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Jersey and Guernsey rail tunnel

The Ham

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6 Jul 2012
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10,335
Whist it's got backers, I feel that this part of the forum maybe better suited to this discussion:


A series of roadshows are being held to further explore linking the Channel Islands to France via an undersea tunnel.
The idea is being driven by local entrepreneur and former Guernsey Chamber of Commerce president Martyn Dorey.
Mr Dorey has taken inspiration from tunnels that link the Faroe Islands and believes a Channel Islands Tunnel would bring economic benefits.
Having spent the past five years on the idea, he said support for the project has now gathered.
Mr Martyn cofounded the Connect 3 Million campaign to build the sub-seabed link in 2019, and the group has been lobbying decision-makers and politicians since.
The Faroe Islands to the north of Scotland have a population of about 53,000 and spent hundreds of millions of pounds on a subsea tunnel network.
A rail tunnel between Guernsey and France via Jersey would cost an estimated £5.6bn and take up to 10 years to build, according to the campaign group.
 
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R

RailUK Forums

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Revival of the Jersey Rly and Jersey Eastern Rly to crosss the island? The Faroes had the largesse of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund to draw on.
 

stuu

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2,773
Revival of the Jersey Rly and Jersey Eastern Rly to crosss the island? The Faroes had the largesse of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund to draw on.
Sure about that? I expect Denmark would not be pleased
 

Silenos

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The Faroes had the largesse of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund to draw on.
Um - they’re part of Denmark? And you have to pay a hefty toll each time you use them. But interesting that the government was willing to spend so much on a remote area with a relatively small population. You might call such a project ‘levelling up’, perhaps.
 
Last edited:

EIKN

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Joined
19 Sep 2017
Messages
113
It's becoming clear that railways are coming back into fashion so to speak , EV's are not the answer and even the motor industry is trying hard to develop hydrogen powered vehicles, or alternative biofuels for internal combustion engines, but as cars get more expensive, like the crazy prices for the upcoming Renault 4 and 5 , both are designed to resemble the originals, but they are over £20,000 that's a lot of expensive for a small car at a time when money is tight for everyone , further the climate IS changing either a natural cycle of the earth or also our own affects on the earth , France , and. Now Spain and one other EU nation are banning short haul flights where there is a suitable high speed rail alternative, as no matter how good the new crop of regional jets that can also perform. Long haul flights, like the A220, and eve. The Embraer E2 195's , both of which are much larger than the original 737's .

They are very fuel efficient and less damaging to the environment, but by the time you've gone through security and reached your airport gate plus the requirement to be at an airport at least two hours before the flight , means a train can actually be quicker and aside from London city , trains take you direct to a city , town or village you want to go to .so I think this idea for the tunnels is probably a good one , on the fearo islands, their airport was extended, its runway made longer to accept larger Airbus aircraft , boeing 737's abd the Embraer ejets .
However the airport itself was built on an island and before you had to take a ferry that made it a very long trip . The tunnels they built , have reduced ferry use , apart from some services that remain popular, but with the airport also having a large new terminal, and is offering a lot of choice of routes , until the road tunnel opened it didn't help the airport grow as it has until the tunnels were built .
The idea for tunnels to link the channel Islands , will be great , as recently air France and a new startup airline , ha e started flights to brest airport and other Northern french airports from the UK for example , but Brest airport is not very well placed and you then need to take a train if you want to go to Paris , also the only way to get to the channel Islands is ferry or plane .
The channel tunnel has definitely helped matters , and proved that such tunnels can help be an alternative for flights , a d also allows travel into central London from Amsterdam , Paris and other EU nations .

So I don't see why it's. A bad idea for a new rail tunnel to the channel islands, although one would hope they have a tunnel between each island , to make this worth while . It would be even better if it were possible to have a tunnel from the islands to the UK rail network.

Of course there is the matter of what types of trains you'd see, I can't imagine Eurostar length trains , perhaps. More like the Hitachi units, which at a top speed of 140mph are plenty fast enough, the class 395's are the commuter version of the class 800 series . Indeed the class 810 is closer in design to the 395's .
I say this as the channel islands are relatively small , and would need trains to suit.
It would also reduce the use of diesel ferries that pollute the atmosphere.
The only thing that seems to be something that isn't being very clear is the cost of these projects , as it's not just a tunnel needed but suitable rolling stock as I have said .

