Changes to SE metro services next June

ComUtoR · 21 Dec 2023

NorthKent1989 said:
Youve had a different experience to Thameslink than most I’ve met, most people hate it, and wish for the old Gillingham semi fasts to return, which I must say in light of the EL at Abbey Wood, would be handy, I can’t imagine the all stations Thameslink service being as popular as the old Gillingham semi fasts.

We often disagree about the Thameslinks but you do have a point about the Gilly semi fasts. My problem with those was always that they were too exclusive. If you benefitted from a semi; I can see why you would want them back.

In Metroland, the goal is to shovel passengers into and out of London. Turn up and go services and swallow up passenger loads to reduce overcrowding during the peaks.

I would say that a turn up and go service isn't about faster journey times. Nobody really cares. Commuters time their journeys for the daily grind and the leisure folks just want to get where they are going without making an effort.

Even the Sidcup 'semi fasts' don't really sit with the 'Metro' ethos. They tend to run based on minimal service requirements and operationally to get units back in town to run peak services.

RailUK Forums

PGAT · 21 Dec 2023

ComUtoR said:
We often disagree about the Thameslinks but you do have a point about the Gilly semi fasts. My problem with those was always that they were too exclusive. If you benefitted from a semi; I can see why you would want them back.

In Metroland, the goal is to shovel passengers into and out of London. Turn up and go services and swallow up passenger loads to reduce overcrowding during the peaks.

I would say that a turn up and go service isn't about faster journey times. Nobody really cares. Commuters time their journeys for the daily grind and the leisure folks just want to get where they are going without making an effort.

Even the Sidcup 'semi fasts' don't really sit with the 'Metro' ethos. They tend to run based on minimal service requirements and operationally to get units back in town to run peak services.

I agree but the Thameslink doesn’t do a good job at providing a turn-up-and-go service.

ComUtoR · 21 Dec 2023

778 said:
I had quite a long journey in a 465 from Charing Cross - Tunbridge Wells 2 months ago, and found it quite comfortable. It certainly did not seem like a rust bucket to me.

I like new and shiny. Networkers are workhorses but have had their day and should be consigned to history.

778 said:
It was probably more comfortable than the return journey in a 375, although the return train was busier. I don't get why the 365s are fawned over and the 465s/466s are disliked on this forum, when they are almost the same train.

Never been on a 365 and I don't have an enthusiasts perspective. SE stock has been kicked down the road too often and the 707 cast offs felt like a backhander rather than meeting the needs of SE

778 said:
I hope TFL dont take over the Southeastern Metro

Again, I genuinely don't think the everyday passenger cares what livery is on the train or who's name is on their ticket. If TL took over and run identical routes or, keeping on topic, reinstated the semi fasts. I'm not sure we'd be having this discussion.

Wolfie said:
The 365s were better cared for and had a serious refurbishment. Southeastern have done pretty much nothing to the 465/466s except fit retention toilets (and l'm not sure that was done to all of them).

Retractioning. (Hitachi Motors) numerous Mods and "upgrades" PRM upgrades, quick 'refreshes'.

They have done some bits

PGAT said:
I agree but the Thameslink doesn’t do a good job at providing a turn-up-and-go service.

In isolation, no.

I was convinced by "Richard without hair" that hitting London Bridge and changing was going to be the new normal. If you switch your mindset a little; it sorta works.

The Railway isn't perfect. Less changes for me is the default. A-B and plan accordingly.

Again, maybe I'm strange that I just look at my options and then make a plan. Get there early, have a backup option and not stress or care about the other service that gets me there 2 minutes before if I make 3 different connections :/

bramling · 22 Dec 2023

778 said:
I had quite a long journey in a 465 from Charing Cross - Tunbridge Wells 2 months ago, and found it quite comfortable. It certainly did not seem like a rust bucket to me. It was probably more comfortable than the return journey in a 375, although the return train was busier. I don't get why the 365s are fawned over and the 465s/466s are disliked on this forum, when they are almost the same train.

On the point about 365s, they had a refined interior design from the start, weren’t subject to the level of abuse the 465s have had in terms of vandalism, and were better looked after. The SE Networkers have been somewhat left to rot, and it shows.

