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Settle junction up signals - info please

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Ken H

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At settle Jct going south, first you come 2 a colour light distant. one on each branch. Then a semaphore stop signal on each branch. There is the pointowork where the barnches actually join, then there is a semaphore stop signal. I imagine this is designated the up home. Yiou can see the top of the post from the road but not the signal flag
Then you pass the signal box, and clearly visible from the A65 road there is a 3 position colour light signal. I ahve only ever seen this showing green or red. It carries plate SJ11. Here is is. https://maps.app.goo.gl/9aqisyV9179iAVJHA

Before you get to Long Preston there is a 2 colour light but I dont know what is shows. Not 100% sure its on the up line.

So why is SJ11 3 position?
1. slot on a distant signal controlled by Hellifield.
2. It acts as a distant for Hellifield home signal
3. Left over 3 position signal and the middle lens has no bulb in.

Its 3 miles 12 chains from Settle Jct to Hellifield.
 
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Tomnick

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It acts as a distant for SJ12, the intermediate block home signal visible here:

maps.app.goo.gl

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
maps.app.goo.gl maps.app.goo.gl
 
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lyndhurst25

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Off topic, but I once encountered a “senior” motorist stopped on the A65 by signal SJ11 showing a red aspect, thinking that it was a traffic light.
 
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Ken H

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lyndhurst25 said:
Off topic, but I once encountered a “senior” motorist stopped on the A65 by signal SJ11 showing a red aspect, thinking that it was a traffic light.
Click to expand...
Easily done, in bad weather. The thought goes through your head, 'Is that a temporary traffic light or the signal?
 
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Ken H

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Tomnick said:
It acts as a distant for SJ12, the intermediate block home signal visible here:

maps.app.goo.gl

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
maps.app.goo.gl maps.app.goo.gl
Click to expand...
Thanks. That makes it clear. The fact i have never seen it showing yellow suggests the IB isnt used much.
 
30907

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Ken H said:
Thanks. That makes it clear. The fact i have never seen it showing yellow suggests the IB isnt used much.
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Pedantically, SJ12 will be used all the time, and will show red for maybe 4min after each train, but SJ11 will only show yellow if the road has been cleared for a second train to follow from Settle Jn. That might happen if you had one off each route very close together, but I'm not surprised you've never seen it :)
 
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Lucy1501

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If it’s of any help, here’s my photo of the box diagram as of 2022.
 

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Ken H

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Lucy1501 said:
If it’s of any help, here’s my photo of the box diagram as of 2022.
Click to expand...
Thats awesome. Thank you so much

One question for everyone. The signals marked TPWS fitted dont have the lozenge plates for what I call Rule 55. Is that general?
 
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Ken H

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BTW. They are replacing SJ 4. The old one was supported with bracing. But there is a new signal post. I'll have a look last time I pass in daylight.
 
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Tomnick

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30907 said:
Pedantically, SJ12 will be used all the time, and will show red for maybe 4min after each train, but SJ11 will only show yellow if the road has been cleared for a second train to follow from Settle Jn. That might happen if you had one off each route very close together, but I'm not surprised you've never seen it :)
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Also pedantically, as I believe @Railsigns Is suggesting, SJ12 will be red for as long as the time until the following train is offered to Hellifield. You're otherwise right, though, you'd only normally see it (other than very briefly as the signals are cleared) if there's one waiting to come off one route right behind one from the other.

(Also assuming that they're not in the habit of waiting until a train's passing the box before offering it on, which would be very ambitious here!)
 
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Lucy1501

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Ken H said:
One question for everyone. The signals marked TPWS fitted dont have the lozenge plates for what I call Rule 55. Is that general?
Click to expand...
TPWS has nothing to do with having the white diamond signs. Each signal is risk assessed and TPWS provided as neccessary, its merely a coincidence that they are the only ones that have them. Note SJ14, the down branch starting, doesn't have a diamond or TPWS.

GardenRail said:
Love the poor quality amendment to the diagram.....
Click to expand...
And the whole idea for tiled diagrams was that you could easily pop one out and put a new one in in less than a minute! It appears the budget is only given for larger infastructure works, e.g. the removal of the down sidings, or the ground frames being installed. I imagine the paper addition will be gone when the new Horton ground frame is added.


Interestingly, Settle Junction has two track circuit sections inside another axle counter section - local staff believe it to be the only example. Inside SSA (X), they were installed for locking with the ground frame. There's also what is belived to be the longest block section in the country between Carnforth Station Junction and Settle Junction.
 
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Lucy1501 said:
Interestingly, Settle Junction has two track circuit sections inside another axle counter section - local staff believe it to be the only example.
Click to expand...
It's far from the only example. I know of long sections with axle counter train detection spanning local track circuits provided for automatic level crossings.
 