It only makes more sense of they can tunnel to the south coast and link to the rest of the rail network in the UK .

So a great idea in principle but there is a lot that's been left out eg rolling stock , the locations and costs of new stations , and also damaging the beauty of the islands ( just look at the scars on the landscape as they build the pointless HS2 project .
It will need serious money from the EU and UK
So it remains to be seen if this project will come to pass .
 

supervc-10

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2012
Messages
703
It's becoming clear that railways are coming back into fashion so to speak , EV's are not the answer and even the motor industry is trying hard to develop hydrogen powered vehicles, or alternative biofuels for internal combustion engines, but as cars get more expensive, like the crazy prices for the upcoming Renault 4 and 5 , both are designed to resemble the originals, but they are over £20,000 that's a lot of expensive for a small car at a time when money is tight for everyone , further the climate IS changing either a natural cycle of the earth or also our own affects on the earth , France , and. Now Spain and one other EU nation are banning short haul flights where there is a suitable high speed rail alternative, as no matter how good the new crop of regional jets that can also perform. Long haul flights, like the A220, and eve. The Embraer E2 195's , both of which are much larger than the original 737's .

They are very fuel efficient and less damaging to the environment, but by the time you've gone through security and reached your airport gate plus the requirement to be at an airport at least two hours before the flight , means a train can actually be quicker and aside from London city , trains take you direct to a city , town or village you want to go to .so I think this idea for the tunnels is probably a good one , on the fearo islands, their airport was extended, its runway made longer to accept larger Airbus aircraft , boeing 737's abd the Embraer ejets .
However the airport itself was built on an island and before you had to take a ferry that made it a very long trip . The tunnels they built , have reduced ferry use , apart from some services that remain popular, but with the airport also having a large new terminal, and is offering a lot of choice of routes , until the road tunnel opened it didn't help the airport grow as it has until the tunnels were built .
The idea for tunnels to link the channel Islands , will be great , as recently air France and a new startup airline , ha e started flights to brest airport and other Northern french airports from the UK for example , but Brest airport is not very well placed and you then need to take a train if you want to go to Paris , also the only way to get to the channel Islands is ferry or plane .
The channel tunnel has definitely helped matters , and proved that such tunnels can help be an alternative for flights , a d also allows travel into central London from Amsterdam , Paris and other EU nations .

So I don't see why it's. A bad idea for a new rail tunnel to the channel islands, although one would hope they have a tunnel between each island , to make this worth while . It would be even better if it were possible to have a tunnel from the islands to the UK rail network.

Of course there is the matter of what types of trains you'd see, I can't imagine Eurostar length trains , perhaps. More like the Hitachi units, which at a top speed of 140mph are plenty fast enough, the class 395's are the commuter version of the class 800 series . Indeed the class 810 is closer in design to the 395's .
I say this as the channel islands are relatively small , and would need trains to suit.
It would also reduce the use of diesel ferries that pollute the atmosphere.
The only thing that seems to be something that isn't being very clear is the cost of these projects , as it's not just a tunnel needed but suitable rolling stock as I have said .

It only makes more sense of they can tunnel to the south coast and link to the rest of the rail network in the UK .

So a great idea in principle but there is a lot that's been left out eg rolling stock , the locations and costs of new stations , and also damaging the beauty of the islands ( just look at the scars on the landscape as they build the pointless HS2 project .
It will need serious money from the EU and UK
So it remains to be seen if this project will come to pass .

Where do we start.....

Firstly- agree that cars are not the answer for all over mobility, but EVs are definitely the answer for road vehicles. You mention the Renault 5 being expensive- a base model Clio is nearly £18k these days, all cars are expensive. Hell. All things have gotten expensive. Most of the motor industry is ignoring hydrogen because it's a waste of time. EVs are now long legged that they're matching drivers' bladder range, and charge quick enough for that driver to go empty their bladder, buy some coffee to refill their bladder, and carry on until the next loo stop. Hydrogen has advantages for heavy goods vehicles, but not the sort of vehicles you or I will be driving. The abject failure of every hydrogen car that's been sold shows that.