Blindtraveler · 22 Dec 2023

NorthKent1989 said:
Youve had a different experience to Thameslink than most I’ve met, most people hate it, and wish for the old Gillingham semi fasts to return, which I must say in light of the EL at Abbey Wood, would be handy, I can’t imagine the all stations Thameslink service being as popular as the old Gillingham semi fasts.

If Thameslink were faster on both sides of the river it would be attractive but it calls at way too many stations for it to ever be useful

I was going to write something near enough identical to this. A faster train to abbey wood that isn't operated by Thameslink and isn't a third class cattle wagon that masquerades as a UK passenger train is very much desired, I'm in Chatham and use the Lizzie a lot although have altered my habits a bit since the summer due to plunging reliability.

I await any potential changes to Thames link services with interest, not that I'm expecting improvements but if there's going to be theoretically less trained on that section of root then we might have a few less problems with reliability particularly passing through a Dartford

southern442 · 22 Dec 2023

Just a more even service via Woolwich would be very much welcome. With regards to thameslink vs liz line, the fact that we have some people on here strongly preferring the direct service and others advocating for the quicker one with a change is a sign of healthy transport flow - ideally we want both at capacity!

ComUtoR · 22 Dec 2023

Blindtraveler said:
I was going to write something near enough identical to this. A faster train to abbey wood that isn't operated by Thameslink and isn't a third class cattle wagon that masquerades as a UK passenger train is very much desired

As you are Chatham way. Why not HS1 as your alternative ?

I'd happily dig up the A2 and extend the Elizabeth Line for you...

Blindtraveler · 22 Dec 2023

Only just become a viable option again in my view in terms of cost, the restrictive one tph outside of the peaks and pretty much all day Saturday until the December TT change made it bad value for money, furthermore I like the range of connecting destinations available via the Lizzie without necessarily having to change in zone 1

richa2002 · 22 Dec 2023

brad465 said:
I don't know the details but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some element of pre-election sweeteners is involved: that tweet coming from the local Tory MP already shows some of that at play, and all the constituencies on the south-east edge of London and NW Kent are Tory held.

I'm always amazed at the idea of an increased rail service being significant enough to sway a voter...!

ComUtoR · 22 Dec 2023

Blindtraveler said:
Only just become a viable option again in my view in terms of cost, the restrictive one tph outside of the peaks and pretty much all day Saturday until the December TT change made it bad value for money,

Cheers, that makes sense.

Blindtraveler said:
furthermore I like the range of connecting destinations available via the Lizzie without necessarily having to change in zone 1

I'm only just dipping my toe into the Lizzy but those connections are interesting. I met a friend who came up from Reading the other month. That was pretty cool. Also, when I have travelled, plenty of folks with suitcases.

NorthKent1989 · 22 Dec 2023

Blindtraveler said:
I was going to write something near enough identical to this. A faster train to abbey wood that isn't operated by Thameslink and isn't a third class cattle wagon that masquerades as a UK passenger train is very much desired, I'm in Chatham and use the Lizzie a lot although have altered my habits a bit since the summer due to plunging reliability.

I await any potential changes to Thames link services with interest, not that I'm expecting improvements but if there's going to be theoretically less trained on that section of root then we might have a few less problems with reliability particularly passing through a Dartford

With the Rainham Thameslink service I don’t see any substantial changes unfortunately, it’ll either stay as it is or revert back to a SE service, in the 90s it was possible to reach Abbey Wood from Rochester inside of 30 minutes, with stops only at Strood, Higham, Gravesend and Dartford, as I’ve said before this would be so handy now.

bramling said:
On the point about 365s, they had a refined interior design from the start, weren’t subject to the level of abuse the 465s have had in terms of vandalism, and were better looked after. The SE Networkers have been somewhat left to rot, and it shows.

This is true, the last big Networker refurb was in the 2000s and even then it wasn’t nearly as extensive enough.

markyl · 26 Feb 2024

Having a look at Orpington Services to London Bridge on Sundays from June

Daytime departures

Orpington XX08 & XX38 Slow & XX08 & XX38 Fast

Why not space these departures 15 minutes apart ?

An unnecessary 30 Min perceived gap

30907 · 26 Feb 2024

markyl said:
Having a look at Orpington Services to London Bridge on Sundays from June

Daytime departures

Orpington XX08 & XX38 Slow & XX08 & XX38 Fast

Why not space these departures 15 minutes apart ?

