London Overground line names announced

43066 · 16 Feb 2024

TT-ONR-NRN said:
Its blatantly obvious that they’ve not chosen them because they’re good names or to honour history, but because they link to minority groups and they know that will appease progressives that aren’t satisfied that things are diverse enough, thereby promoting themselves as inclusive and progressive without actually taking any genuinely helpful action. Similarly to how the BBC and ITV had a moral panic and mass hired TV anchors of ethnic minority groups not long ago just to stop people saying only white men read the news.

There’s nothing wrong with that (although re. the example there, I personally would not want to be hired purely to make the employer look good, I’d be insulted to be take on for anything other than my abilities and suitability) but it cannot be denied that it’s clear virtue signalling by TfL to make the Mayor look good. Anyone who disagrees is in denial.

Agreed. It’s very clear what’s going on from the clumsy nature of the names chosen (with the possible exception of Windrush); the “Lioness line”, in particular, is frankly embarrassing. Why would anyone name a railway line after a football team’s nickname?

bramling said:
It’s political, transport and politics don’t go well together - indeed there’s a history of political interference doing immense damage to the provision of transport. The PPP fiasco on London Underground is an example.

Indeed. Unfortunately the mayoralty, since its creation, has only added to the awkward shoe horning of political agendas into the capital’s transport issues. I suppose there’s a long history of this kind of thing in London, dating right back to the days of the GLC.

These bizarre and clumsy names are just the latest breakout of that.

RailUK Forums

Recessio · 16 Feb 2024

I quite like these. Those people saying that passengers won't build up the association/use the new name should bear in mind that it is now universally called the Elizabeth line by passengers now, not Crossrail.

Personally I'd have gone Olympic line for the NLL as it links Olympia with the Olympic park, but I like the new names too. It's definitely a good way to help permanently record some underappreciated bits of London's history. I imagine the amount of Google searches for "Mildmay" has probably skyrocketed!

43066 said:
Agreed. It’s very clear what’s going on from the clumsy nature of the names chosen (with the possible exception of Windrush); the “Lioness line”, in particular, is frankly embarrassing. Why would anyone name a railway line after a football team’s nickname?

We already have Arsenal stadium, named after a football team that used to be located in an entirely different part of London that already has a station with Arsenal in the name. Also, White Hart Lane station was very nearly renamed Tottenham Hotspur station in 2019. So there's a track record of this sort of thing.

43066 · 16 Feb 2024

Recessio said:
We already have Arsenal stadium, named after a football team that used to be located in an entirely different part of London that already has a station with Arsenal in the name.

But that’s one station, named after the official name of team who plays locally (and the station has been so named for nearly a century). The equivalent would be calling one of the new lines “The Gunners” line; it just seems far too tenuous. No other underground stations are named after football teams.

Recessio said:
Also, White Hart Lane station was very nearly renamed Tottenham Hotspur station in 2019. So there's a track record of this sort of thing.

That would also have been an odd choice of name in my view. However at least it would be after the team’s actual name, rather than their nickname. White Hart Lane works better because it refers both to the historic football stadium, and the road named White Hart Lane.

BJames · 16 Feb 2024

Based off of general responses on TikTok, Twitter and various social media forums I would say this has had a generally pretty negative reception. I actually quite like the concept here and I do understand what they're trying to do but I do think the names are naff.

I live on the "Weaver Line" and when I said to my parents and friends that this was what our line was about to be called, the responses were entirely of confusion or eye rolling because they had no idea where this name had come from. I think I'll be able to get used to it but likely I'll just be calling it Overground unless specifics are requested. It will help with quick checking of disruption but to be honest, if I ever saw LO as Part Suspended/Severe Delays I just clicked on it and was quickly able to see whether it was on my line or not, so it's a minor improvement for me but that's about it really.

A number of people on TikTok comments said that the name "Windrush Line" does not sit right with them as the Windrush generation has not seen true justice and this is simply virtue signalling. I offer no opinion on this and apologies that I cannot cite these comments but they were left under a video that has long gone up my feed now.

