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Location?
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driver9000
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Ansdell & Fairhaven.
The house in the background on the bridge still stands.
The house in the background on the bridge still stands.
Elecman
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Agreed looks very much like Ansdell and Fairhaven
Elecman
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Yes
Mcr Warrior
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Looking in which direction + likely decade? Believe 5709 was built June 1936 so it won't have been before then.
swt_passenger
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Camera is looking east - if you find the junction of Arundel Road and the top end of Lake Road North, you can see a similar view, there’s far more trees alongside the track as you’d expect.
Cant help with age of pic sorry.
Mcr Warrior
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Nah. Beginner's mistake that. It's been a commonly used abbreviation for 'Manchester' for some time now.
Gloster
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It appears to have one of the smaller tenders. Were these later exchanged for larger ones?
thesignalman
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They were, in the 1960s according to:
LMS / BR(M) Jubilee Tenders
An interesting read, it suggests 70 were fitted to Jubilees from new and explains the reasons behind this.
John
As 5709 is carrying a LMS number, presumably the photo predates BR renumbering post-nationalisation.
Bevan Price
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The loco looks very "mucky", so probably during, or after WW2.
Gloster
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I am not sure what the headcode is, but the obvious is that the loco is carrying the general public to Blackpool. However, both Lytham and Squires Gate were used extensively by the RAF during World War II, one for men awaiting passage abroad and the other for training, so this could be a special for some of them. However, taking photos on such a line might not be the wisest thing to do in wartime, so I would reckon the photo is probably from mid-1945 to mid-1948.
Yes, that's right, an express passenger train.
Sorry, no idea on that one.
IIRC specials and troop trains back then would carry the ‘express passenger’ headlamp code if they were timed at express passenger train speeds. A light engine going to assist a failed train, or a breakdown train going to an accident could also carry the headcode.
WesternLancer
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I keep trying to work out if I can make out L M S on the tender or if the shape concerned is the BR emblem. There are possibly 3 patches which could be the 3 letters of LMS or one bright patch which could be an emblem. No doubt others have tried to look but none of us can make it out.
I guess if the loco is numbers under the LMS scheme it is likely that the tender has LMS on it.
I guess if the loco is numbers under the LMS scheme it is likely that the tender has LMS on it.
Me too, I'm sure I can see the S. The engine looks to have seen better days (as in it's worked hard during the war), I tend to agree with others that it's probably between 1945 and 1948.
WesternLancer
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Yes, presumably given the size of the fleet removing pre nationalisation lettering would have taken a bit of time, as indeed would re-numbering but I would have thought re-numbering was more of a priority than lettering, for administrative purposes. Though I am sure experts on the forum will know the timescales of how long it took to renumber the loco fleet.
Snow1964
Established Member
It looks like suburban coaches, as photo shows door hinges protruding to nearly every seating bay. Express stock tended to just have doors to vestibules.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Those are LMS Period 1 and Period 2 corridor (i.e. main line) stock; and I think I spy an ex-Midland Third amongst them.
By the mid 1930s Stanier's Period 3 stock would've been the norm for frontline duties. However the LMS's excursions and secondary services, I would still expect to see Period 1 and 2 corridor stock; even in Postwar LMS years. So I think this is a latter-1940s photo.
I agree. I discern the M and S on the tender.
At Nationalisation, locomotives - certainly frontline classes - fairly swiftly gained either a regional prefix with their Big Four number (M for the LMS, E for the LNER); or had cabside and smokebox numbers with their BR number.
Tenders, however, didn't get changed so rapidly; and I've seen photos as late as 1950, of locos with BR numbers added but with tenders still sporting Big Four lettering.
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I know very little about coaching stock, but I did wonder if those carriages were LMS ones. If they were older LMS ones, that would tie in with this train being perhaps a summer Saturday day excursion or a Wakes week / holiday train as it looks to be what? 10 coaches long. They were still being used on my old branch line in 1963 for these kind of excursions.
Going back to the date...
BRdatabase lists that the engine was re-numbered in January 1949 which makes it pre-1949. The site also states it was based at Crewe North (except for a few months in 1949) from new to April 1950. Perhaps Crewe was the train's starting point?
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Absolutely my line of thinking too. Postwar, Blackpool was a popular destination and, as motor car ownership was not the norm, I think it's likely to be a day excursion train.
I still find it amazing that we can look at a photo and work out its location, where the train is going, what probable date the photo was taken by, all this by a group of us who pool our knowledge together. Great team work!
I think we can summarise the photo now as:
1. The train's location is Ansdell & Fairhaven.
2. The train is on the Preston to Blackpool South line.
3. It's heading West towards Blackpool.
4. The date is probably between 1945 and 1948.
5. It's probably a summer Saturday day excursion.
6. It most likely started from Crewe or somewhere in Cheshire.
I think we can summarise the photo now as:
1. The train's location is Ansdell & Fairhaven.
2. The train is on the Preston to Blackpool South line.
3. It's heading West towards Blackpool.
4. The date is probably between 1945 and 1948.
5. It's probably a summer Saturday day excursion.
6. It most likely started from Crewe or somewhere in Cheshire.
Gloster
Established Member
1 to 4 I would generally agree with, but 5 is only the most likely possibility and 6 is doubtful. All sorts of temporary borrowings or odd workings could happen on a summer Saturday, so the train could have come from anywhere.
Mcr Warrior
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As regards point #3, would the most likely destination in the latter half of the 1940s have been Blackpool Central? If so, does that then not beg the question as to why an excursion train would be routed via Ansdell & Fairhaven, rather than more directly via the now closed Marton line?
Gloster
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Which is why I wondered if it was full of RAF bods. I read a story in the Bulletin of the Military Railway Study Group by a chap who found himself in charge of a large draft of men heading for Germany, starting with a rail journey from Lytham to Harwich.
All good points to which I can't disagree and it's certainly a possibility.
Good question. With Blackpool itself as the main draw for tourists we must not forget Lytham and St. Annes were also destinations for those wishing to get away for a day or even a week's holiday. They were mainly aimed at the higher end of the tourist market, somewhere quieter than Blackpool itself. There is also the tram line to Blackpool should you wish to visit. That's one possible reason.
Another one could have been simply due to traffic or indeed the RAF. Most people going for a day out or indeed a week's holiday simply didn't care what route their train took as long as you got there at a reasonable time.
I can't see any of those destination labels of the carriages.... Question - were these used pre war or were they something BR introduced?