trust and if its early, will hold unless we notice or take action.
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Unless you’re under Piccadilly station panel, then it means “I’m happy to wait 10 minutes whilst you run everything around me”
GardenRail
Member
I'm the only train on the network syndrome....
Always seems to come on on the going home train
I recall some years ago a by then retired Edinburgh driver telling me that he had been driving on a passenger turn from Edinburgh to Newcastle and had been joined in the cab at Edinburgh by one of the two former Reid BRB chairmen and Green then the ScR General Manager. The train was cautioned unexpectedly south of Berwick due to a crossing barrier having been slow to be lowered. According to the driver Mr Green produced a 1st generation cordless phone which were still fairly rare at the time to give the order for this matter to be investigated and reported back to him prior to his arrival at Newcastle - and it was.
Dunfanaghy Rd
Member
I am reminded of the remark of a Woking driver some 30 years ago, relating his reply when his son came home and told him that he was going to be a signaller. 'You're my son, and I'll always love you, but you're the enemy now!'
Pat
Pat