TT-ONR-NRN said:
The example videos show the new Bakerloo/Central Male voice on the Overground. They’re not going to replace Emma Hignett on board the trains surely? I’m aware Anne has come for her on the platforms.

If I missed a response to this then I apologise, have had to catch up with this thread from the beginning - but my thoughts on this are that Adrian works for TfL and so it's much easier if they just quickly got him to record the audios for the video, rather than paying Emma to record these mock ups before she does them professionally. It'd be great if we were able to keep her voice on the Overground.

There's one bit in that video (at 0:52) showing the line diagram behind the platform at Euston, where Seven Sisters, Blackhorse Road and Walthamstow Central do not even have the Overground interchange showing.

CapitalStar378 · 16 Feb 2024

Having had 24 hours to digest the new names, everything sounds OK now except Suffragette, it just doesn't work as a rail line name for me at all. I'm not sure why.

Windrush would be much better if there was a station in Brixton added though.

Cletus · 16 Feb 2024

Haven't looked to see where the Suffragette Line goes, but if it was the one that went to Liverpool Street, then it could have been called the Suffragette City Line.

DynamicSpirit · 16 Feb 2024

Another irony of the Windrush line is that - if you ignore the historical context of Windrush and just look at the name - 'wind' and 'rush' are both words you'd use to imply speed. That for what must be one of the slowest rail lines in the country!

norbitonflyer · 16 Feb 2024

DynamicSpirit said:
Another irony of the Windrush line is that - if you ignore the historical context of Windrush and just look at the name - 'wind' and 'rush' are both words you'd use to imply speed. That for what must be one of the slowest rail lines in the country!

You can feel the rush of wind as it races through Brixton without stopping.

davews said:
I thought Lioness was something to do with Africa.

You'll have confused visitors who have only heard the name looking for "Line S".

The lines needed separate identities - the old map was a confused explosion in a spaghetti factory and announcements about disruption were far too generic to be of use ("Overground part suspended" is of little help without knowing which part). But the choice of blue for the Mildmay Line is unfortunate as it makes the Stratford area very confusing - it looks like a continuation of the DLR. Salmon pink would have been more approriate given the reason for the name, and highlighted the orbital nature of it and the (red) Windrush Line.

306024 · 16 Feb 2024

Cletus said:
Haven't looked to see where the Suffragette Line goes, but if it was the one that went to Liverpool Street, then it could have been called the Suffragette City Line.

Only if you could afford the ticket. (Non David Bowie fans will have to google).

If the train is cancelled, the Romford - Upminster line becomes the diabolical liberty.

greatkingrat · 16 Feb 2024

DynamicSpirit said:
Another irony of the Windrush line is that - if you ignore the historical context of Windrush and just look at the name - 'wind' and 'rush' are both words you'd use to imply speed. That for what must be one of the slowest rail lines in the country!

It might get confusing if the Windrush line is suspended due to winds rushing!

The exile · 16 Feb 2024

DynamicSpirit said:
Another irony of the Windrush line is that - if you ignore the historical context of Windrush and just look at the name - 'wind' and 'rush' are both words you'd use to imply speed. That for what must be one of the slowest rail lines in the country!

Don’t mind the name too much (other than the fact that the schoolboy in me thinks of the aftermath of beans on toast!), but it seems disrespectful to the ship concerned only to use half of its name. Oh, wait….

Busaholic · 16 Feb 2024

43066 said:
But that’s one station, named after the official name of team who plays locally (and the station has been so named for nearly a century). The equivalent would be calling one of the new lines “The Gunners” line; it just seems far too tenuous. No other underground stations are named after football teams.

That would also have been an odd choice of name in my view. However at least it would be after the team’s actual name, rather than their nickname. White Hart Lane works better because it refers both to the historic football stadium, and the road named White Hart Lane.

