TPE Future Network

With TPE potentially ordering 29 new trains, what north trans pennine network be developed that purely operates with the 29 trains alone? For example:

• Liverpool - Newcastle
• Liverpool - York
• Manchester Airport - Hull
• Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough
• Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield
• Huddersfield - Leeds

Would that even be possible?

It is likely that the Huddersfield stoppers will move back to Northern at some point in the future.

Mollman said:

It is likely that the Huddersfield stoppers will move back to Northern at some point in the future.

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as should the Huddersfield to Leeds trains.
Are the other NE to Man Airport trains likely to return, or are they banned from the Castlefield corridor?

Are we presuming this is if these new trains are pure electric ?

Halifaxlad said:

Are we presuming this is if these new trains are pure electric ?

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Hope not, because if they are they won't be much use for the core of their network: Trans-Pennine! It will be decades before we have an electrified route between east and west. I would ask for powerful bi-modes which could then be cascaded to other routes not fully electrified.

Once the 4-tracking between Huddersfield and Dewsbury is complete, the scope allowed for 6ph between Leeds and Manchester. So maybe this new fleet could operate that service? Something like:

2ph Liverpool - Victoria - Hudds - Leeds - York, with one or both continuing to Newcastle.
2ph Victoria - Hudds - Leeds - Hull / Midds, with one or both starting from the Airport.
2ph Piccadilly - Stalybridge - Hudds - - > 1ph semi-fast to Leeds and 1ph to Wakefield.

Stoppers would then run from Victoria - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Leeds, operated by Northern.

I would suggest that TPE need to concentrate of delivering the current timetable, and making sure that progress made over the past 12 month is permanent. New (or too many different types of) trains was one of the undoings post 2018.

Before any timetable enhancements are considered or new trains introduced they need to make sure that adequate resources exist, not just enough to cover, but enough to cover a normal level of sickness, and to release staff for training on new stock without negative effects of the timetable.

Personally given the history of previous problems more 800 series would make sense, maybe some 7 car units for the main Newcastle - Liverpool services so that the 5 car units can be deployed on to the less busy routes.

The current timetable is very sparse compared with pre 2018, but personal experience since December is that on the whole reliabilty has been back up to close to pre 2018 level. Its taken no doubt a lot of pain to get to that point.

Anything new is going to have to be bi-mode, even the core route is many years from complete electrification, and the eastern outer ends are decades away.

mike57 said:

I would suggest that TPE need to concentrate of delivering the current timetable, and making sure that progress made over the past 12 month is permanent. New (or too many different types of) trains was one of the undoings post 2018.

Before any timetable enhancements are considered or new trains introduced they need to make sure that adequate resources exist, not just enough to cover, but enough to cover a normal level of sickness, and to release staff for training on new stock without negative effects of the timetable.

Personally given the history of previous problems more 800 series would make sense, maybe some 7 car units for the main Newcastle - Liverpool services so that the 5 car units can be deployed on to the less busy routes.

The current timetable is very sparse compared with pre 2018, but personal experience since December is that on the whole reliabilty has been back up to close to pre 2018 level. Its taken no doubt a lot of pain to get to that point.

Anything new is going to have to be bi-mode, even the core route is many years from complete electrification, and the eastern outer ends are decades away.

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You seem to be arguing TPE shouldn't be thinking about ordering new stock to take advantage of upgraded infrastructure, nor to keep up with passenger demand, until the current operation is perfect.

In the grand scheme of things traincrew competencies and availability are a medium term issue - this new rolling stock is not likely to be entering service before 2028 when (hopefully) all these problems are long resolved. If they wait until everything is perfect, then the whole thing is being delayed by however long (how many years?) it will take for that to be achieved.

IanXC said:

until the current operation is perfect.

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Not perfect, but resilient enough to be able to handle the introduction of new stock. The low risk solution, as I pointed out originally, would be more 800 bi modes, as there would be minimal impact on crew training, but no doubt the bean counters at the DfT will go for the cheapest solution, and TPE may end up with another microfleet, with all the attendent problems, and this is while the previous examples of that thinking, 68s + Mk5s, are still looking for a home.

I have suffered the TPE services post 2018, and that level of unreliability, which reached a peak at the end of 2022, should never be allowed to return. The current operation is better, timetables are sparse, but in general timetabled trains do run. Given the 4+ years of misery regular users suffered I would suggest 'baby steps' are the order of the day for some time.

