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Class 810 - The Right Fit For EMR?

Jozhua

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I've seen a lot of debate in the main Class 810 introduction thread, so creating this as a friendly space for debate around the merits of the 810 including but not limited to...
-Seats
-Capacity
-Possibility of keeping 222 fleet to supplement capacity?

Personally, I'd prefer the whole fleet be 10 car walk through trains with enough spare units to cover possible contingencies, unless a few 222s are to be kept around.

Seats, I don't really have too many opinions on, other than that they will hopefully be a step above what's currently in place with LNER.

Probably important to get this fleet right given the difficulties often seen in expanding fleets once in place and the lack of HS2 serving East Mids/South Yorks trips anytime soon...
 
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JonathanH

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Personally, I'd prefer the whole fleet be 10 car walk through trains with enough spare units to cover possible contingencies, unless a few 222s are to be kept around.
Finding funding for that sort of fleet would be somewhat challenging.
 

Ethan1852

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Personally, I'd prefer the whole fleet be 10 car walk through trains with enough spare units to cover possible contingencies, unless a few 222s are to be kept around.

I do think that the Class 810's should be longer. I never have understood there thinking behind ordering 5 car units.
 

hexagon789

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I do think that the Class 810's should be longer. I never have understood there thinking behind ordering 5 car units.
Because 2×5 is the maximum St Pancras can fit, and only with nonstandard body lengths (compared to other 80x series types).

Remember they do have slightly more Standard Class seats than even the 7-car 222s do.
 

JonathanH

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I do think that the Class 810's should be longer. I never have understood there thinking behind ordering 5 car units.
It has been explained in other threads so often that 2 5-car units fit at St Pancras, and use the full length of the platform.

Also, 5 car units are sufficient for many EMR services at quieter times of day.
 

jharris@furrer

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It looks like there are a number of evolutionary improvements in the Aurora fleet over their IEP sisters. One being 24m long carriages instead of 26m means that the end of each carriage isn't as tapered so that the sliding doors can slide towards the gangway so the seats nearest the doors have windows.

I think these have one transformer instead of 2 which was completely unnecessary on the IEP trains.

Softer seats as others have mentioned and more importantly wider seats than what they are replacing as the class 222s have profiles for tilting and hence are narrower inside.

I'm looking forward to going on one
 

43074

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Remember they do have slightly more Standard Class seats than even the 7-car 222s do.
Although that's not saying much as an EMR 4-car 158 has more standard class seats than a 222 (and only 50 fewer seats across 3 fewer coaches if you include the excessive first class on the 7-car units!)

The internal layout of the 22x units makes them really poor from a capacity point of view, nevermind everything else that is wrong with that family of units.

Also, 5 car units are sufficient for many EMR services at quieter times of day.
In my experience standing is a fairly common occurrence on most 5-car EMR intercity services, really 25 or so 8-car units would have been a better fit than 33 5-cars. When you consider there's also a reasonable flow from both Nottingham and Sheffield to London via the East Coast Main Line (the fares are generally better and there's little difference from a journey time point of view) EMR would have no difficulty filling seats on longer trains throughout the day, and it would save traincrew by no longer having to provide 2 Train Managers on each 10-car set or faffing about attaching and detaching at St Pancras.
 
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cactustwirly

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It has been explained in other threads so often that 2 5-car units fit at St Pancras, and use the full length of the platform.

Also, 5 car units are sufficient for many EMR services at quieter times of day.
Which services are these?
The 5 cars are just as "sufficient" as single voyagers on XC except for the extremities of the day
 

STINT47

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They can order all the units that they want but will they actually run double units if they are available?

Today they're are only two services an hour from St Pancras to Leicester due to engineering work. The train I'm on is a single 5 car unit with people standing in every vestibule and down the aisles. Given that the normally timetable is four trains an hour why was has one of the units not running been added to my train to strengthen it?

The DFT wants to save money and when this is combined with a lackluster company like EMR who show no intrest beyond doing the minimum to get their management fee it's a perfect combination for short formed, poorly maintained and dirty trains. I cannot see a new fleet changing this.
 

D365

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I think these have one transformer instead of 2 which was completely unnecessary on the IEP trains.
Is that not because the pantographs on other Class 80x are located on each driving vehicle?
 

EIKN

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You raise some good points, but from some special rail magazine related ' books' from the series modern locomotives illustrated, and also the UK and NI Rolling stock review books, since the Aurora first appeared in the latter, when you compare the length of each ' coach ' on the 810 to a mark3 or 4 coach I believe they are slightly longer .
So in a way nearer a HST 6 car set.

Also regards the seats a d interior, I had read a special magazine article on the EMR fleet current and upcoming , and it detailed the extension consultation with the public and the operator alike, a lot of work has gone into a seat design that is said to mimic the much loved HST/Mark3 and other coach designs using the ' IC7' design, so the ones on. The 810 are supposed to have been modled on that design, although mainly in appearance.
However much work has gone into seat comfort , padding and a covering that will stand up to the heavy usage , where especially the GWR sets had to have all their seats recovered already and even that is still not working as it again is wearing out with cushions collapsing , interiors falling apart , plastics getting very dirty no matter how much cleaning is done , also the garish lighting on both GWR and Lner sets , and the latter having the same issues as her with wear and tear. To the point it said that there is a plan already to totally refurbish those units and hopefully introduce a buffet car on GWR sets.

