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Preferential treatment for rail staff

SCDR_WMR

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There's been a big clamp down within LNWR on who's in cabs and when. Even if they were a LNWR driver, if they had no genuine reason to be in the cab or in the train when ECS then the driver would be in deep trouble.

If you're asking for a favour, by all means ask. Just don't take offence if you get a 'No'.
 
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66701GBRF

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Fine to ask, but very poor show to take a refusal personally and post it on social media, that person being a driver should know better!
 

ComUtoR

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I can confidently say that I never got anything for free in my time working in food retail, and certainly never got a benefit from a company in the same industry that I didn’t work for. Expecting a free ride from another company just because you work on trains is no different to helping yourself to free food just because you work in a shop.

I used to work in a high street clothing store. We used to jump the queue into the Next sale because we worked next door. When I used to work in a high street beauty and health store, we would give discounts to many of the other people who worked locally. As a Driver, getting cheap(er) coffee and even McD's at the station is pretty much par for the course.
 

12LDA28C

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In my opinion it's this sort of behaviour which paints the industry in a bad light and perpetuates an attitude amongst staff that they are more important than the customers they are serving.

I'm hoping this is just an out of touch individual, though would be interested to understand how widespread this behaviour is.

Text from twitter extract:

"Trains are up the spout, there's an ECS LNRailway service Tring to Euston, won't let a fellow driver on.

Thought railway staff were meant to work together??

Turds."

I fail to see how you think this "perpetuates an attitude amongst staff that they are more important than the customers they are serving". For all you know this could have been a driver attempting to get to a location so that he could book on for duty and drive a train. No mention is made of the travelling public.

The individual tried his luck and failed, on another occasion they may have been successful. The error of judgement was in the moaning post on social media. End of story.
 

philthetube

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If he is a regular traveller in the area I suspect that he will have lost a lot of goodwill from all WMT staff in the area, these things come back to bite you.
 

Signal_Box

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So what has actually happened here? Is this a member of LNwR staff who hasn’t been let on, or someone else (LU judging by the handle?).

Whilst I’m sure this sort of thing used to happen many years ago, there’s a number of reasons why it’s nowadays a no-no. What might have been better, assuming this was during disruption, is if they could have got control to make the service into a passenger working, however this in itself would require a few obstacles to be overcome not least availability of a guard.

Whilst carrying staff where possible is a good thing if it means a subsequent delay or cancellation is avoided, even if on another operator, there are times when it’s not possible. Especially if the reason the train is empty is because there is a defect of some kind, the presence of additional staff can be quite a distraction. The last thing one wants, for example, is a train where isolations have been made to safety equipment and there’s an off-duty member of staff there making a fuss that they need to pick their kids up from school or whatever - and believe me this scenario happens!

One way or other, not sure what the value was in sounding off on social media.

Eric is GBRF driver, no one is permitted on a ecs move other than those diagramed.

This railway family business is a load of rubbish hasn’t been a family for 30+ years.
 

43066

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Eric is GBRF driver, no one is permitted on a ecs move other than those diagramed.

This railway family business is a load of rubbish hasn’t been a family for 30+ years.

In fairness staff generally do still help each other out (with the exception of London Underground gateline staff, a surprising number of whom seem to despise mainline railway staff for some reason).

A case in point, I was travelling from Leeds to London with my dad earlier. He had an advance ticket, the helpful and friendly LNER guard had no issue at all letting us onto the train ahead of his booked one. I found her on the platform, introduced myself and asked politely (that approach often also works for non staff members, of course!).
 

Twotwo

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The way I see it, things ain't always black and white. Not really sure why the driver refused, maybe their control are more strict. I'm glad my control has a but of common sense and when I asked if it was okay to take a passenger on my ecs they said its up to me and if I think it's safe to do so.
 

43066

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I asked if it was okay to take a passenger on my ecs they said its up to me and if I think it's safe to do so.

You’re DOO I think? It’s good to be helpful where you can, but be really careful with things like that. I’ve heard some nasty stories over the years.
 

yorksrob

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Railway staff have always given eachother a lift on the railway since time immemorial. They always will.

I don't see the fuss.
 

Joe Paxton

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You’re DOO I think? It’s good to be helpful where you can, but be really careful with things like that. I’ve heard some nasty stories over the years.

Could you perhaps elaborate?
 

43066

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Could you perhaps elaborate?

A few instances of people pulling an egress in the middle of nowhere, then turning nasty and (in one case I can think of) even attacking the driver. usually it’s been where someone has been accidentally left on an ECS working, taken into a depot etc.

Very difficult to get help if you’re all on your own on a train with someone who turns nasty.
 

northwichcat

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P.S not sure how this makes staff more important than pax.

If there's an ECS scheduled and it could carry passengers home at a time of disruption, in an ideal world the train operator would try to accommodate everyone who would benefit, whether they're rail staff or not and whoever they work for.

The tone of the X/twitter extract and the fact that it was placed on social media in the first place is suggestive of an individual who may not have presented as being an ideal companion for the journey. Also the driver of the empties would be right to protect himself/herself from possible repercussions from their management for permitting an unauthorised person to travel especially if something untoward was to occur or they were challenged/reported by a more senior colleague.

That tweet is worded in a similar way to a response I got from a work colleague once (not in the transport industry). Previously she had been somewhere on a work trip. I started a Teams chat asking the people who had been on a work trip a question about it. She replied but didn't really write anything that answered the question. A few weeks later she asked me to do something unrelated, which not only wasn't part of my job role, the head of department had said we don't do it unless there's a business critical issue. I replied, trying to establish what the business critical issue was, and got a response along the lines of that Tweet about not helping each other out. That annoyed me and that wasn't posted on social media for everyone to see.
 