Running 6tph on TPE north, even when the Dewsbury - Huddersfield improvements are finished seems like overkill, better to have 4tph with longer trains, as a turn up and go service between Leeds and Manchester worst wait is 15 mins, and that allows each of the eastern legs to be served hourly, which is probably about right, the western would probably be 2 tph Liverpool, 1 tph Airport and one terminating in Piccadilly

Running 6tph on TPE north, even when the Dewsbury - Huddersfield improvements are finished seems like overkill, better to have 4tph with longer trains, as a turn up and go service between Leeds and Manchester worst wait is 15 mins, and that allows each of the eastern legs to be served hourly, which is probably about right, the western would probably be 2 tph Liverpool, 1 tph Airport and one terminating in Piccadilly

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I agree the fast services should be 4ph only. As you say, 1ph each to Hull/Newc/Midds, plus one terminating at York, seems like a good balance. However, they should all go from Victoria at constant 15 min intervals. Having some start from Piccadilly loses the benefits of a 'turn up and go' service. 1 or 2ph could go to via Ordall Chord, depending on Castlefield capacity.

The Piccadilly trains via Guide Bridge can then be semi-fast services. These could go to Leeds but diverting them to Wakefield or Bradford may be better, to give more connectivity into South Manchester.

Manutd1999 said:

I agree the fast services should be 4ph only. As you say, 1ph each to Hull/Newc/Midds, plus one terminating at York, seems like a good balance. However, they should all go from Victoria at constant 15 min intervals. Having some start from Piccadilly loses the benefits of a 'turn up and go' service. 1 or 2ph could go to via Ordall Chord, depending on Castlefield capacity.

The Piccadilly trains via Guide Bridge can then be semi-fast services. These could go to Leeds but diverting them to Wakefield or Bradford may be better, to give more connectivity into South Manchester.

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So two from Liverpool, two from the Airport for the fasts? Or two Liverpool, one Airport, one Victoria?

The semi-fasts could do what's happening now; fast to Huddersfield, then stopping to Leeds or stopping to Huddersfield, then fast to Leeds. Not how that would fit in with the revived Huddersfield-Wakefield-Castleford(-York) service, plus any WYCA aspirations for a second Leeds-Huddersfield(-Marsden) stopper.

So two from Liverpool, two from the Airport for the fasts? Or two Liverpool, one Airport, one Victoria?

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Ideally two from the Airport, but if Castlefield is an issue then one could terminate at Victoria.

The semi-fasts could do what's happening now; fast to Huddersfield, then stopping to Leeds or stopping to Huddersfield, then fast to Leeds. Not how that would fit in with the revived Huddersfield-Wakefield-Castleford(-York) service, plus any WYCA aspirations for a second Leeds-Huddersfield(-Marsden) stopper.

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For reliability it would likely be preferable to split the stoppers at Huddersfield, with the semi-fast services providing some inter-connectivity. This would also allow the Leeds stoppers to be EMU-operated before the Stalybridge-Huddersfield section is electrified.

I would propose something like this:

2ph Bi-mode: Liverpool - Victoria - Hudds. - Leeds - York - 1ph continues to Newcastle
2ph Bi-mode: Airport - Victoria - Hudds. - Leeds - 1ph to Hull, 1ph to Middlesborough.

1ph Bi-mode: Piccadilly - Guide Bridge - Stalybridge - 3/4 stops - Hudds. - Mirfield - Dewsbury - Batley - Leeds
1ph Bi-mode: Piccadilly - Guide Bridge - Stalybridge - 3/4 stops - Hudds. - Bradford via Halifax

2ph EMU: Hudds. - all stops - Leeds

1ph DMU: Calder Valley - Mirfield - Dewsbury - Leeds


The 2x Piccadilly services share may have to share the stops between Stalybridge and Huddersfield, as an all-station stopper probably won't be able to fit into the 15 min gaps between fast services until that section is electrified.

Manutd1999 said:

Ideally two from the Airport, but if Castlefield is an issue then one could terminate at Victoria.

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Currently TPE is restricted to 1tph between Victoria and the Airport, due to the Manchester Task Force timetable cuts. According to a paper prepared for the last Rail North Committee meeting on 14 November 2023, Oxford Road station remodelling and Manchester Airport platform extensions form part of Configuration State 3 of the Manchester and North West Transformation Programme. This is scheduled for delivery in 2032 along with completion of TRU. These interventions might enable a second Victoria - Airport path to be reintroduced, but Network Rail is still developing its 2032 Concept Timetable 3, to test whether the planned infrastructure is adequate to accomodate the service changes needed to deliver the expected TRU outputs.

I believe the current timetable has paths available for 4tph fast between Victoria and Leeds; 2tph from Liverpool, 1tph from the Airport and 1tph starting from Victoria. TPE is not using all of these paths due to its December 2023 service cuts.

I wonder if those Stadler 755s would be ideal for TPE services. 100 mph with quick acceleration on diesel mode similar to further 185s.

In the long term post-TRU in 2032, is TPE really the best operator to be serving Saltburn (via Middlesbrough) or Scarborough if those branches are not yet electrified.