Strensall station should've been built, not Haxby

HST43257 · 5 Mar 2024

As per the title, though it's probably something of an insult to even call that station Haxby given how far north it is.

Strensall is 2 minutes further out of York by rail, but has much worse bus usage I hear, because it takes a fair bit longer and stops a lot (given it covers a longer distance).

Why couldn't the station have been built at Strensall? The curly bridge site could've accomodated lifts if the station were to be in the Park Estate area, or any level crossing in the village would be fine for step free.

Instead, we have a silly excuse for a Haxby station - where people will have to walk a distance to even get to the station, to then get to the more wrong side of York, not much quicker than the bus. Not to mention that the houses they want to build are still several fields across from the station site with potentially no corner cutting route to the station so they'll have a lovely long walk as well to get there - Forget it. It's a park and ride for no-one, and it's no use to locals.

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YorkRailFan · 5 Mar 2024

I used to go to Strensall from Holgate Road on Thursdays for over a year by bus, it used to take roughly one hour, whilst the train would take under 10 minutes. Strensall gets 5/5A every 15 minutes Monday-Saturday throughout the day (drops to 30 minutes on Sundays and evenings, before hourly towards late evening). Haxby gets 1 every 10 minutes and 13 every 30 minutes. The bus to Strensall takes so long because of a few reasons, firstly there's the bottleneck at Gillygate and it is a nightmare at any time of day. Secondly, 5/5A serves most of Huntington and often stops at every bus stop for pick up/drop off through Huntington. Often on the bus, I would think that I would've loved a train to Strensall, often whilst waiting on the bus at the level crossing for a train to come through Strensall.

On the topic of a Park & Ride, Strensall could be a Park & Ride for the surrounding area which includes Flaxton, Claxton, Sheriff Hutton and more.

30907 · 5 Mar 2024

HST43257 said:
As per the title, though it's probably something of an insult to even call that station Haxby given how far north it is.

Approximately level with the village centre and no more than 1 level mile from anywhere in Haxby/Wigginton (even right down York Road, where the bus will be more convenient anyway).

HST43257 said:
Strensall is 2 minutes further out of York by rail, but has much worse bus usage I hear, because it takes a fair bit longer and stops a lot (given it covers a longer distance).

Google says it takes about 3 minutes longer - buses to the middle of Haxby take a (tedious, from memory) detour through the housing estates .

HST43257 said:
Why couldn't the station have been built at Strensall? The curly bridge site could've accomodated lifts if the station were to be in the Park Estate area, or any level crossing in the village would be fine for step free.

Maybe the fact that Strensall is 1/3 the size of Haxby/Wigginton?

HST43257 said:
Instead, we have a silly excuse for a Haxby station - where people will have to walk a distance to even get to the station, to then get to the more wrong side of York, not much quicker than the bus.

Wouldn't that be a problem from Strensall too?

The main problem, of course, is that Haxby needs a decent (half-hourly) train service to compete with the bus (or cycle).

EDIT: my apologies, now I read the main thread I realised that the site isn't at the old station on Towthorpe Road, but well to the north. It does look more like a P+R location. Not that it makes Strensall a better location.

mangyiscute · 5 Mar 2024

Rather than just either, why not build both - I believe both stations would be able to support healthy passenger numbers to justify the cost - that's something we see time and time again, and stations are being built in much worse locations than either of those imo (see reston and east linton, smaller places with a worse service provided too). A fast link to York station would be great for onwards travel, as York has so many connections, even if it isn't ideal for travelling into york city centre

HST43257 · 5 Mar 2024

30907 said:
Approximately level with the village centre and no more than 1 level mile from anywhere in Haxby/Wigginton (even right down York Road, where the bus will be more convenient anyway).

Google says it takes about 3 minutes longer - buses to the middle of Haxby take a (tedious, from memory) detour through the housing estates .

Maybe the fact that Strensall is 1/3 the size of Haxby/Wigginton?

Wouldn't that be a problem from Strensall too?

