Multilingual announcements

Egg Centric · 7 Feb 2024

Just a thought - should we have more multilingual signage / announcements and if so where? Am thinking stuff like Urdu in West Yorks, Polish in Lincolnshire, and Everything in London.

Am aware that Southall, Wallsend* and so on exist so fairly sure that approach could be extended.

The counter argument would either be that a single language would help with integration or that everyone speaks English anyway but in that case we should abolish Welsh in Wales!

Certain when travelling abroad it is more common than not for there to be a certain level of English everywhere. We would in theory assist both tourists and new arrivals if we had other language provision - only real issue imo is practicalities but I'm sure this could be targeted

*Ok hard to argue the Wallsend example is particularly useful...

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Gloster · 7 Feb 2024

Just how long should each series of messages go on for?

Mcr Warrior · 7 Feb 2024

Gatwick Express always used to play pre-recorded announcements that the service was approaching Gatwick Airport (these were in English / French / German languages) as the train trundled past Horley station.

Egg Centric · 7 Feb 2024

Gloster said:
Just how long should each series of messages go on for?

No clue. Ideally we get rid of the piles of pointless announcements at the same time so end up with less in total...

Mcr Warrior said:
Gatwick Express always used to play pre-recorded announcements that the service was approaching Gatwick Airport (these were in English / French / German languages) as the train trundled past Horley station.

Wouldn't know cause there are almost no conceivable circumstances I'd take Gatwick Express, in its modern incarnation anyway!

(Ok maybe the extended runs to Brighton)

W-on-Sea · 8 Feb 2024

I suppose learning how to say "See it, say it, sorted" in a multiplicity of languages would have a certain utility...of frustation, mostly.

But in short: other than in exceptional cases (airports, maybe ports, and I suppose Bicester Village as things stand), I would say generally not. In particular regarding announcements.

Specific printed notices in appropriate languages at specific locations are certainly of value though (Whether aimed at attracting Chinese tourists at Moreton-in-Marsh, or deterring Albanian potential criminals at Barking....to give two outstandingly contrasting examples that can be found on the network now), and have been for a long time, and are likely to remain so. (I've sure I've seen photos of signs in Polish at Broad Street and/or Liverpool Street, back in pre-BR 1960s corporate identity days, possibly about accessing the then-existing boat trains to Harwich, and well before the UK had anything like the size of Polish-speaking population it has today).

Concerning announcements, as much as anything, there is no obvious "second language that is widely understood" (Welsh in some parts of Wales, of course) that has similar de facto standing to that which English has across the world at the present time. It's also the case that a higher proportion of visitors to the UK will have some command of the national language than is the case for visitors to most (non-Anglophone) countries (France maybe being the nearest thing to an exception)

Good visual displays of relevant information on digital screens on trains (which certainly is increasing year-on-year) is more likely to do the job both more effectively and unobtrusively. Having more multilingual staff, too. I suppose things could be done with apps, too. Or providing translated versions of the National Rail/TOC websites.

Adding to the already excessive mass of aural clutter for everyone, though, will be more of a hindrance than a help to clarity of communication, whatever one's first language.

That said, the approach absolutely not to model would be that used in Belgium: using one language (without translation) in one region, and then another language (without translation) in another region, despite the fact that the towns and their stations often have different names in each language.

Pigeon · 8 Feb 2024

W-on-Sea said:
I suppose learning how to say "See it, say it, sorted" in a multiplicity of languages would have a certain utility...of frustation, mostly.

"Vide, dice, ordinatus", as Julius Caesar said.

AlastairFraser · 8 Feb 2024

Egg Centric said:
Just a thought - should we have more multilingual signage / announcements and if so where? Am thinking stuff like Urdu in West Yorks, Polish in Lincolnshire, and Everything in London.

Am aware that Southall, Wallsend* and so on exist so fairly sure that approach could be extended.

The counter argument would either be that a single language would help with integration or that everyone speaks English anyway but in that case we should abolish Welsh in Wales!

Certain when travelling abroad it is more common than not for there to be a certain level of English everywhere. We would in theory assist both tourists and new arrivals if we had other language provision - only real issue imo is practicalities but I'm sure this could be targeted

*Ok hard to argue the Wallsend example is particularly useful...

