LNER London - Leeds £220 single on Social Media/Yorkshire Evening Post

IanXC · 22 Feb 2024

I saw this earlier today and I just can't rationalise what is going on...

Country is a joke. @LNER making the 23.33 train £220 knowing Leeds fans need to get back to Leeds and won’t make the 22.00 train when that is £47

With screengrab showing London to Leeds journeys (attached):

22:00 £47.45 ('discounted' from £72)
23:33 £218.65 ('discounted' from £230)
23:35 £82:20 ('discounted' from £124.70 - from St Pancras, involving an RRB and arriving Leeds 07:44)

https://twitter.com/samjacobs_01/status/1760390454581875004

Journeys 1 and 3 seem to reflect a railcard discount with the poster goes on to say that they have used.

However, given that the walk up prices are:

Anytime Single: £160.30 (£105.75 with railcard)
Super Off Peak Single: £67.00 (£44.20 with railcard)

Where has the price £218.65 come from? I equally can't find a multiple of either of the walk up fares which would come to this.

The story has even made the Yorkshire Evening Post:

Whites supporters will be making their way back to Yorkshire on Wednesday night following the fifth round tie, which was confirmed by Leeds’ replay win over Plymouth on February 6, but can only make one of the late trains scheduled to depart from London Kings Cross Station. Tickets remain on sale for the 10:00pm service to Leeds, with the cheapest ticket priced at £41.70 on Trainline.com, but the 7:30pm kick-off at Chelsea rules out any possibility of fans making that train. The last available service, due to depart Kings Cross at 23:33pm, is now showing as sold out. On Wednesday evening, however, a dwindling number of ‘anytime tickets’ were still on sale at a cost of over £200, prompting a supporter to contact the operator, London North Eastern Railway [LNER], on social medial platform x.com. Sam Jacobs posted: “Country is a joke. @LNER making the 23.33 train £220 knowing Leeds fans need to get back to Leeds and won’t make the 22.00 train when that is £47.” In response, LNER’s official account said: “Hello. That service is fully booked so, you'd be buying an anytime ticket (the most expensive) in order to board hence the price difference. Apologies about this.”

'Further support' - LNER responds after criticism over Chelsea v Leeds United FA Cup issue

London North Eastern Railway has responded after coming under fire over the train provision for Leeds United fans travelling home from next week’s FA Cup visit to Chelsea at Stamford Bridge.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 22 Feb 2024

The £218.something one is I suspect a First Class Advance, the 5 on the end indicates a Railcard discount. Standard is "sold out" on that train.

JonathanH · 22 Feb 2024

Ultimately about LNER not wanting passengers travelling on their trains without a seat.

Bletchleyite · 22 Feb 2024

Probably makes a reasonable amount of sense for that train given that it's the last of the day and a 5 car, because otherwise people will be left behind.

It's certainly nowt to do with a certain trial because Leeds isn't part of it.

I am however struggling to find that actual fare whether discounted or not, I wonder if it's for two?

Bletchleyite · 22 Feb 2024

Still really struggling to see what is going on there.

For the 2200, £47.45+£3.75 is £51.20, which is an undiscounted Standard Advance tier - that makes sense (so we know it's one person and no railcards, though I don't get how the split is made up of fares with a 5 on the end without Railcards being involved).

But there are no fares at any of:
£218.65 + £3.75 = £222.40 (closest is £223.50, a First Advance)
£230
£245.75

This is very, very odd as I'm not sure how Trainline is able to sell fares at prices that don't exist as Advance tiers.

I also don't quite get why it's selling splits at set-down only stations (all intermediates are set-down only on the 2333).

ServerHoster · 23 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
so we know it's one person and no railcards, though I don't get how the split is made up of fares with a 5 on the end without Railcards being involved

There is a railcard discount, as you can see there is the railcard symbol and the more expensive price crossed out.

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2024

ServerHoster said:
View attachment 152979
There is a railcard discount, as you can see there is the railcard symbol and the more expensive price crossed out.

In that case I can't see where *any* of the fares come from as none of them correspond to Railcard discounted Advance tiers even with the SplitSave saving added back on.

bcarmicle · 23 Feb 2024

It's a return fare (or rather, two singles), not a single, which is why it's not coming up.

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2024

bcarmicle said:
It's a return fare (or rather, two singles), not a single, which is why it's not coming up.

Aha, I now understand. Took me a good play to see why.

It appears if you ask for a return what it does is shows you outward price + the cheapest return price the search finds. It then modifies that figure when you select a return.

Confusing much? Surely it'd make more sense to show the single fares individually. (Trainsplit has moved to do this on their beta site and I really don't like it).