Anybody getting off at West Ham station hoping to see a Hammers football game nearby would face a long walk, ditto Queen's Park station for Queens Park Rangers!

Bletchleyite · 16 Feb 2024

The exile said:
it seems disrespectful to the ship concerned only to use half of its name

It's not just the ship. The terms "Windrush generation" and the likes are extremely common. Indeed I had no idea it was a ship until about a week ago.

What it means to me is "Black people who have had a very, very raw deal, which should not be forgotten lest it be repeated".

announcements · 16 Feb 2024

norbitonflyer said:
The lines needed separate identities - the old map was a confused explosion in a spaghetti factory and announcements about disruption were far too generic to be of use ("Overground part suspended" is of little help without knowing which part). But the choice of blue for the Mildmay Line is unfortunate as it makes the Stratford area very confusing - it looks like a continuation of the DLR. Salmon pink would have been more approriate given the reason for the name, and highlighted the orbital nature of it and the (red) Windrush Line.

Windrush as cerise is ok, Liberty as charcoal will do and Lioness in amber probably ok too.

However, the Weaver maroon looks too similar to the Metropolitan, the Suffragette green too similar to the District and Mildmay teal too similar to the DLR as you say. Perhaps they could have swapped out for lavender in one of these cases? I'm trying to think what colours are left!

Actually... How about orange for one of them? The London Underground roundel is red and uses red for the Central line, so why can't they use orange for one of these LO lines?

AlbertBeale · 16 Feb 2024

Class15 said:
It should have just been “North London Line”, “East London Line”, “GOBLIN”, “Emerson Park Line”, “Lea Valley Lines” and “Watford Line”. But no, we have this instead.

Indeed - most people I know, of any generation, who actually use the North London Line call it that - ditto the East LL; and the GOBLIN is in quite common parlance too.

You can't easily generate familiarity with names which aren't obviously meaningful - these things grow on people over time. Since much of the LO system already had names in common use, it's alienating and arrogant of TFL to assign official names not based on what is already known/used. I can't imagine ever using any of these names with any fellow Londoner who already knows them by their old name...

stuu · 16 Feb 2024

AlbertBeale said:
Indeed - most people I know, of any generation, who actually use the North London Line call it that - ditto the East LL; and the GOBLIN is in quite common parlance too.

You can't easily generate familiarity with names which aren't obviously meaningful - these things grow on people over time. Since much of the LO system already had names in common use, it's alienating and arrogant of TFL to assign official names not based on what is already known/used. I can't imagine ever using any of these names with any fellow Londoner who already knows them by their old name...

And yet Elizabeth line seems to be used pretty frequently by the people in our London office when I go there. Despite it not being obviously meaningful

Cdd89 · 16 Feb 2024

There are lots of place names that have lost relevance from when they were originally named, so I don’t see it as a huge issue if Lioness becomes irrelevant someday.

On the other hand, TfL have left the door wide open for wry jokes about “suffering on the suffragette line”.

43066 · 16 Feb 2024

Busaholic said:
Anybody getting off at West Ham station hoping to see a Hammers football game nearby would face a long walk, ditto Queen's Park station for Queens Park Rangers!

To be honest I completely exhausted my football knowledge in my last posts. I only learned which team was based at White Hart Lane on this thread. :lol:

Bletchleyite said:
What it means to me is "Black people who have had a very, very raw deal, which should not be forgotten lest it be repeated".

Which, irrespective of the merits of that statement, perhaps demonstrates that the name is straying into the territory of a political statement about one specific community (and actually only one part of London’s black community, many of whom are not of Caribbean descent).

Perhaps The Commonwealth line would have been a better tip of the hat to the contribution made by all of London’s various diverse communities to the city’s prosperity, both historically and in the present day.

The Windrush line is the least worst of the names, however.

hwl · 16 Feb 2024

Cletus said:
Haven't looked to see where the Suffragette Line goes,

Goblin - the closest to the former HMP Holloway where most of the London area Suffragettes were sent (but TfL failed to mention this point in their press releases).