The main problem, of course, is that Haxby needs a decent (half-hourly) train service to compete with the bus (or cycle).

Ok I could have explained better. Traffic seems to have a lot more of an effect on the 5 to Strensall than the 1 to Haxby. I’ve also heard somewhere (don’t ask) that the 1 is a lot better used than the 5, even in relation to their populations, so something must be up to make that be. Sure the station positioning is an issue of sorts regardless, but only because the time saving from haxby becomes especially minimal.

mangyiscute said:
Rather than just either, why not build both - I believe both stations would be able to support healthy passenger numbers to justify the cost - that's something we see time and time again, and stations are being built in much worse locations than either of those imo (see reston and east linton, smaller places with a worse service provided too). A fast link to York station would be great for onwards travel, as York has so many connections, even if it isn't ideal for travelling into york city centre

The time penalty. You wouldn’t put in extra services for just those stations, and you can’t have to much of an impact on Scarborough services. Reston and East Linton should not have both been built imo, one of them at most, so I can’t use them as a justification.

YorkRailFan · 5 Mar 2024

HST43257 said:
Ok I could have explained better. Traffic seems to have a lot more of an effect on the 5 to Strensall than the 1 to Haxby. I’ve also heard somewhere (don’t ask) that the 1 is a lot better used than the 5, even in relation to their populations, so something must be up to make that be. Sure the station positioning is an issue of sorts regardless, but only because the time saving from haxby becomes especially minimal.

That's due to high volumes of passengers in Huntington.

mangyiscute · 5 Mar 2024

The trains have plenty of turn around time at Scarborough, and I don't think adding an extra 5 mins to that journey time is going to cause much of an issue in terms of people travelling on the trains - it is the debate of speed vs calling at more stations.
Personally I think this line would benefit most from some price reductions, whenever i've looked at the cost of walk up fares from York to Scarborough or intermediate stations it always seems rather expensive.

YorkRailFan · 5 Mar 2024

mangyiscute said:
The trains have plenty of turn around time at Scarborough, and I don't think adding an extra 5 mins to that journey time is going to cause much of an issue in terms of people travelling on the trains - it is the debate of speed vs calling at more stations.
Personally I think this line would benefit most from some price reductions, whenever i've looked at the cost of walk up fares from York to Scarborough or intermediate stations it always seems rather expensive.

Trains currently get ~40 minutes turn around in Scarborough. Walk up fares are ridiculous, especially now that Coastliner offers £2 tickets, also with a 1x hourly frequency but takes longer.

stevieinselby · 5 Mar 2024

HST43257 said:
As per the title, though it's probably something of an insult to even call that station Haxby given how far north it is.

Strensall is 2 minutes further out of York by rail, but has much worse bus usage I hear, because it takes a fair bit longer and stops a lot (given it covers a longer distance).

Why couldn't the station have been built at Strensall? The curly bridge site could've accomodated lifts if the station were to be in the Park Estate area, or any level crossing in the village would be fine for step free.

Instead, we have a silly excuse for a Haxby station - where people will have to walk a distance to even get to the station, to then get to the more wrong side of York, not much quicker than the bus. Not to mention that the houses they want to build are still several fields across from the station site with potentially no corner cutting route to the station so they'll have a lovely long walk as well to get there - Forget it. It's a park and ride for no-one, and it's no use to locals.

The bus from Haxby shops is only about 3 minutes quicker to York city centre than the bus from Strensall village centre – largely because it takes a very circuitous route out of Haxby – so I don't think there's any grounds for saying that passengers from Strensall get a raw deal on the bus. Both routes typically run every 15–20 minutes (although like most First routes the actual frequency and headway is derived from a random number generator). Haxby is twice the size of Strensall. And people living in Strensall may choose to drive to Haxby station to get the train to York, but if it was the other way round I can't imagine anyone in Haxby would drive out to Strensall.

Yes, I share your frustration with the local of the station, it's a long way out from the town and I would have preferred to see it closer in. But there will be a shared use path running from the northbound platform to the Usher Park estate, which will provide some mitigation for the distance.