I'd actually never noticed it before because I don't think I've ever bought a return as two singles on Trainline without buying them separately.

Benjwri · 23 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
Confusing much? Surely it'd make more sense to show the single fares individually. (Trainsplit has moved to do this on their beta site and I really don't like it).

I wouldn’t say it’s confusing. It gives you an idea of what the whole journey will cost. Also especially with TrainSplit it is nearly impossible to show a price for one leg on a return journey, because they outward price depends on the inwards. For example if the cheapest ticket for your outbound leg is an Off-Peak one, would you suggest it displays half the off peak return price? Yet if it offers for the return an off peak and peak train, then that half price isn’t valid… Same for if some return trains are cheap with an advance.

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2024

For Trainsplit I prefer the grid format. There's a lot to be said for the original Trainline grid, too.

NorthOxonian · 23 Feb 2024

Benjwri said:
I wouldn’t say it’s confusing. It gives you an idea of what the whole journey will cost. Also especially with TrainSplit it is nearly impossible to show a price for one leg on a return journey, because they outward price depends on the inwards. For example if the cheapest ticket for your outbound leg is an Off-Peak one, would you suggest it displays half the off peak return price? Yet if it offers for the return an off peak and peak train, then that half price isn’t valid… Same for if some return trains are cheap with an advance.

In general this is true but for LNER specifically (which has implemented single leg pricing) it might make more sense to just display the singles each way. That is how their website does it, from memory.

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2024

NorthOxonian said:
In general this is true but for LNER specifically (which has implemented single leg pricing) it might make more sense to just display the singles each way. That is how their website does it, from memory.

Notably the old Virgin site, when they had the half-returns, used to display singles for any journey where only that structure was applicable but the classic grid where other fares were.

The LNER app appears to functionally duplicate Trainline in more or less every way (probably intentional), i.e. show return prices.

AdamWW · 23 Feb 2024

Well this may be unfair on LNER but given their lack of candour over "simpler fares" I find it very hard to feel any sympathy for them.

And it's fairly clear that their intention is to move to a situation where they can (and no doubt would) do something very much this on fares to Leeds.

Iskra · 23 Feb 2024

I saw this on social media. But, aren't there some fairly easy ways around it? What's stopping someone buying a Burley Park-Finsbury Park off peak ticket and travelling on that same train?

There does seem to be an endless stream of bad publicity for LNER recently, and I have to say it is entirely deserved.

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2024

Iskra said:
I saw this on social media. But, aren't there some fairly easy ways around it? What's stopping someone buying a Burley Park-Finsbury Park off peak ticket and travelling on that same train?

There does seem to be an endless stream of bad publicity for LNER recently, and I have to say it is entirely deserved.

The trial doesn't apply to Leeds. It only applies to Edinburgh, Newcastle and Berwick. It's come up expensive because in one direction only a First Class fare was available.

Iskra · 23 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
The trial doesn't apply to Leeds. It only applies to Edinburgh, Newcastle and Berwick. It's come up expensive because in one direction only a First Class fare was available.

Well in that case a Leeds-Kings Cross off-peak day return with an optional reservation on a different service would still be valid for travel on that train?

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2024

Iskra said:
Well in that case a Leeds-Kings Cross off-peak day return with an optional reservation on a different service would still be valid for travel on that train?

There isn't a ticket of that description because single fares are in place. But yes, a Super Off Peak Single booked for another train would be valid. However given that it's a 5-car and there's a known large demand for it I'd not risk it, there's a very high chance of being left behind, and regardless of the law on the matter that might allow you to pursue them afterwards in Court, because LNER have flagged it compulsory reservation they aren't going to be providing hotels and taxis.

OscarH · 23 Feb 2024

If they didn't abuse the compulsory reservations flag then this wouldn't have happened. This kind of press is a hole they dug for themselves, though I'm not sure they care

Iskra · 23 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
There isn't a ticket of that description because single fares are in place. But yes, a Super Off Peak Single booked for another train would be valid. However given that it's a 5-car and there's a known large demand for it I'd not risk it, there's a very high chance of being left behind, and regardless of the law on the matter that might allow you to pursue them afterwards in Court, because LNER have flagged it compulsory reservation they aren't going to be providing hotels and taxis.

It is an interesting one. Practically, stopping hundreds of football fans boarding may be difficult. The police of course, will want them on the train and rid of them, regardless of reservations or not, rules can and do go out of the window in these situations.

This fixture obviously did come about at short notice, but as well as LNER being consistently poor, the club have to take some accountability as they could have chartered a train from the likes of WCRC or even LNER within the available time frame. The club would however point out that they provide official coaches to all away games, and increase the number according to demand. These coaches are slow, dry and not necessarily any use to supporters living outside of Leeds.