The banning of short-haul flights is only for where there is a viable train alternative, and notably does not ban the flight from operating, but only that the airline can't sell a standalone ticket. Air France can still fly from Lyon to Paris, for example, but only sell seats for people with an onward connection. However- a bit like BA's flights to Manchester from Heathrow- who in their right mind would take the plane, unless connecting? I've done Heathrow to Manchester, but only after getting off a flight from Chicago. Equally I've flown Air France from London to Paris, and then got on a plane to Chicago, and I remember the majority of the passengers when we got off headed towards the flight connections. I can't imagine that AF's flights from Paris to Lyon had many people who weren't connecting, given how good the TGV is and how much of a nightmare flying often can be (and I say that as someone who is as much of a plane nerd as I am a train nerd).

Nobody is going to be going from the UK to either Paris or Jersey by going via Brest. They're either going to to get on a direct flight to Paris or Jersey, going to get the Eurostar if they're going to Paris, or get the ferry. The French regional airline in Brest you speak of is Finist'air, who fly a single Cessna Caravan, which has a maximum of 13 seats, so... we're not exactly talking mass people moving.

A tunnel from Jersey or Guernsey to France would of course get use, whether it's rail or road, but it would cost billions. It would never recoup the cost of development. Would it be cool? Definitely! But it's totally pie in the sky...
 

HSTEd

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Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,764
Even if we discount electric planes as silly (which I personally do), battery-electric hovercraft would be able to decarbonise a lot of these journeys without requiring massive railway tunnels or viaducts.
I think Jersey-France is probably practical as a viaduct because of how shallow it is, but the water between Guernsey and Jersey is much much deeper

Guernsey is only 62nm or so from Great Britain at Portland.
 

Peter Wilde

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Joined
14 Oct 2019
Messages
48
Location
Surrey
Tourists like holidays on islands because their isolation makes the vibe a bit different. That even works for the Isle of Wight!

Connecting the Channel Islands by rail tunnel would ruin that. Not to worry, it will never happen as it’s unaffordably expensive.
 

Bald Rick

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Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,225
It's becoming clear that railways are coming back into fashion so to speak , EV's are not the answer and even the motor industry is trying hard to develop hydrogen powered vehicles, or alternative biofuels for internal combustion engines, but as cars get more expensive, like the crazy prices for the upcoming Renault 4 and 5 , both are designed to resemble the originals, but they are over £20,000 that's a lot of expensive for a small car at a time when money is tight for everyone , further the climate IS changing either a natural cycle of the earth or also our own affects on the earth , France , and. Now Spain and one other EU nation are banning short haul flights where there is a suitable high speed rail alternative, as no matter how good the new crop of regional jets that can also perform. Long haul flights, like the A220, and eve. The Embraer E2 195's , both of which are much larger than the original 737's .

They are very fuel efficient and less damaging to the environment, but by the time you've gone through security and reached your airport gate plus the requirement to be at an airport at least two hours before the flight , means a train can actually be quicker and aside from London city , trains take you direct to a city , town or village you want to go to .so I think this idea for the tunnels is probably a good one , on the fearo islands, their airport was extended, its runway made longer to accept larger Airbus aircraft , boeing 737's abd the Embraer ejets .
However the airport itself was built on an island and before you had to take a ferry that made it a very long trip . The tunnels they built , have reduced ferry use , apart from some services that remain popular, but with the airport also having a large new terminal, and is offering a lot of choice of routes , until the road tunnel opened it didn't help the airport grow as it has until the tunnels were built .
The idea for tunnels to link the channel Islands , will be great , as recently air France and a new startup airline , ha e started flights to brest airport and other Northern french airports from the UK for example , but Brest airport is not very well placed and you then need to take a train if you want to go to Paris , also the only way to get to the channel Islands is ferry or plane .
The channel tunnel has definitely helped matters , and proved that such tunnels can help be an alternative for flights , a d also allows travel into central London from Amsterdam , Paris and other EU nations .