I think translated signage at all airport/international port stations and major termini (all the London termini/Man Picc & Vic/Glasgow Central etc..) would be sensible.

It doesn't have to be complex, just a station and network map on a board with ticketing and conduct rules displayed to the side of the map, translated into 4 or 5 major world languages alongside the English meaning (I'd use Spanish, French, Arabic, Mandarin Chinese and Hindi would suffice, as these are the world's 5 most spoken languages after English and a visitor or new arrival is likely to understand at least one of them).

Sussex Ben · 8 Feb 2024

Mcr Warrior said:
Gatwick Express always used to play pre-recorded announcements that the service was approaching Gatwick Airport (these were in English / French / German languages) as the train trundled past Horley station.

These days Gatwick Express announcements come in English, French, Spanish and Italian. Pretty certain German was also included at one time but was dropped a while ago (possibly when the 387s came in).

As a fairly frequent user it can get a bit tiresome, but it is a service that has a lot of foreign users so it’s understandable. I would be interested to hear if Heathrow Express or Stansted Express go to similar lengths with their automated announcements having not used either for a very long time.

etr221 · 9 Feb 2024

W-on-Sea said:
Specific printed notices in appropriate languages at specific locations are certainly of value though (Whether aimed at attracting Chinese tourists at Moreton-in-Marsh, or deterring Albanian potential criminals at Barking....to give two outstandingly contrasting examples that can be found on the network now), and have been for a long time, and are likely to remain so. (I've sure I've seen photos of signs in Polish at Broad Street and/or Liverpool Street, back in pre-BR 1960s corporate identity days, possibly about accessing the then-existing boat trains to Harwich, and well before the UK had anything like the size of Polish-speaking population it has today).

The notice in Polish (also I think in Dutch and German) at Broad Street (which lasted well into the 1970s) was to tell you that it was Broad Street, not Liverpool Street, which was the station across the road, and probably the one you wanted...

Mcr Warrior · 9 Feb 2024

etr221 said:
The notice in Polish (also I think in Dutch and German) at Broad Street (which lasted well into the 1970s) was to tell you that it was Broad Street, not Liverpool Street, which was the station across the road, and probably the one you wanted...

There is a pic of the Broad Street Station notice in "Lost Lines: LMR" (1994) by Nigel Welbourn.

The notice was indeed in four languages; English, Dutch, German and Polish.

The English wording read...

BROAD STREET STATION
THIS STATION IS BROAD STREET NOT LIVERPOOL STREET. PASSENGERS FOR EUROPE AND EASTERN COUNTIES OF ENGLAND SHOULD TRAVEL FROM LIVERPOOL STREET STATION ->

British Rail - London Midland

AlbertBeale · 9 Feb 2024

Mcr Warrior said:
Gatwick Express always used to play pre-recorded announcements that the service was approaching Gatwick Airport (these were in English / French / German languages) as the train trundled past Horley station.

On a GX train between London and Brighton recently, the train staff person on the intercom (I'm sure it wasn't a recording - if it was it would have been better done I suspect!) did the "this is Gatwick, thank you for travelling with ..." etc in English, French, Italian and Spanish - the French and Italian (which I understand) were certainly passable.

W-on-Sea said:
That said, the approach absolutely not to model would be that used in Belgium: using one language (without translation) in one region, and then another language (without translation) in another region, despite the fact that the towns and their stations often have different names in each language.

Yes - I was surprised to find, chatting to someone on a train in Belgium recently, that not only do the announcements on the trains switch from one single language to another at linguistic boundaries (which I'd noticed of course), but also that a staff member using the "wrong" language for the area the train's in (even when dealing with an enquiry from a passenger) can get into trouble. If I'm in an area which is primarily Flemish speaking, then given I can only speak a few words of that language I find they're generally happier if I use English rather than French, even though my instinct is to be polite when abroad and use the/a local language rather than behaving like a stereotypical monoglot Brit.

Pigeon said:
"Vide, dice, ordinatus", as Julius Caesar said.

Excellent!!!