An unnecessary 30 Min perceived gap

If you did that, the stopper would be overtaken at Lewisham by the fast, and there would be complaints. As it is they are about 15min apart at LBG both ways.

There may be a complicated timetabling reason, or (my unwarranted suspicion of) a lobby from Chelsfield etc for a connection into the fast at Orpington. Or possibly a connection out of the Ashford service at Sevenoaks (not yet uploaded BTW).

markyl · 26 Feb 2024

30907 said:
If you did that, the stopper would be overtaken at Lewisham by the fast, and there would be complaints. As it is they are about 15min apart at LBG both ways.

There may be a complicated timetabling reason, or (my unwarranted suspicion of) a lobby from Chelsfield etc for a connection into the fast at Orpington. Or possibly a connection out of the Ashford service at Sevenoaks (not yet uploaded BTW).

Or at least leave it as it is now ...

Orpington XX21 & XX51 Slow & XX12 & XX42 Fast

N/100 · 26 Feb 2024

The Victoria services will be at XX20 and XX 50, so (1) in terms of bridging the gap that's job done and (2) the slow CHX couldn't run as now .

CarrotPie · 26 Feb 2024

N/100 said:
(2) the slow CHX couldn't run as now

Whyever not?

Stephen42 · 26 Feb 2024

CarrotPie said:
Whyever not?

They use the same tracks so would need to be 3 minutes apart. The current arrangement isn't great, while they may be 15 minutes apart at Orpington they arrive at London Bridge 6 minutes apart. The opposite direction the fast overtakes the slow so it is a 30 minute gap anyway.

The new arrangement has connections from the slow to fast at Orpington for those between Chelsfield and Dunton Green to have a faster London journey with a change in both directions. It also avoids some performance risks with the slow trains having a longer reoccupation time than the current 3 minutes at Sevenoaks and not immediately following the Hastings service to London which may get delayed on the single track sections.

Class15 · 29 Feb 2024

The timetable on the Greenwich line is quite shocking. As someone who regularly uses Thameslink between Greenwich and North London, there is a Thameslink train that is normally perfectly timed for me to take from Greenwich. However, if I miss that train due to delays leaving or other factors, it’s then a 23-minute wait until the next SouthEastern service. I believe it’s better beyond Charlton as Blackheath services join on there. But it’s really annoying how a 4tph service is so unevenly spaced.

Horizon22 · 1 Mar 2024

Class15 said:
The timetable on the Greenwich line is quite shocking. As someone who regularly uses Thameslink between Greenwich and North London, there is a Thameslink train that is normally perfectly timed for me to take from Greenwich. However, if I miss that train due to delays leaving or other factors, it’s then a 23-minute wait until the next SouthEastern service. I believe it’s better beyond Charlton as Blackheath services join on there. But it’s really annoying how a 4tph service is so unevenly spaced.

Much more even from June, as discussed above.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Greenwich around 0807 on 25/06/2024

Train information at Greenwich around 0807 on 25/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

ScotGG · 1 Mar 2024

Though only temp isn't it due to Blackheath tunnel closure? From August trains per hour are back down again and while spacings are slightly improved it's still far from what it was before cuts

nw1 · 1 Mar 2024

Not Metro but Southeastern seems to be taking a much more positive attitude to re-growing the peak than, say, SWR.

From their improvements page:

Timetables | Southeastern

Check your train times before you travel. Download our timetables for updated routes and times along with helpful information for your journey.

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

Trains have been better spaced and run every 15 minutes towards London Bridge from stations between Pluckley and Paddock Wood during the busiest times of the morning, arriving in London between 0711 and 0842.
There are 2 extra trains from Ashford to Charing Cross to provide more space during the busiest times in the morning, arriving at Charing Cross at 0802 and 0832.

and

An extra 2 services will run from Charing Cross to Ashford via Maidstone East at 1659 and 1759, giving a half hourly service from 1629 until 1829 between Charing Cross and Maidstone East line stations.
This will also mean that customers can travel direct from Charing Cross to Bearsted, Hollingbourne, Harrietsham, Lenham and Charing during this time.