So I don't see why it's. A bad idea for a new rail tunnel to the channel islands, although one would hope they have a tunnel between each island , to make this worth while . It would be even better if it were possible to have a tunnel from the islands to the UK rail network.

Of course there is the matter of what types of trains you'd see, I can't imagine Eurostar length trains , perhaps. More like the Hitachi units, which at a top speed of 140mph are plenty fast enough, the class 395's are the commuter version of the class 800 series . Indeed the class 810 is closer in design to the 395's .
I say this as the channel islands are relatively small , and would need trains to suit.
It would also reduce the use of diesel ferries that pollute the atmosphere.
The only thing that seems to be something that isn't being very clear is the cost of these projects , as it's not just a tunnel needed but suitable rolling stock as I have said .

It only makes more sense of they can tunnel to the south coast and link to the rest of the rail network in the UK .

So a great idea in principle but there is a lot that's been left out eg rolling stock , the locations and costs of new stations , and also damaging the beauty of the islands ( just look at the scars on the landscape as they build the pointless HS2 project .
It will need serious money from the EU and UK
So it remains to be seen if this project will come to pass .

I‘m assuming this is an early entry for this year’s ‘Most irrational leaps of logic in a single post’ award.
 

zwk500

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Joined
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Even if we discount electric planes as silly (which I personally do), battery-electric hovercraft would be able to decarbonise a lot of these journeys without requiring massive railway tunnels or viaducts.
I think Jersey-France is probably practical as a viaduct because of how shallow it is, but the water between Guernsey and Jersey is much much deeper
According to this chart: https://fishing-app.gpsnauticalchar...and+Herm+boating+app#11.18/49.3467/-2.3631The water between Jersey and France is c.20-25m deep, while Jersey to Guernsey is c.50m deep. The Strait of Dover is about 40m deep at it's maximum point (although a lot longer, I grant).
 

AlastairFraser

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This is as bonkers as Johnson’s tunnel from Scotland to Ireland.
Not at all. The Irish Sea is a lot deeper between Stranraer and Larne, and there's no Beaufort's Dyke to contend with between France and Jersey.

The main question is - can the States and the Bailiwick afford it in the medium term, or could European Investment Bank development loans help here?
 

mike57

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East coast of Yorkshire
Whist it's got backers, I feel that this part of the forum maybe better suited to this discussion:
I really think you need a 'Cloud Cuckoo Land' forum for this one. Apart from the huge elephant in the room, cost, because the channel tunnel cost ~£9 billion at 1994 prices.

What about all the legal and government issues? Jersey and Guernsey are semi independant and about 20 miles apart from each other, and each have their own governments.

What about onward infrastructure on the French side, its no good having a tunnel finishing in the middle of nowhere. Where would services start and stop? Paris? Granville, which is the nearest railhead as far as I can see is 3.5 to 4hrs from Paris, although there is a single track branch line which passes through Coutances. I could see the French wanting a subsidy to run through trains from their side.

Who would use it? Certainly from the UK the journey would be roundabout and pointless, easier to just get the ferry or fly. And even if you could get 50% of the 'off lslands' passengers, which given the geography I mentioned above would be a strech, how many would this amount to?
 

edwin_m

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Nottingham
Considering neither Jersey nor Guernsey has had a railway since before WW2, the cost of building one would have to be added in too, and I suspect the ramps down to any tunnel would stretch across quite a lot of each island!
 

zwk500

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Bristol
An electric STOL airline shuttle service will almost certainly be better value for money than any fixed infrastructure link.
 

Wolfie

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HS2 connecting large centres of population is pointless, but a 70 mile tunnel to the Channel Islands is a "great idea"? Really?
You beat me to it!

I really think you need a 'Cloud Cuckoo Land' forum for this one. Apart from the huge elephant in the room, cost, because the channel tunnel cost ~£9 billion at 1994 prices.

What about all the legal and government issues? Jersey and Guernsey are semi independant and about 20 miles apart from each other, and each have their own governments.

What about onward infrastructure on the French side, its no good having a tunnel finishing in the middle of nowhere. Where would services start and stop? Paris? Granville, which is the nearest railhead as far as I can see is 3.5 to 4hrs from Paris, although there is a single track branch line which passes through Coutances. I could see the French wanting a subsidy to run through trains from their side.

