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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

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Snow1964

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Peter Sarf said:
Twenty drivers a month (well four weeks) seems like agony. That's 77 fortnights (769 / 10 rounded up) or 154 weeks (77 x 2), that's almost three years (nearly 156 weeks).
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I was thinking of worst case scenario, hopefully lot shorter than that.

However as there is effectively 75 trains (30 are half sets), the maths doesn't look good there either. Roughly speaking SWR operates 125 hours of 168 hour week (negligible overnight services). Allowing for holidays etc, 4 drivers doing 30-35 hours covers 125 hours. Actually wouldn't diagram all 75, probably nearer 67 in service.

67 trains x 4 drivers = 268 drivers needed, so suggests will be 2.7 drivers on each train if need to train up 769 drivers. I wonder if it 769 drivers across all SWR (and have used wrong figure) whereas would be about half that for just suburban drivers.
 
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Peter Sarf

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Snow1964 said:
I was thinking of worst case scenario, hopefully lot shorter than that.

However as there is effectively 75 trains (30 are half sets), the maths doesn't look good there either. Roughly speaking SWR operates 125 hours of 168 hour week (negligible overnight services). Allowing for holidays etc, 4 drivers doing 30-35 hours covers 125 hours

75 trains x 4 drivers = 300 drivers needed, so suggests will be 2.5 drivers on each train if need to train up 769 drivers. I wonder if it 769 drivers across all SWR (and have used wrong figure) whereas would be about half that for just suburban drivers.
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My guess is 769 drivers that need to learn 701s but many of them also drive other units/traction than 701s. So a link of 150 drivers might only use 1/3rd at any one time on 701s with the rest driving 440s and/or 450s..
 
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Goldfish62

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Snow1964 said:
I was thinking of worst case scenario, hopefully lot shorter than that.

However as there is effectively 75 trains (30 are half sets), the maths doesn't look good there either. Roughly speaking SWR operates 125 hours of 168 hour week (negligible overnight services). Allowing for holidays etc, 4 drivers doing 30-35 hours covers 125 hours. Actually wouldn't diagram all 75, probably nearer 67 in service.

67 trains x 4 drivers = 268 drivers needed, so suggests will be 2.7 drivers on each train if need to train up 769 drivers. I wonder if it 769 drivers across all SWR (and have used wrong figure) whereas would be about half that for just suburban drivers.
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Looking at other operators and large scale introductions 18 months sounds completely reasonable to me.

The 14 months quoted for the initial introduction timescale was undoubtedly as unrealistic as all the other commitments made at the time of First/MTR's bid.
 
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WrongRoad

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Goldfish62 said:
According to that SWR brief that was shared on a post on this thread the shadow running services will be used for staff training, so that's presumably what's happening.


At least the mainstream media is now on to it.

I can't agree that they're "still nowhere near a proper introduction into service". Surely that'll be very soon now, probably in the Spring.
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Won’t be a full introduction for the May timetable.
 
WarrenTManager

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Deepgreen said:
The four-plus years saga of the 701s is in the news again, with the costs of the delays being withheld for "commercial" reasons...!

www.bbc.co.uk

Cost of delayed Arterio train fleet withheld by government

Transport officials refuse to reveal the cost of trains that are more than four years overdue.
www.bbc.co.uk

The government has refused to reveal the cost to the taxpayer of the delayed introduction of a new fleet of trains.
The Class 701 Arterio trains should have entered service with South Western Railway (SWR) in 2019.
However, the first passenger service ran between London Waterloo and Windsor in January.
The Department for Transport (DfT) said answering the BBC's Freedom of Information (FOI) request could "prejudice commercial interests".
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Given the Government is likely to be the train procurer for a good while and tenders in the offing for other stock, why would they want to disclose liquidated damage amounts, payment phases and milestones?

If its money down the tubes, I'm more bothered about COVID write offs, furlough fraud and PPE Medpro and such like.
 
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wickham

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SEtrains asks how many 701s remain to be built (post 8007): Well, I am pretty sure that they have ALL been built for some time now, it is the fitting out and testing that takes the time. There are also some unfinished units stored at Worksop that need to be finished off - this might be undertaken at Derby or elsewhere.
 
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Deepgreen

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swt_passenger said:
This is quite a fast moving thread and the BBC link was already posted this morning in #8000
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Apologies - deleted.

WarrenTManager said:
Given the Government is likely to be the train procurer for a good while and tenders in the offing for other stock, why would they want to disclose liquidated damage amounts, payment phases and milestones?