It will be interesting to see if there's any demand for a bus from Strensall to Haxby, to connect residents of both areas with the new station once it's built.

HST43257 · 5 Mar 2024

stevieinselby said:
It will be interesting to see if there's any demand for a bus from Strensall to Haxby, to connect residents of both areas with the new station once it's built.

It’d be a truly typical thing if they didn’t put in this bus. Would be shooting themselves in the foot surely if they left the station unconnected from Strensall.

stevieinselby · 5 Mar 2024

HST43257 said:
It’d be a truly typical thing if they didn’t put in this bus. Would be shooting themselves in the foot surely if they left the station unconnected from Strensall.

I doubt that First York would put a bus on commercially, as it could draw passengers away from the 1 and 5/5A.
Connexions are pulling the 13 back from West Nooks, which will then be served by a once-per-hour diversion to the 1, which could easily be adapted to serve the new station, but unlikely that First would gear the entire timetable of the 1 around providing a connection off one branch that they don't really want to make.
So it would almost certainly need to be subsidised by the council (also, not least because it probably wouldn't attract enough passengers to be commercially viable), and that will depend how the council finances are looking in 2 years' time, which is anyone's guess.

It's depressingly common for new stations to be built with full interchange facilities for local buses and then to be barely used by buses if at all (cf Barry Docks, Thanet Parkway, Robroyston) – it's obviously a box that has to be ticked on the funding application that the station must facilitate multi-modal travel, without any requirement for ensuring that any bus provision is actually made.

IanXC · 6 Mar 2024

Under a previous administration at City of York Council the site selection for Haxby ruled out the historic (central) location for the new station on the basis that it would not serve Strensall. The concept that a central Haxby station and then later a Strensall station was entirely alien to the Tory councillors representing that area.

It's also worth saying that early versions of the project included line speed improvements meaning that the journey time York-Scarborough and v.v. would remain the same despite the additional stop.

Dr Day · 6 Mar 2024

Haxby Station Project – City of York Council

Find out about the Haxby Station Project and it's plans to reinstate a train station in Haxby.

www.york.gov.uk

Seems to indicate that considerable public consultation was carried out and a strategic business case completed. The latter would have had to set out the problem (eg traffic congestion into York), high level alternatives to solve it (eg more or faster buses, new station, wider road) and then for the preferred generic option sub-options around site locations and which services called.

From an outsider’s perspective, this all appears to have been analysed, and due democratic process applied.

nill · 6 Mar 2024

The station in Haxby should be built imo, but should have been called "Haxby & Strensall" as it serves both. A bus service linking Strensall, Haxby & Wigginton together would only need one small bus to achieve an every 30 minute service between them all. As someone who lives very near Haxby and go there quite a lot I know that this service would get good enough usage to be profitable as there are many in Strensall who would use it to get to the many shops in Haxby nevermind getting to the station.

Kingfisher68 · 7 Mar 2024

HST43257 said:
As per the title, though it's probably something of an insult to even call that station Haxby given how far north it is.

Strensall is 2 minutes further out of York by rail, but has much worse bus usage I hear, because it takes a fair bit longer and stops a lot (given it covers a longer distance).

Why couldn't the station have been built at Strensall? The curly bridge site could've accomodated lifts if the station were to be in the Park Estate area, or any level crossing in the village would be fine for step free.

Instead, we have a silly excuse for a Haxby station - where people will have to walk a distance to even get to the station, to then get to the more wrong side of York, not much quicker than the bus. Not to mention that the houses they want to build are still several fields across from the station site with potentially no corner cutting route to the station so they'll have a lovely long walk as well to get there - Forget it. It's a park and ride for no-one, and it's no use to locals.