An extra 3 services will run from Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross on weekdays between 0900 and 1030, calling at High Brooms, Tonbridge, Hildenborough, Sevenoaks, and Orpington and an extra service from Charing Cross will run to Hastings arriving at 0829.

Departures from Tunbridge Wells are better spaced during the busiest times in the morning between 0709 and 0820 from Tunbridge Wells towards London helping to create more space.

Nice to see some positive improvements for a change.

Blindtraveler · 1 Mar 2024

Really positive indeed, I think they have seen the value of commuter services being put back and made usable, as someone who frequently uses the evening canon Street cruises two and from the Medway towns and onwards to the coast it is plain that whilst not as many people are going into the office every day, across the week the numbers justify the level of Service being offered

Class15 · 1 Mar 2024

Horizon22 said:
Much more even from June, as discussed above.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Greenwich around 0807 on 25/06/2024

Train information at Greenwich around 0807 on 25/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks. Seems like a good improvement, even if 6tph is temporary.

Stephen42 · 2 Mar 2024

Class15 said:
Thanks. Seems like a good improvement, even if 6tph is temporary.

In the morning peak, there's an hour of 6tph perfectly spaced. On that link it's only the Dartford to Cannon Street trains that will be removed once the engineering works are over which run 3 minutes apart from other trains.

Outside the peak it's 12/18 minute spacing at Greenwich and varies a little across the route due to differing stopping patterns.

brad465 · 2 Mar 2024

The North Kent summer specials are returning this year, with 2 return trips from Cannon St-Ramsgate on Saturdays from early June, and 1 return trip on Sundays during the school holidays. There is no weekday service, which used to exist in the form of 1 outbound only trip in the morning (as the stock would have been needed in the peak back in the metro area).

NorthKent1989 · 2 Mar 2024

brad465 said:
The North Kent summer specials are returning this year, with 2 return trips from Cannon St-Ramsgate on Saturdays from early June, and 1 return trip on Sundays during the school holidays. There is no weekday service, which used to exist in the form of 1 outbound only trip in the morning (as the stock would have been needed in the peak back in the metro area).

I take it it’ll run via Greenwich as Blackheath Tunnel will be closed in this period right?

The Victoria to Ramsgate via Woolwich special last year was a good service, I don’t know why they can’t run Victoria trains to the Woolwich line regularly if Charing Cross is full, better than all Cannon Street trains.

nw1 · 2 Mar 2024

brad465 said:
The North Kent summer specials are returning this year, with 2 return trips from Cannon St-Ramsgate on Saturdays from early June, and 1 return trip on Sundays during the school holidays. There is no weekday service, which used to exist in the form of 1 outbound only trip in the morning (as the stock would have been needed in the peak back in the metro area).

Perhaps surprising there aren't any weekday services as theoretically you could have something departing London around 0900 and arriving back around 1800 which could then form a later peak service. Perhaps the return would be too early though.

Just checked what they did in the 80s and the outbound services left Charing Cross at 1005 and 1105 but the returns arrived after 1900; obviously they had more stock going spare in those days. All formed of seasonal extensions of the Gillingham semi-fasts.

SolomonSouth · 2 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
We often disagree about the Thameslinks but you do have a point about the Gilly semi fasts. My problem with those was always that they were too exclusive. If you benefitted from a semi; I can see why you would want them back.

I believe there still is a Gillingham semi-fast in the rush hour.

NorthKent1989 · 2 Mar 2024

nw1 said:
All formed of seasonal extensions of the Gillingham semi-fasts.

This was pretty much the case until 2017, after which from 2018 to 2022 it was an extension of the Greenwich stopper, last year it was an extended version of the Cannon Street to Dartford service but fast from London Bridge to Lewisham, then there was the Victoria service which was similar to the old CX-Gillingham service but with Plumstead and Slade Green added as stops

brad465 · 2 Mar 2024

NorthKent1989 said:
I take it it’ll run via Greenwich as Blackheath Tunnel will be closed in this period right?

The Victoria to Ramsgate via Woolwich special last year was a good service, I don’t know why they can’t run Victoria trains to the Woolwich line regularly if Charing Cross is full, better than all Cannon Street trains.

I'm pretty sure when it's been Cannon St/London Bridge, which has been the majority of cases, it's run via Greenwich.

Changes to SE metro services next June

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