The exile · 16 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
It's not just the ship. The terms "Windrush generation" and the likes are extremely common. Indeed I had no idea it was a ship until about a week ago.

What it means to me is "Black people who have had a very, very raw deal, which should not be forgotten lest it be repeated".

And I would hold that to name a commuter railway line (which, let’s face it, is going to have negative associations for most of its users, unless TfL achieve a long lasting miracle) after it is to cheapen a serious issue and may well end up distracting from it (at the point at which people come to associate the name with minor inconvenience etc rather than the scandal of the treatment of a group of immigrants who have contributed so much to our lives). This, incidentally, is also one of the reasons I don’t like the name “Elizabeth Line”.

Bletchleyite · 16 Feb 2024

The exile said:
And I would hold that to name a commuter railway line (which, let’s face it, is going to have negative associations for most of its users, unless TfL achieve a long lasting miracle)

London Overground is pretty well regarded to be honest. Particularly when you remember how utterly awful Silverlink Metro was.

But perhaps the best line here is to ask people of the "Windrush generation" what they think, which I'm sure TfL did, at least relevant charities and the likes. Being offended on behalf of others is rarely beneficial.

The exile said:
after it is to cheapen a serious issue and may well end up distracting from it (at the point at which people come to associate the name with minor inconvenience etc rather than the scandal of the treatment of a group of immigrants who have contributed so much to our lives).

No it isn't, and no it won't.

The exile said:
This, incidentally, is also one of the reasons I don’t like the name “Elizabeth Line”.

Wha? The Elizabeth Line is by far the best piece of urban public transport infrastructure in the UK, and it even gives most German systems a run for their money. But do you object to the Victoria Line too? The Jubilee Line (named for the Queen's silver jubilee, hence why it's silver on the map)?

The only thing I dislike about the Lizzie is the way a mode is referred to as the Elizabeth Line, which is inconsistent with the way TfL generally do stuff including this - it should really have been the Crossrail Elizabeth Line, and Crossrail 2 probably the Crossrail Charles Line (or maybe Carolean Line, it sounds better). It also slightly irritates that the "line" suffix is used on maps for the Elizabeth when it isn't for Tube lines.

A60stock · 16 Feb 2024

Tfl should probably look to rename the mode "Elizabeth Line" to Crossrail, leaving most of the signage inside stations as it is but simply changing the roundels to say "Crossrail".

Now would be the best time to do so given that this is one of the biggest rebrands taking place and I'm surprised Khan hasn't changed this seeing as it was a ridiculous decision to make the mode and the line the same thing by Boris Johnson. Seeing as many maps across the network will need updating to show individual lines names, instead of "Overground", as they do now, it seems like a good opportunity to bring the EL into the same Mode and Line differential as is done with all other TFL services.

norbitonflyer · 16 Feb 2024

announcements said:
Actually... How about orange for one of them? The London Underground roundel is red and uses red for the Central line, so why can't they use orange for one of these LO lines?

The Lioness Line colour is close to orange, and the Circle line seems to be more orangey than before as well.

I wonder if there is any mileage in trying to get Mildmay park station (between Dalston Kingsland and Canonbury) re-opened? Or Brixton for that matter.

Meanwhile, in this part of London we have not seen any London Transport/TfL rail-based services since 1932, before London Transport existed.

Meerkat · 16 Feb 2024

These namings are desperately agenda driven, and I don't understand how inclusivity and society is encouraged by concentrating on particular groups .......but roll eyes, shake head, and move on.

Liberty, Weaver, Windrush, are all simple, clear, short names, recognisable as words - likely to be pronounced similarly to how a non-native will have read them, and clearly understood.
Lioness less so, but not too bad.
Suffragette is silly - not London specific, too long, and add accents and rushing and it will not be distinctive nor easily match what someone is reading. And will inevitably become the 'suffering' line
Mildmay is desperately obscure, not a recognisable word, and over tannoys is quickly going to be an indistinct and confusing "marmay".