ComUtoR

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Ken H said:
The signals marked TPWS fitted dont have the lozenge plates for what I call Rule 55. Is that general?
Click to expand...

Can you confirm or describe what you call 'lozenge' plates please. I can't quite figure it out from the diagram or via Rule 55.

Cheers in advance.
 
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ComUtoR said:
Can you confirm or describe what you call 'lozenge' plates please. I can't quite figure it out from the diagram or via Rule 55.
Click to expand...
What are normally called diamond signs. As per normal practice, the stop signals provided with telephones don't have them.
 
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Ken H

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ComUtoR said:
Can you confirm or describe what you call 'lozenge' plates please. I can't quite figure it out from the diagram or via Rule 55.

Cheers in advance.
Click to expand...
Rule 55 wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_55#:~:text=It required that, if a,the presence of the train

I admit rule 55 is an old name. It became rule K5. But I dont know what rule number it is today

Image of signal with exemption plate. Sorry i misnamed it as lozenge when I should have said diamond.

 
ComUtoR

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Railsigns said:
What are normally called diamond signs. As per normal practice, the stop signals provided with telephones don't have them.
Click to expand...

Ken H said:
Rule 55 wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_55#:~:text=It required that, if a,the presence of the train

I admit rule 55 is an old name. It became rule K5. But I dont know what rule number it is today

Image of signal with exemption plate. Sorry i misnamed it as lozenge when I should have said diamond.

Click to expand...

Appreciate the responses.

FYI. I know them simply as being track circuited and ours are more diamond shaped as per the signalling diagram. We have the more 'rectangular diamonds' on our patch that are more specific to not having a telephone. I couldn't make 2+2=42.

As for 'Lozenge' I was looking at the IBH signal and thinking that was your lozenge as it was the only oval style symbol I could see.

Ta both.
 
ComUtoR

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Railsigns said:
Throat lozenges (note: lozenges, not 'lozengers') are apparently so-named because they were originally diamond shaped.
Click to expand...

That's !"$£!" awesome !

However, we need to stop now as we drift way way off topic and my other tab is deep into the rabbit hole.. I found 'Frog in the throat lozenges' from 1906.

Com.
 
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Ken H

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Railsigns said:
The word lozenge actually means a diamond shape.
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The image I posted a link to in post 18 above has had the points at the top and botton chopped off so it isnt a true diamond. Which is why i wrongly called it a lozenge.
 
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Lucy1501 said:
And the whole idea for tiled diagrams was that you could easily pop one out and put a new one in in less than a minute! It appears the budget is only given for larger infastructure works, e.g. the removal of the down sidings, or the ground frames being installed. I imagine the paper addition will be gone when the new Horton ground frame is added.
Click to expand...
Network Rail are just being cheap.

Lucy1501 said:
Interestingly, Settle Junction has two track circuit sections inside another axle counter section - local staff believe it to be the only example. Inside SSA (X), they were installed for locking with the ground frame. There's also what is belived to be the longest block section in the country between Carnforth Station Junction and Settle Junction.
Click to expand...

Railsigns said:
It's far from the only example. I know of long sections with axle counter train detection spanning local track circuits provided for automatic level crossings.
Click to expand...

Before TVSC took over control of the area, there were two track circuits at Chipping Sodbury within their respective axle counter sections. They were needed to full-fill the conditions for some of the signal routes into the loop or sidings.
 
Annetts key

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Ken H said:
Maybe they have been on order for some years. Or someone forgot to order them.
Click to expand...
Not the first time that the correct panel pieces or diagram tiles/mosaics have not been provided. I don't know the ins and outs of why. All I know is that a temporary arrangement gets done. If the signaller is lucky, someday, someone will return to do a proper job. Otherwise the temporary arrangement could be in place for years and years. Network Rail is much worse for this compared to BR. BR did make mistakes, but at least they did try to correct as many as possible within weeks.
 
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Ken H

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RailwayRookie said:
This is Regulation 1.1 in module S4 of the current rule book.
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Thanks

New semaphone stop signal by the Courtyard shopping place, I think SJ 4. Replaces ther one that was held up with bracing. Its fitted with a white sighting plate, retangular, behind the signal arm.

Am I supposed to leave a space between the letters and the number, i.e is it SJ 4 or SJ4?
 
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RailwayRookie

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Ken H said:
Am I supposed to leave a space between the letters and the number, i.e is it SJ 4 or SJ4?
Click to expand...

Generally on a signals number plates it will be the Letters on the top line and the the number below.

Someone may correct this if I'm wrong but I dont think there's a set rule for writing them. Most signallers will omit the space when writing on forms etc. So in your example it would be SJ4.

You will also find if referencing a post with multiple signals attached, most will drop the identifying letters are also dropped from the subsequent signals, for example:

SJ4/5 when referring to signals SJ4 & SJ5 on the same post.
 
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