1) There's absolutely no site in Strensall which is suitable. This was all explored in 1996
2) The proposed station site in Haxby is easily walkable/cyclable from most of Haxby via Usher Park Rd
3) The proposed station site is owned by City of York Council
4) The proposed station site has enough space for over 150 car parking spaces
5) The station is not intended for commuting into York. It is intended to allow travellers to access the wider rail network from a convenient location without having to negotiate (and add to) city centre traffic
6) Strensall is half the size of Haxby/Wigginton (not a third as quoted elsewhere)
7) Putting the station north of Haxby will keep all traffic from Strensall and the villages further north out of the centre of Haxby

Kingfisher68 · 7 Mar 2024

nill said:
The station in Haxby should be built imo, but should have been called "Haxby & Strensall" as it serves both. A bus service linking Strensall, Haxby & Wigginton together would only need one small bus to achieve an every 30 minute service between them all. As someone who lives very near Haxby and go there quite a lot I know that this service would get good enough usage to be profitable as there are many in Strensall who would use it to get to the many shops in Haxby nevermind getting to the station.

100% correct

30907 · 7 Mar 2024

Kingfisher68 said:
100% correct

Yes, would make sense, though from present schedules I think you'd struggle with one vehicle on a 30-min interval. Googlemaps is giving me 12min by car. You might need to interwork with one of the York routes.

Grimsby town · 7 Mar 2024

Kingfisher68 said:
1) There's absolutely no site in Strensall which is suitable. This was all explored in 1996
2) The proposed station site in Haxby is easily walkable/cyclable from most of Haxby via Usher Park Rd
3) The proposed station site is owned by City of York Council
4) The proposed station site has enough space for over 150 car parking spaces
5) The station is not intended for commuting into York. It is intended to allow travellers to access the wider rail network from a convenient location without having to negotiate (and add to) city centre traffic
6) Strensall is half the size of Haxby/Wigginton (not a third as quoted elsewhere)
7) Putting the station north of Haxby will keep all traffic from Strensall and the villages further north out of the centre of Haxby

Agree with all this. The 2011 census also had a decent number of commuters travelling to Leeds from the area. A Haxby Station would be make this far quicker particularly if direct trains are provided.

York Central, which is finally moving forward, is another potential destination for rail passengers. For York City Centre, the bus is likely to remain the mode of choice.

nill · 7 Mar 2024

30907 said:
Yes, would make sense, though from present schedules I think you'd struggle with one vehicle on a 30-min interval. Googlemaps is giving me 12min by car. You might need to interwork with one of the York

Maybe a 40/45 min frequency would be better? Google maps does over predict the travel times and I think that there is time to do this if you do a loop in both Haxby/Wigginton & Strensall. Not saying that it'll be a comfy time table, but possible.

30907 · 7 Mar 2024

Kingfisher68 said:
Strensall is half the size of Haxby/Wigginton (not a third as quoted elsewhere).

Depends what you measure!
For a station in Strensall I used the 4k figure for Strensall parish, for Haxby North the 6k of Strensall w Towthorpe (which I presume you used)is relevant.

dodecahedron67 · 7 Mar 2024

HST43257 said:
Ok I could have explained better. Traffic seems to have a lot more of an effect on the 5 to Strensall than the 1 to Haxby. I’ve also heard somewhere (don’t ask) that the 1 is a lot better used than the 5, even in relation to their populations, so something must be up to make that be. Sure the station positioning is an issue of sorts regardless, but only because the time saving from haxby becomes especially minimal.

1 is the second busiest city bus route in York after 4s

MarkyT · 7 Mar 2024

IMHO, the new Haxby is a rubbish site for a station to serve the existing village itself, although for a role as a parkway for the wider area it clearly has some value. Psychologically if you lived in the village you probably wouldn't instinctively want to walk, cycle or even drive a kilometer or more in the wrong direction, away from York, to reach the station. There was a similar issue with Ivybridge in Devon. The dominant job, education and retail destination there is Plymouth while the station is out of town on the Exeter side, and patronage was slow to pick up and is still disappointing compared to many other rail-served settlements in Devon. To be fair, Ivybridge would be difficult wherever they put the station mainly due to the large height difference between the railway, up on the hillside, crossing viaducts, and most of the housing down in the valley.