If its money down the tubes, I'm more bothered about COVID write offs, furlough fraud and PPE Medpro and such like.
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Of course they wouldn't WANT to, but they should.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Snow1964 said:
Government has blocked a BBC request for cost of how much money was being paid to Rock Rail, the owner of the trains that are not carrying any passengers, as well as asking for the cost of storing unused trains. BBC also inquired about the cost of retaining and maintaining other rolling stock where the leases have been extended to cover the absence of the new trains.



www.bbc.co.uk

Cost of delayed Arterio train fleet withheld by government

Transport officials refuse to reveal the cost of trains that are more than four years overdue.
www.bbc.co.uk

Apparently 71 of 90 units now accepted, does anyone have a list of 19 not yet accepted. I know it includes some early units which needed rework
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Good to see the mainstream media getting involved but why have none of the railway press been more investigative over what has gone on here. they moan at the govt interreference but this is one example where the industry is racking up huge costs and its no wonder DafT feel compelled to keep the hand firmly on the tiller.
 
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infobleep

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SWT_USER said:
Not surprising, it must be very embarrassing.

71 out of 90 and still nowhere near a proper introduction in to service. Why have they been accepted in that case? I guess a(nother) poorly negotiated contract.
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Still at least SWR expects they will all be in service in up to 18 months.

If it is 18 months, I can't believe that Guildford won't see one within the next year, unless it will be the last 8 months they make it to Guildford.

Deepgreen said:
Apologies - deleted.


Of course they wouldn't WANT to, but they should.
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The BBC could contact the ICO to review the decision, after they have asked thr DfT to review their decision.

Of course, may be the BBC have moved on to something else or they published this but are doing some of the above.

I once put in an FOI to BBC News, unaware news and drama were exempt. They of course refused it.
 
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paulprentice

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Nicholas Lewis said:
Good to see the mainstream media getting involved but why have none of the railway press been more investigative over what has gone on here. they moan at the govt interreference but this is one example where the industry is racking up huge costs and its no wonder DafT feel compelled to keep the hand firmly on the tiller.
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The mainstream media is the railway press in this instance - Paul Clifton writes for RAIL.
 
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norbitonflyer

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infobleep said:
Still at least SWR expects they will all be in service in up to 18 months.

If it is 18 months, I can't believe that Guildford won't see one within the next year, unless it will be the last 8 months they make it to Guildford.
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Accordibng to post 7813 above, the planned order of phasing in is

1. Windsor
2. Weybridge / Hounslow loop
3. Kingston loop / Shepperton
4. Reading / Ascot - Farnham
5. Hampton Court / Chessington / Dorking
6. Woking / Guildford

Assuming each phase takes 3 months, and that Phase 1 starts next month (March), we are looking at June next year for Guildford to see any. (Maybe two months earlier if the untimetabled services now running to Windsor count)
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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paulprentice said:
The mainstream media is the railway press in this instance - Paul Clifton writes for RAIL.
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OK not aware that Mr Clifton contributed to Rail and not a magazine I've taken for sometime. My general gripe remains that the railway press don't like to get into the nitty gritty these days of key issues facing the industry that are too negative. The class 701 introduction has been an industry wide issue so would have merited an article or an editorial tackling the issues surrounding why it take so long to introduce new rolling stock and expose the costs that are clearly associated with the delays. The 8026 (and counting) responses on this thread contains more insight, some of it true some of it false, than I've seen from railway journalists. Anyhow as i say good to see a journalist trying to open the lid.
 
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Snow1964

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Nicholas Lewis said:
Good to see the mainstream media getting involved but why have none of the railway press been more investigative over what has gone on here. they moan at the govt interreference but this is one example where the industry is racking up huge costs and its no wonder DafT feel compelled to keep the hand firmly on the tiller.
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Some of the figures will eventually come out anyway.

Rock Rail South West has to publish audited accounts, so it's income and compensation from Bombardier/Alstom will be clear.

No doubt historians in 30 years time will get to see the DfT papers in Kew archives.

What might be stopping DfT is not the amount, but did they sanction all these alternatives without any real controls on costs or timescale
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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It also impacts the situation at Derby if Alstom can't get paid.
The Rail piece says a large number of units have been "accepted" by SWR which to my mind means they have been paid for and are on lease ("minister liable" in gov-speak).
Might not reflect the true situation though.
 