Who would use it? Certainly from the UK the journey would be roundabout and pointless, easier to just get the ferry or fly. And even if you could get 50% of the 'off lslands' passengers, which given the geography I mentioned above would be a strech, how many would this amount to?
Re your second para given the existence of the Common Travel Area you better believe that HMG would want to be involved in any discussions.
 

HSTEd

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According to this chart: https://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com/i-boating-fishing-web-app/fishing-marine-charts-navigation.html?title=Channel+Islands+-+Guernsey,+Sark+and+Herm+boating+app#11.18/49.3467/-2.3631The water between Jersey and France is c.20-25m deep, while Jersey to Guernsey is c.50m deep. The Strait of Dover is about 40m deep at it's maximum point (although a lot longer, I grant).
The chart shows a path from Jersey to France that doesn't go much below 10m, departing near La Rocque.

I think that is a route technically (if not economically) viable for a viaduct of some kind.
It comes ashore near Gouville-sur-Mer
 

zwk500

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What about all the legal and government issues? Jersey and Guernsey are semi independant and about 20 miles apart from each other, and each have their own governments.
Jersey and Guernsey are Crown Dependencies, the UK government is responsible for their defence and has authority over a large amount of their foreign affairs. As mentioned there's the CTA, and there's also the question of funding.
The chart shows a path from Jersey to France that doesn't go much below 10m, departing near La Rocque.

I think that is a route technically (if not economically) viable for a viaduct of some kind.
It comes ashore near Gouville-sur-Mer
10m would also potentially be viable for an immersed tube, wouldn't it? Not sure about length for that with ventilation and evacuation though.
 

eldomtom2

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I don't know why the BBC article calls it a rail tunnel - the much longer and more detailed Jersey Evening Post article makes no mention of rail:
AFTER years of being derided as the crazed musings of cranks and dreamers, the possibility of a tunnel linking Jersey to Guernsey and France is now firmly back on the agenda.
At a breakfast briefing organised by the Jersey Chamber of Commerce yesterday, world experts on so-called “sub-sea fixed links” from Scandinavia explained why it was not just possible, but desirable.
They said that a tunnel could be completed in around seven years at a cost of between £10,000 and £50,000 per metre, with journey times of 15 minutes between Jersey and Guernsey, and 17 minutes between Jersey and France.
The distance between Jersey and France is around 20km, so the capital cost of the southern tunnel might range from between £200 million and £1 billion.
It was argued that a tunnel, as improbable as it sounded, could offer a viable solution to many of the potentially existential challenges the islands faced.
Those solutions included enabling workers to commute from areas of France with high unemployment to stoke the economy and care for an ageing population, securing food and freight supply lines and easing inflationary pressures.
A tunnel could also address the housing crisis, which would be exacerbated by the thousands of extra workers needed over the coming decades, without having to concrete over many more green fields or constructing skyscrapers.
There was potential, the audience was told, to deliver affordable public services in collaboration with Guernsey and France without the need for significant tax raises, to offer a much-needed boost for tourism and improve the quality of life of Islanders.
Other economic spin-offs included Jersey Airport becoming a major hub for people in northern France and Guernsey.
In October last year, Economic Development Minister Kirsten Morel announced that the government was investigating the feasibility of a bridge or tunnel to France.
Addressing the audience yesterday, Deputy Morel warned that the islands could not leave it until it was too late to start making critical decisions.
“As with any challenge like this, it is something that creeps up on you,” he said. “Every day it becomes slightly more serious.”
Chamber chief executive Murray Norton said that it was important to start a sensible conversation that “could be the start of a very long journey” – despite the many “naysayers” who had sought to rubbish the idea on social media.
“We are always told to think big, so it’s right that we have this conversation today,” he said, adding “Do we have tunnel vision or a tunnel vision?”
 

AlastairFraser

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I don't know why the BBC article calls it a rail tunnel - the much longer and more detailed Jersey Evening Post article makes no mention of rail:
One of the local politician proponents, Martyn Dorey, favours a rail line I believe. Although a road tunnel with frequent buses may be a better plan.
 

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