Turtle · 9 Feb 2024

W-on-Sea said:
I suppose learning how to say "See it, say it, sorted" in a multiplicity of languages would have a certain utility...of frustation, mostly.

But in short: other than in exceptional cases (airports, maybe ports, and I suppose Bicester Village as things stand), I would say generally not. In particular regarding announcements.

Specific printed notices in appropriate languages at specific locations are certainly of value though (Whether aimed at attracting Chinese tourists at Moreton-in-Marsh, or deterring Albanian potential criminals at Barking....to give two outstandingly contrasting examples that can be found on the network now), and have been for a long time, and are likely to remain so. (I've sure I've seen photos of signs in Polish at Broad Street and/or Liverpool Street, back in pre-BR 1960s corporate identity days, possibly about accessing the then-existing boat trains to Harwich, and well before the UK had anything like the size of Polish-speaking population it has today).

Concerning announcements, as much as anything, there is no obvious "second language that is widely understood" (Welsh in some parts of Wales, of course) that has similar de facto standing to that which English has across the world at the present time. It's also the case that a higher proportion of visitors to the UK will have some command of the national language than is the case for visitors to most (non-Anglophone) countries (France maybe being the nearest thing to an exception)

Good visual displays of relevant information on digital screens on trains (which certainly is increasing year-on-year) is more likely to do the job both more effectively and unobtrusively. Having more multilingual staff, too. I suppose things could be done with apps, too. Or providing translated versions of the National Rail/TOC websites.

Adding to the already excessive mass of aural clutter for everyone, though, will be more of a hindrance than a help to clarity of communication, whatever one's first language.

That said, the approach absolutely not to model would be that used in Belgium: using one language (without translation) in one region, and then another language (without translation) in another region, despite the fact that the towns and their stations often have different nVames in1 each language.

Clearly you didn't attend a Catholic school in the 1950s if you're surprised at that old BR notice in Polish. At my grammar school we even had Polish teachers!

Mikey C · 9 Feb 2024

From memory, I recall the on board train announcements at Bicester Village were in other languages as well, such as Mandarin and Arabic, reflecting the number of international visitors there.

Dent · 9 Feb 2024

Egg Centric said:
Just a thought - should we have more multilingual signage / announcements and if so where? Am thinking stuff like Urdu in West Yorks, Polish in Lincolnshire, and Everything in London.

What would "everything" consist of? Does this mean repeating announcements in every single known language, of which there must be hundreds if not thousands?

Egg Centric · 9 Feb 2024

Dent said:
What would "everything" consist of? Does this mean repeating announcements in every single known language, of which there must be hundreds if not thousands?

Yes. Every single one, even the stuff they speak on North Sentinel Island. Apart from Welsh, just to piss off the Crachach.

Mcr Warrior · 9 Feb 2024

Always seems strange when automated Welsh language announcements are made (in priority to those made in English language) on TfW services operating between Chester and Liverpool Lime Street.

Dent · 9 Feb 2024

Egg Centric said:
Yes. Every single one, even the stuff they speak on North Sentinel Island. Apart from Welsh, just to piss off the Crachach.

I think it's clear enough why this idea is a complete non-starter for London, and anywhere else which doesn't have a widely-spoken second language.

Llanigraham · 9 Feb 2024

I don't remember any English announcements on the trains we took this year, Lille - Avignon, or Lyon - Lille.
French only.

Gloster · 9 Feb 2024

Llanigraham said:
I don't remember any English announcements on the trains we took this year, Lille - Avignon, or Lyon - Lille.
French only.

That is France. The French attitude is that if you can’t speak French in France, then va te fo**re.

43096 · 9 Feb 2024

Egg Centric said:
Yes. Every single one, even the stuff they speak on North Sentinel Island. Apart from Welsh, just to piss off the Crachach.

Which reminded me of the Red Dwarf sketch... "Open communication channels. Broadcast on all known frequencies and in all known languages, including Welsh."

AlbertBeale · 9 Feb 2024

Llanigraham said:
I don't remember any English announcements on the trains we took this year, Lille - Avignon, or Lyon - Lille.
French only.