43066

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If there's an ECS scheduled and it could carry passengers home at a time of disruption, in an ideal world the train operator would try to accommodate everyone who would benefit, whether they're rail staff or not and whoever they work for.

The only way passengers could be accomodated is if the ECS working is changed to a passenger working via control, letting the signaller know etc. That can sometimes be done, but often it cannot, for various operational and practical reasons, as noted above.

Staff can travel on ECS trains, and indeed are sometimes rostered to.
 

Zamracene749

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Maybe there has been some 'history' between the two drivers? Either the ecs driver being spiteful (rightly or wrongly, I don't care) or the GB driver trying to use it as a way to online bully the ecs driver? Sad either way.
 

SCDR_WMR

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Maybe there has been some 'history' between the two drivers? Either the ecs driver being spiteful (rightly or wrongly, I don't care) or the GB driver trying to use it as a way to online bully the ecs driver? Sad either way.
As has been stated, he doesn't work for the same TOC and being ECS he was never going to be allowed to be a passenger on it. It's not spiteful to only allow diagrammed train crew on ECS moves, that's LNWR's rules.
 

Llanigraham

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This railway family business is a load of rubbish hasn’t been a family for 30+ years.

Still a family in this area!
Even after 5 years retirement there are guards who offer a free trip and I was only a signaller
(I don't accept!!)
 

Mwanesh

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Don't see the problem there. If they worked for the same company fair enough. He comes out as entitled.
 

Zamracene749

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As has been stated, he doesn't work for the same TOC and being ECS he was never going to be allowed to be a passenger on it. It's not spiteful to only allow diagrammed train crew on ECS moves, that's LNWR's rules.
Thanks, how stupid of me. I was under the impression that unofficially, train crew do allow other other TOC train crew to travel on light moves on a regular basis.
 

Efini92

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Thanks, how stupid of me. I was under the impression that unofficially, train crew do allow other other TOC train crew to travel on light moves on a regular basis.
Depends on the individuals, I’ve no problem in taking train crew on empties. But if i asked and was told no, it’s just one of those things.
 

moonarrow458

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The only way passengers could be accomodated is if the ECS working is changed to a passenger working via control, letting the signaller know etc. That can sometimes be done, but often it cannot, for various operational and practical reasons, as noted above.

Staff can travel on ECS trains, and indeed are sometimes rostered to.
If staff can travel on ECS trains, whereby i assume staff implies staff of the same TOC, then what is the difference between an ECS and a staff train?

Im thinking of the following trains:



This next ones are slightly different as instead of a class 2 headcode it uses a class 5 Headcode but are labled as ECS and Staff



So for these examples who exactly is permitted onboard? Would the class 2 designated "staff trains" to/from Moorgate and the 0412 KGX to Letchworth, be permitted to carry any staff regardless of TOC, would they even be able to carry passengers and are they more like unadvertised services that only staff know about?

And then the latter 3 examples that are designated Class 5; the Selhurst to Balham ECS and staff and the sunday morning Heathrow express ECS and Staff, who is permitted aboard these in terms of staff? All railway staff or just the relevant TOC staff and as such how do these differ from the regular class 5 ECS in terms of who is allowed onboard?
 

357

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So for these examples who exactly is permitted onboard?
It varies from toc to toc. In my experience any staff of that company with permission of the driver.

There is also an early morning 3 headcode train from Pitsea to Shoeburyness. That is a staff train with doors released at each station, but unadvertised on CIS.
 

Deepgreen

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Returning to the original question - think it’s perfectly legitimate for “staff” to receive preferential treatment provided that a) it doesn’t compromise safety etc and b) providing that treatment doesn’t leave the general public in a worse position than they would otherwise have been.
Ie letting a member of staff travel on ecs ok (though I accept all the arguments above why it might be a no no for other reasons) - but letting on off-duty member of staff “jump the queue” when there’s controlled access to trains after an event - no.
If no-one else (passengers) suffer then it's not "preferential", by definition.
 

moonarrow458

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There is also an early morning 3 headcode train from Pitsea to Shoeburyness. That is a staff train with doors released at each station, but unadvertised on CIS.
I've had a look and that train is described as "parcels" on RTT, does it actually carry parcels or is it misclassification of what youve said is a staff train?

 

bramling

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In fairness staff generally do still help each other out (with the exception of London Underground gateline staff, a surprising number of whom seem to despise mainline railway staff for some reason).

I suspect that’s partly because they will take the view mainline staff = driver. There has become quite a tidemark between train staff and station staff on LU, hence it’s probably not to be unexpected that this carries over to mainline staff as well. Sad, but there we go.

I daresay some LU staff will have encountered the odd arsey mainline guard at some point as well, however that’s probably less likely to be the reason in the vast majority of cases.
 

al78

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I used to work in a high street clothing store. We used to jump the queue into the Next sale because we worked next door. When I used to work in a high street beauty and health store, we would give discounts to many of the other people who worked locally. As a Driver, getting cheap(er) coffee and even McD's at the station is pretty much par for the course.
There is a difference between being offered a perk due to come connection and gratefully accepting, and asking for a favour then throwing toys out of the pram upon refusal because you felt entitled to it. Attitude matters.
 

Horizon22

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A few instances of people pulling an egress in the middle of nowhere, then turning nasty and (in one case I can think of) even attacking the driver. usually it’s been where someone has been accidentally left on an ECS working, taken into a depot etc.

Very difficult to get help if you’re all on your own on a train with someone who turns nasty.

That’s a different story though with passengers being left on ECS moves, which is a failure of the train clearance process at some stage.
 

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