AdamWW · 23 Feb 2024

OscarH said:
If they didn't abuse the compulsory reservations flag then this wouldn't have happened. This kind of press is a hole they dug for themselves, though I'm not sure they care

I'm sure LNER's predecessors used to make trains compulsory reservation at busy times over Christmas.

I think in this case there would be a very good reason to make the train actually compulsory reservation.

Of course the best answer would be to provide sufficient additional capacity but that's presumably not practical here (though if it's normally 5 cars then swapping it for a longer one might be possible?)

Bletchleyite · 23 Feb 2024

Iskra said:
It is an interesting one. Practically, stopping hundreds of football fans boarding may be difficult. The police of course, will want them on the train and rid of them, regardless of reservations or not, rules can and do go out of the window in these situations.

I was more thinking that they will reach the point where you can't physically fit anyone else on.

LNER would of course be obliged to provide an alternative for anyone who had a reservation and was turned away, and I can't see why they wouldn't for those specific people.

(BR used to mark trains mandatory reservation in this sort of case - it's quite different to the misuse of the flag - indeed most on the afternoon of 24th Dec out of Euston would be!)

Iskra · 23 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
I was more thinking that they will reach the point where you can't physically fit anyone else on.

LNER would of course be obliged to provide an alternative for anyone who had a reservation and was turned away, and I can't see why they wouldn't for those specific people.

(BR used to mark trains mandatory reservation in this sort of case - it's quite different to the misuse of the flag - indeed most on the afternoon of 24th Dec out of Euston would be!)

I've just seen there is a 2300 to York, which calls at Doncaster. That's the one I'd be aiming for!

Snow1964 · 23 Feb 2024

AdamWW said:
Of course the best answer would be to provide sufficient additional capacity but that's presumably not practical here (though if it's normally 5 cars then swapping it for a longer one might be possible?)

Yes, agree, given the bad publicity, probably very strong case for paying out to run a relief train, or swap units to a longer one then replying publicly saying adding capacity.

This is really a shot yourself in the foot situation, if don't want to highlight problems of single leg pricing. People will latch on to one bad snippet of info and then apply it to whole concept.

Haywain · 23 Feb 2024

AdamWW said:
Of course the best answer would be to provide sufficient additional capacity but that's presumably not practical here (though if it's normally 5 cars then swapping it for a longer one might be possible?)

I would be surprised if that wasn't being looked into, but even if it can be done it is unlikely to be advertised (in the interests of managing expectations).

Iskra said:
The police of course, will want them on the train and rid of them,

The police, BTP in this case, will also be well aware that they will be called upon to manage any problems en route that result from doing that.

Snow1964 said:
Yes, agree, given the bad publicity, probably very strong case for paying out to run a relief train,

I can't see there being a long list of volunteers to crew a train full of football fans late at night.

Deerfold · 23 Feb 2024

Iskra said:
I've just seen there is a 2300 to York, which calls at Doncaster. That's the one I'd be aiming for!

And you'd probably be stuck at Doncaster. The 2330 is set down only after London Kings Cross and so is not advertised at stations on the way.

Iskra · 23 Feb 2024

Deerfold said:
And you'd probably be stuck at Doncaster. The 2330 is pick up only after London Kings Cross and so is not advertised at stations on the way.

Haven’t done it for ages, but I think there are later trains between York and Leeds.

Snow1964 · 23 Feb 2024

Haywain said:
I can't see there being a long list of volunteers to crew a train full of football fans late at night.

This in when those that take extra pay for being a manager, need to step up, and muck in, and act like there is a crisis (which to some extent there is if don't want bad publicity around half of Yorkshire).

It is probably one of those rare occasions where leadership at the top needs to set an example, even MD volunteering to be customer assistant on extra train

Iskra · 23 Feb 2024

Snow1964 said:
This in when those that take extra pay for being a manager, need to step up, and muck in, and act like there is a crisis (which to some extent there is if don't want bad publicity around half of Yorkshire)

The crewing requirements for adding another 5 carriages must be minimal. You already have a driver and a guard. Catering can presumably be abandoned and you’d expect BTP on board anyway. If extra shunting or ECS is required, those extra staff won’t be going anywhere near any football fans.

Haywain · 23 Feb 2024

Iskra said:
The crewing requirements for adding another 5 carriages must be minimal. You already have a driver and a guard. Catering can presumably be abandoned and you’d expect BTP on board anyway. If extra shunting or ECS is required, those extra staff won’t be going anywhere near any football fans.

My comments referred to running an additional train. The solution of running 9 cars instead of 5 would require no additional staff.

LNER London - Leeds £220 single on Social Media/Yorkshire Evening Post

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