In the days of scheduled train/ferry connections on the Newhaven-Dieppe route, the announcement on the French train nearing Dieppe referred to the connections available on the train from Newhaven after the crossing. I don't think they were in English, but the French version was very clear about the need for connecting at Lewes for London trains on some services. The French pronunciation of Lewes always caused a chuckle for the British passengers - "Vous devez changer à Lewes", with Lewes coming out as "Leurs".

International TGVs are multilingual - eg the ones between Paris Est and Germany obviously have German as well as French; and I'm pretty sure I've heard Enliglish too on a TGV on the run-in to Paris.

I'm always fascinated by the way the combination of languages used on standard printed notices on trains in Europe undergoes a gradual shift as you travel across the continent. English, French, Italian and German was the commonest combination I was familiar with; but as I ventured further east, one or two of those would disappear, and trains would start including what were - to me then - incomprehensible eastern languages. The cultural differences - at least I took them to be cultural differences - that were/are apparent in the literal meanings of the translations are intriguing too. For example, the famous warning not to lean out of the window: in German it's simply a bald instruction (NICHT HINAUS LEHNEN); in more anarchic Italian - È PERICOLOSO SPORGERSI (sounds like an aria) - they just tell you it's dangerous but leave the decision it up to you...

On cross-Europe journeys, the buffet car is often a good place to go for interesting attempts at multi-lingual communication. I've occasionally, in central Europe, found I have a common (broken) language with the person serving in the buffet, and a different language in common with someone needing a drink, and helped them sort out the payment. Though I've yet to be offered a free drink on that back of that.

Turtle · 10 Feb 2024

AlbertBeale said:
In the days of scheduled train/ferry connections on the Newhaven-Dieppe route, the announcement on the French train nearing Dieppe referred to the connections available on the train from Newhaven after the crossing. I don't think they were in English, but the French version was very clear about the need for connecting at Lewes for London trains on some services. The French pronunciation of Lewes always caused a chuckle for the British passengers - "Vous devez changer à Lewes", with Lewes coming out as "Leurs".

International TGVs are multilingual - eg the ones between Paris Est and Germany obviously have German as well as French; and I'm pretty sure I've heard Enliglish too on a TGV on the run-in to Paris.

I'm always fascinated by the way the combination of languages used on standard printed notices on trains in Europe undergoes a gradual shift as you travel across the continent. English, French, Italian and German was the commonest combination I was familiar with; but as I ventured further east, one or two of those would disappear, and trains would start including what were - to me then - incomprehensible eastern languages. The cultural differences - at least I took them to be cultural differences - that were/are apparent in the literal meanings of the translations are intriguing too. For example, the famous warning not to lean out of the window: in German it's simply a bald instruction (NICHT HINAUS LEHNEN); in more anarchic Italian - È PERICOLOSO SPORGERSI (sounds like an aria) - they just tell you it's dangerous but leave the decision it up to you...

On cross-Europe journeys, the buffet car is often a good place to go for interesting attempts at multi-lingual communication. I've occasionally, in central Europe, found I have a common (broken) language with the person serving in the buffet, and a different language in common with someone needing a drink, and helped them sort out the payment. Though I've yet to be offered a free drink on that back of that.

Most entertaining post of the day!

Gloster · 10 Feb 2024

AlbertBeale said:
For example, the famous warning not to lean out of the window: in German it's simply a bald instruction (NICHT HINAUS LEHNEN); in more anarchic Italian - È PERICOLOSO SPORGERSI (sounds like an aria) - they just tell you it's dangerous but leave the decision it up to you...

Which is all a bit of a concession by the Germans to the fact that their coaches may be used by people from other countries. Germans tend, or at least tended, to work to the principle that all that is not specifically permitted is verboten.

LUYMun · 10 Feb 2024

Egg Centric said:
Just a thought - should we have more multilingual signage / announcements and if so where?

Aldershot has a sizeable Nepalese population, thanks to the Gurkha veterans having a loyal relationship with the British Army, the town (until recently) being the headquarters. The local buses have the "Not in Service" destination display switch translations into Nepalese, so it's not far-fetched of an idea for the rail station to have bilingual signs to accommodate these local needs.

Multilingual announcements

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