Not sure the network map nor appropriate names would really make it work but I would have tried to have names beginning in A-F, named in clockwise order of their outer starting points. Of started them with the same letters as the more geographical names. W(atford), G(oblin), E(LL), N(LL, L(ea Valley), U(pminster)

But hey, practical considerations weren't part of the agenda once the decision to have names had taken place.

PS Elizabeth line was also a bad choice.

AlterEgo · 16 Feb 2024

Recessio said:
I quite like these. Those people saying that passengers won't build up the association/use the new name should bear in mind that it is now universally called the Elizabeth line by passengers now, not Crossrail.

The Elizabeth Line is used by a truly staggering number of people and the cultural penetration is several orders of magnitude above the "Lioness Line" (the silliest and most transient of the names in my opinion)

NorthKent1989 · 16 Feb 2024

stuu said:
And yet Elizabeth line seems to be used pretty frequently by the people in our London office when I go there. Despite it not being obviously meaningful

The Elizabeth line is an entirely new line, lines like East London line and North London line are old lines with new names plastered on them

Dr_Paul · 16 Feb 2024

Meerkat said:
Mildmay is desperately obscure, not a recognisable word, and over tannoys is quickly going to be an indistinct and confusing "marmay".

'Marmay' is how members of my dad's family always pronounced it, and they were from neighbouring Dalston. I've always taken it to be the correct pronunciation; it will grate on my ears if it's pronounced 'Mild May' over the station tannoys.

MikeWM · 16 Feb 2024

I don't think the lines needed names to begin with - numbers or letters would have been just fine - but we are where we are.

'Lioness' and 'Suffragette' are truly terrible names for railway lines, however laudable the organisations they get their name from.

'Liberty' strikes me as implying a grandiose and important/exciting line - ie. the exact opposite of the Romford-Upminster shuttle. (At least I now know why one of the shopping centres in Romford is called the 'Liberty'!)

'Weaver' is ok I guess, but the name is already used by one of the most important and well-known junctions on the national network, so personally I'd rather they'd used something else.

'Windrush' and 'Mildmay' are ok, though as pointed out many times Windrush would be more appropriate if there were a station on it in Brixton. Mildmay is rather obscure to most, but getting people to find out more isn't a bad thing.

W-on-Sea · 16 Feb 2024

There actually two Liberty shopping centres in Romford, and have been for about 35 years; and a school named after the Royal Liberty too.

Not only is half of the name of the "Windrush" omitted (as not fitting a presently trendy political agenda) but so is half of the name of the Mildmay Hospital, presumably for similar reasons. As well as long having been run on Evangelical Christian principles (hence the full name), it was also notably closed down by the NHS, only being brought to life (at precisely the time the naming of the line is intended to recall) thanks to the actions of its trustees.

But you can't say "Empire" now, nor "Mission".

The pedant in me notes that the only football club actually to play on White Hart Lane are Haringey Borough

announcements · 16 Feb 2024

MikeWM said:
I don't think the lines needed names to begin with - numbers or letters would have been just fine - but we are where we are.

Letters would have been cheaper to implement too as could keep all the orange branding and maps the same, but just add letter signs to station signage, and update maps over time but no urgent need to update them all at once. What's more, letters would be a far more precise way of differentiating between all the routing - something that cannot be achieved with six line names alone.

NYC style:

A-Richmond-Stratford
B-CJ-Stratford
C-H&I-West Croydon
D-H&I-Crystal Palace
E-H&I-Clapham Jct
F-Dalston Jct-New Cross
G-Goblin
H-Watford DC
(I not in use could be mistaken for 1)
J-Liv St.-Cheshunt
k-Liv St.-Enfield Town
L-Liv St.-Chingford
M-Romford-Upminster
N-Z Reserved for future LO expansion

And yes... the G for Goblin was deliberate...

London Overground line names announced

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