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Stephen42

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LNW-GW Joint said:
It also impacts the situation at Derby if Alstom can't get paid.
The Rail piece says a large number of units have been "accepted" by SWR which to my mind means they have been paid for and are on lease ("minister liable" in gov-speak).
Might not reflect the true situation though.
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The impacts to Alstom were much bigger than to SWR until at least last year. In the 4 years of Rock Rail accounts up until December 2022, while SWR has paid £12.3m to Rock Rail in lease revenue, the liquidated damages and project management fees from Rock Rail over the same period is £183.1m. I'd expect the project management fees would be a few million at most and might not have been originally planned anyway.

Most units have been accepted now, SWR in their stakeholder report late last year said 55 units and since then charges have appeared for several more. The critical path seems to be staff training rather than having units ready for them to drive.
 
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Goldfish62

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Stephen42 said:
The critical path seems to be staff training rather than having units ready for them to drive.
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Agreed. As Ian Walmsley somewhat tongue in cheek points out in the current issue of Modern Railways, SWR appears to have run out of excuses not to introduce the trains, but then goes on to suggest that training may take so long that those trained initially may need to be refreshed on the units, thus creating a self-perpetuating cycle delaying introduction indefinitely. 8-)
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Stephen42 said:
The impacts to Alstom were much bigger than to SWR until at least last year. In the 4 years of Rock Rail accounts up until December 2022, while SWR has paid £12.3m to Rock Rail in lease revenue, the liquidated damages and project management fees from Rock Rail over the same period is £183.1m. I'd expect the project management fees would be a few million at most and might not have been originally planned anyway.

Most units have been accepted now, SWR in their stakeholder report late last year said 55 units and since then charges have appeared for several more. The critical path seems to be staff training rather than having units ready for them to drive.
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The main impacts were to Bombardier and im sure Alstoms purchase price would have taken into consideration the risks they faced on various contracts but for sure even Alstom have been burnt by this contract. What we don't know is how much of that 183m has found its way to First MTR South Western Ltd who hold the leasing arrangement with Rock Rail South Western Ltd although examination of Rock Rail South Western accounts suggest very little if any. Coming at it from another angle if you look at the over 25k monthly payments that DfT release erratically the payments to First MTR South Western have gone up considerably this year although its impossible to know why as its one line entry and may of course reflect adjustments from strike days etc.
What you can see from last SWR a/cs is rolling stock leasing charges were 106m y/e 2022 so post clearout of 442/456's but going forward if the 701's are accepted leasing charges will be going up despite the units being stored. Then you have the additional costs for driver/guard training to add in so SWR could be costing DfT 40-50m extra for next couple of years.

Couple of other points is lease is shown as August 2024 with an 11 railway period extension which takes it round to the May 25 First SWR NRC expiry date although its possible both those have changed but two burning platforms here although i suspect DafT will just extend if nothing more to box Labour in.
 
43066

43066

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Goldfish62 said:
Agreed. As Ian Walmsley somewhat tongue in cheek points out in the current issue of Modern Railways, SWR appears to have run out of excuses not to introduce the trains, but then goes on to suggest that training may take so long that those trained initially may need to be refreshed on the units, thus creating a self-perpetuating cycle delaying introduction indefinitely. 8-)
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If the timescales are as long as suggested I could see that happening.
 
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DMckduck97

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Snow1964 said:
It actually states 769 drivers will be trained.

If allow generous 2 weeks and say 5 drivers each morning/lunch and 5 drivers each afternoon/evening then only doing 20 drivers a month. Athough if a driver is familiar with 707s do they really need 2 weeks for type conversion.

What I can't fathom is originally introduction was October 2019 to early December 2020 (by timetable change date), 14 months, so why would full introduction now be slowed down and take longer than 14 months, as now suggests going to drag it out over 18 months.
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They will need 2 weeks most likely because of the added door control they will be in charge of and dispatch/pti experience and training.

They will probably have to stop at a specific amount of stations under DCO before being signed off on them, 8 days might be best case scenario
 
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Goldfish62

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OneTrackMinded said:
Does anyone know why the 701s appear to have worse ride quality than the other aventras?
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Having travelled regularly on Aventras for several years now they seem identical to all the others (I haven't been on a 730).

None have a particularly smooth ride, but then that's the same of all recent new trains.
 
8

800001

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OneTrackMinded said:
Does anyone know why the 701s appear to have worse ride quality than the other aventras?
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When I rode them to and from Windsor I didn’t think they were any worse than any of the 710/720 etc. actually thought it was quite an ok ride.
 
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