Anyway the 810's they learnt from the failings of the others , and so much work has also gone Into 810 interiors , better softer lighting , toned down colours , more like older style intercity which was loved by those using the trains , probably similar from one photomontage, if how they will look, to the ex grand central sets ( Mark4's ) that TFW have now got

So yes the 810's will be a lot different and yes they will have buffet cars and a trolley as well.
Although quite how they will squeeze this into a 5 car unit remains to be seen.
But the images I saw, it's like chalk and cheese between the older sets . They also have a redesigned front end , not too disimilar to the HS2, javelin class 395's .
A lot of work has gone on to give people a better travel experience.
Although they would have been better to do as a anti did and buy 7 car sets .
And yes it may be prudent at least for a while until any bugs are ironed out , to keep some class 222's, which for all their issues are still better than the 220/221 voyagers .
Although clearly those units must be pretty ropey for them to be replacing units that are half the age of the HST sets that served long distance running .
Also the new operator ' grand Union is already slated to take the class 222's for their London - Camarthen route , starting later this year or early next, also their Stirling to London services too.
But both have shown photo montages of what look to be a Hitachi IET type set .
So I'd guess the 222's are a stop gap which was pretty much what that operator stated , until they can get new Bimode or Tri mode sets.
As for the 222's they are still fairly recent so afwte the new operator is done with them , they may be rescued anywhere from Chiltern to Scotrail , maybe even Northern rail, where plans to amalgamate with TPE which has already put in orders or tenders for a fleet of bimodes to replace the 185's .
Although that is a strange situation, that they had brand new trains but instead of changing locos have just abandoned sets that cost a huge amount of money .
So let's hope the these new class 810's are being built as per their photo montage and the mockup which as I said was similar in terms of lighting. And colour palette to the Grand central mark4's.
And the 810's look very smart in the purple livery and seeing them on test they look fantastic..much better than the 222's .
So really we will just have to wait and see when they come into service , if they live up to all the hype over all the modifications made to them compared to the other 800 series units .
 

STINT47

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the point it said that there is a plan already to totally refurbish those units and hopefully introduce a buffet car on GWR sets.

I can see the GWR and LNER sets getting a full refurbishment before EMR does any work on their fleets
 

JonathanH

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Which services are these?
The 5 cars are just as "sufficient" as single voyagers on XC except for the extremities of the day
That seems to be agreement that at the extremities of the day a 5-car unit is sufficient, which is what I said. I have never had to stand on late trains heading south into St Pancras formed of 5-car units, and typically find there to be many seats available. Do EMR have access to enough stabling points at the London end to have longer trains stabled overnight?

Are you saying that people are standing on EMR services from Leicester to London throughout the day, other than in the evening, despite there being four trains an hour?
 

Helvellyn

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EMR were originally going to keep the four 180s alongside their 33 810s, but the 180s went off lease and nothing has been mentioned about retaining any diesel capacity. So unless EMR retain the four seven car units (suitably reconfigured with less First Class) they will have less units than envisioned. The risk is that leisure traffic continues to go and 33 units will be a bit tight, but keeping a micro-fleet is hardly ideal as well. However, getting say another 3 810s ordered with the current Treasury/DfT control is probably unlikely.
 

Jozhua

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Of course, from the funding perspective, this is a common story on UK rail. The 195s for Northern which were overcrowded on day one, the 185s for TPE which had both less carriages and a reduction in fleet size, despite significant growth in ridership on those routes.

A big part of the issue I suspect is the extra cost of diesel trains, both from a purchase and ongoing maintenance/fuel cost point of view. The great thing with wires is even suburban style EMUs such as the class 350 or 360 can run some fast intercity services. Heck, the 319 can do 100mph!
 

QSK19

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I can see the GWR and LNER sets getting a full refurbishment before EMR does any work on their fleets
Yep, although I think the DfT is the one at fault here - EMR don’t have any real influence when it comes to refurbishment or maintenance spend. I genuinely believe that EMR has put an awful lot of effort into refurbishment proposals for the 170s and 360s; however the DfT refuse to open their wallet. Don’t be surprised if the 810s have nothing done to them for 20+ years.
 

EIKN

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According to rail magazines three in the past two months while reporting on other operators fleet replacements, EMR was mentioned as having options for multiple new units , that or they will need to retain some 222's that could spoil at least 3 new open access operator plans .
As some are relying on cascaded 222's either long term or until they took canngonto Hitachi for the 810 variant ( Grand union's new Welsh service , which willnjow include an addition open access route ( just announced) Cardiff to Edinburgh.
Meaning there may end up being a shortage of rolling stock .
 