What may be driving Haxby's proposed location to an extent is future housing development in the fields between Haxby and Strensall for which the station would be very convenient.

'Safety' fears over major York homes scheme brings government call to delay decision

GOVERNMENT transport chiefs are demanding a major housing scheme north of York is not approved until next February at the earliest over safety fears.

www.yorkpress.co.uk

National Highways demands more details on Haxby North 800 homes plan
...
GOVERNMENT transport chiefs are demanding a major housing scheme north of York is not approved until next February at the earliest over safety fears.
The call comes as plans for 800 homes north of Haxby face a backlash from parish councils, more than 100 residents, Sport England, York Civic Trust and others.

Remarkable that this fairly recent article, ostensibly about transport concerns, doesn't even mention the station scheme.

HST43257 · 7 Mar 2024

MarkyT said:
What may be driving Haxby's proposed location to an extent is future housing development in the fields between Haxby and Strensall for which the station would be very convenient.

'Safety' fears over major York homes scheme brings government call to delay decision

GOVERNMENT transport chiefs are demanding a major housing scheme north of York is not approved until next February at the earliest over safety fears.

www.yorkpress.co.uk

Remarkable that this fairly recent article, ostensibly about transport concerns, doesn't even mention the station scheme.

Having walked in the land near there, I’m not sure I’d expect the ground to be the easiest to work with - but I’m not qualified to make that assessment

stevieinselby · 7 Mar 2024

nill said:
Maybe a 40/45 min frequency would be better? Google maps does over predict the travel times and I think that there is time to do this if you do a loop in both Haxby/Wigginton & Strensall. Not saying that it'll be a comfy time table, but possible.

You could certainly do a round trip from Strensall and taking in a circuit of Haxby and Wigginton in 45 minutes, but if you're providing connections with an hourly train then the bus is going to need to fit that pattern. And depending on the timings, the bus might need to wait for some time at the station. Realistically, to provide good connections onto an hourly train from both Strensall and Haxby & Wigginton, you're going to need 2 buses running.

MarkyT said:
Psychologically if you lived in the village you probably wouldn't instinctively want to walk, cycle or even drive a kilometer or more in the wrong direction, away from York, to reach the station. There was a similar issue with Ivybridge in Devon.

One difference here is that most people from Ivybridge drive to Plymouth, whereas buses make up a much higher proportion for people travelling from Haxby to York ... so while psychologically it might feel like you're going in the wrong direction, if you know that you've got a 10–15 minute walk and then a 5 minute train journey, or you've got a 30 minute bus ride, the maths isn't hard to do.

30907 · 8 Mar 2024

stevieinselby said:
One difference here is that most people from Ivybridge drive to Plymouth, whereas buses make up a much higher proportion for people travelling from Haxby to York ... so while psychologically it might feel like you're going in the wrong direction, if you know that you've got a 10–15 minute walk and then a 5 minute train journey, or you've got a 30 minute bus ride, the maths isn't hard to do.

From the Northern half of Haxby, the station probably works for York traffic as well as longer distances (Leeds commuters, London business travel, leisure...). The nearer York you live, the less attractive it gets - but I suspect the old station site would only be marginally better.

MarkyT · 8 Mar 2024

stevieinselby said:
One difference here is that most people from Ivybridge drive to Plymouth, whereas buses make up a much higher proportion for people travelling from Haxby to York ... so while psychologically it might feel like you're going in the wrong direction, if you know that you've got a 10–15 minute walk and then a 5 minute train journey, or you've got a 30 minute bus ride, the maths isn't hard to do.

I don't know about comparative usage, but there are also good Plymouth bus services in Ivybridge, the half-hourly Stagecoach Gold from Paignton and two hourly Citybus routes. The buses are all far more convenient for most people in the town than the railway station, although some estates on the east side of town are a short walk away without too much of a climb.

Strensall station should've been built, not Haxby

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