43096

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EMR were originally going to keep the four 180s alongside their 33 810s, but the 180s went off lease and nothing has been mentioned about retaining any diesel capacity. So unless EMR retain the four seven car units (suitably reconfigured with less First Class) they will have less units than envisioned. The risk is that leisure traffic continues to go and 33 units will be a bit tight, but keeping a micro-fleet is hardly ideal as well. However, getting say another 3 810s ordered with the current Treasury/DfT control is probably unlikely.
No. Originally EMR were replacing their entire fleet with three types of train:?170, 360 and 810. The 180s were not in the plan at all.
 

jharris@furrer

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Is that not because the pantographs on other Class 80x are located on each driving vehicle?
I think the pantographs are in the same place as the 5 car 80X (which is the first and last carriage at the gangway end) but the 80x fleet had a transformer under the first and last vehicle as well but the 810 has a transformer just in the middle coach only. If you look at some of the YouTube videos you can hear that there is no diesel engine in the middle coach
 

Farthingrail5

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It Does not Matter with the formation being similar to an 80X. The headlights are different, what i'm concerned about, is the electrification only reaching Oadby by the time of posting this comment. The whole intention of the Class 810, Like many other TOC's, is to replace their diesel fleet. but if there is only 25 Kv AC that goes only 100 of the 300 miles it has to cover, there is no point on replacing the existing fleet. The only benefit is the fleet number is 33 Intercity sets, Compared to the existing 27 Class 222's. This is a very inadequate number, When talking about their HST Retirement, That was way too early to be retiring their HST's anyways because there would be 5 more years until the Class 810's arrive. So all I can say is, the BR Class 810 is a joke to me, A train meant to get rid of the unclean, unrefurbished Class 222's. But no 7 or 9 car units to compensate for the overcrowding.
 

jharris@furrer

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1707844014193.png
From a video presentation on the Modern Railways site by EMR on the differences between the 80X and 810 fleet.
 
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Yew

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It's very reassuring to see that they've done some reengineering of the air suspension and body/bogie interface. A faster response should mean a smoother ride. I was hoping that the different coach length should improve things, but now I'm feeling much more comfortable about the prospects of having comfortable stock.
 

Bryson

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It's very reassuring to see that they've done some reengineering of the air suspension and body/bogie interface. A faster response should mean a smoother ride. I was hoping that the different coach length should improve things, but now I'm feeling much more comfortable about the prospects of having comfortable stock.
Also interesting to see that they have changed the Aluminium specification and welding method - presumably a preventative action to avoid re-occurrence of the cracking problem.

The 810's appear to be incorporating a lot of learning points from the earlier models.
 

InTheEastMids

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View attachment 152241
From a video presentation on the Modern Railways site by EMR on the differences between the 80X and 810 fleet.

Interesting comparisons with earlier 80x series, thank you for sharing. I had perhaps wondered that the reduced number of electric motors might impact performance, but comparing a doubled up 810 (240m) with a 9 car 800 (234m), not only is the 810 a lot more powerful on diesel (5.9 MW vs 3.5 MW), but even on electric, 16 No. 290 kW motors (4,640 kW) puts it slightly ahead of an 800 which has 20 No. 226 kW motors (for a total output of 4,520 kW). I don't think the 810 weight is known publicly but presumably it will be a bit heavier, due to extra generators, bogies etc.

Also interesting to see that they have changed the Aluminium specification and welding method - presumably a preventative action to avoid re-occurrence of the cracking problem.
Interesting in the context of Para 3.67 of the ORR report into the Hitachi issues with cracking (available at https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...-report-on-hitachi-rolling-stock-cracking.pdf). Quote:

3.67 TWI has identified the factors to consider in order to avoid SCC in aluminium alloys: (a) Avoid the use of 7000 series aluminium alloys where lower strength alloys may be used. For example, lower strength solid solution strengthened 5000 series alloys are much more resistant to SCC
 

Bryson

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Interesting comparisons with earlier 80x series, thank you for sharing. I had perhaps wondered that the reduced number of electric motors might impact performance, but comparing a doubled up 810 (240m) with a 9 car 800 (234m), not only is the 810 a lot more powerful on diesel (5.9 MW vs 3.5 MW), but even on electric, 16 No. 290 kW motors (4,640 kW) puts it slightly ahead of an 800 which has 20 No. 226 kW motors (for a total output of 4,520 kW). I don't think the 810 weight is known publicly but presumably it will be a bit heavier, due to extra generators, bogies etc.


Interesting in the context of Para 3.67 of the ORR report into the Hitachi issues with cracking (available at https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...-report-on-hitachi-rolling-stock-cracking.pdf). Quote:

3.67 TWI has identified the factors to consider in order to avoid SCC in aluminium alloys: (a) Avoid the use of 7000 series aluminium alloys where lower strength alloys may be used. For example, lower strength solid solution strengthened 5000 series alloys are much more resistant to SCC
Yes, I was aware that the use of 7000 series alloys was identified as a significant contributing factor in the cracking. This is why I'm pleased to see that this has been reconsidered in line with TWI's recommendation.
 

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