Arguably the carriages are in worse condition than the power cars. In quite a lot of cases the roofs are more patch than original panel and leaky. The engines themselves are a lot newer than any of the other parts, and are significantly more efficient and less polluting than several of the alternatives being suggested here. Any half-solution which replaced part of the train would just end up with the rest of the train in use long beyond 2030, and I'm not sure anybody wants that.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Scotrail HST alternatives?
- Thread starter Christmas
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Killingworth
Established Member
Half seriously, we may find a couple of rakes of the best carriages and power cars made into a maroon Highland Pullman set with reserves to operate the Jacobite until 2050!
GLC
Member
- Joined
- 21 Nov 2018
- Messages
- 298
And for the 385s, Scotrail leased them directly from Hitachi for 35 years I believe, no ROSCO involved
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,366
Page 19 of this doucment gives the details for the ScotRail fleet: https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...+Grant+Agreement+-+24+June+2022_Published.pdf
The 385s are on lease to March 2025, with a Section 54 through to December 2044 (yes, you read that right).
Further thought on an 810-based solution. Rather than 4 gensets, make it 2 gensets and 2 battery rafts. So long as the control systems allow the batteries to become fully charged before the ascents of Drumochter and Slochd....
I have a question, I saw this week 7th or 8th of January a photo and story stating Scotrail driver training was underway using GWR green liveried HST's sets it wasn't from years ago but from.what was said these had been ones GWR had mothballed , and ate now in Scotland, I'm guessing maybe to replace the carmont set , or provide additional sets, as I also had confirmed by a Facebook group where one of the members who's a Scotrail train driver confirmed they are using hst's for training on the leven line , I wondered if this is because, Scotrail apparently have a shortage of 158's which are what will be used on the leven line , it me toned also that the far north has shortages , hence I figure they must be planning to use the hat sets on the levenine, and I'd wager they'd be needed as well , because there will be a lot of people looking to try out the new line as well as folk using them to go to work , shopping etc .
Also seems a waste to build platforms long enough for full sized tourist trains , not to take advantage of the longer platforms.
And if it is the case that HST's will run to leven they'd probably be at peak hours like the old 68/mark2F sets that were so popular.
Anyway if anyone can shed any light on this I'd be greatful
Also seems a waste to build platforms long enough for full sized tourist trains , not to take advantage of the longer platforms.
And if it is the case that HST's will run to leven they'd probably be at peak hours like the old 68/mark2F sets that were so popular.
Anyway if anyone can shed any light on this I'd be greatful
ScotRail used HSTs from GWR in classic configuration (slam doors, unrefurbished) for a while due to delays to the introduction of the now completed refurbishmed sets. Hence why one or two 'Green' sets were used - though the majority were FGW 'blue' sets.
HSTs are being used for gauge testing on the line and to establish stop markers, something which will take place for 170s too in time. This isn't anything other than for contingency planning in the same way the HSTs were also tested in and around the Fife Circle when they first came up to ScotRail.
3 x 158s have more seats than a 5-car HST and do not have the wastage of space caused by the power cars or the intercity seating configuration. The length of the platforms being as they are is for future proofing for such time as demand rises and train lengths increase in the decades ahead.
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,366
It was from years ago. There’s no GWR liveried sets with ScotRail and the Carmont set is not being replaced, nor are there any additional sets being provided.
That sounds great, do you please have a link ?
Go to the Stations and Infrastructure subforum and it's on the front page. Then in the thread it's currently the top post. (Edit: I meant the last, most recent, post, of course. But it was also top of the latest page.)
Levenmouth rail link to reopen: project updates
There a few videos of trains in Leven on YouTube, here are a couple:
www.railforums.co.uk
Last edited:
northscots
Member
They've long since been scavaged for spare parts. Also platform capacity issues at Inverness and Queen Street mean they're never going to come into use.
Last edited:
jagardner1984
Member
- Joined
- 11 May 2008
- Messages
- 681
Rather unfortunate then that of the platforms the HSTs do occupy at either location, 35.58m of space is occupied by passenger free zones* !
*Albeit rather important ones for their ongoing movement - but perhaps another factor in their suitability going forward …..
northscots
Member
I've been made aware they'll be a new fleet plan and updated timescale for electrification released in the next month.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
Place your bets on cast off meridians, super voyagers, caradias and 350s from the evil hated reviled English, plus major mid-life refurbishment of the turbo staff fleet and yet another life extension to sprinters and 320s and 334 also refurbished. I know some of these are less relevant to this thread but would have a bearing on it in terms of playing musical trains to get rid of the HST shaped elephants in the room
My own opinion 
Hst's are on lease until 2030 so will probably stay in service with 170's and 158's for backups
After 2030 subject to line clearance I could see Voyagers doing the Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness and Inverness to Aberdeen until they get battery trains for the line.
After 2030 on the Aberdeen line however would be different because they are planning to electrify up to Aberdeen in most places but the Forth Bridge and Tay Bridge, so maybe some 805's on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen line.
Once again these are my own opinion
Hst's are on lease until 2030 so will probably stay in service with 170's and 158's for backups
After 2030 subject to line clearance I could see Voyagers doing the Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness and Inverness to Aberdeen until they get battery trains for the line.
After 2030 on the Aberdeen line however would be different because they are planning to electrify up to Aberdeen in most places but the Forth Bridge and Tay Bridge, so maybe some 805's on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen line.
Once again these are my own opinion
Blindtraveler
Established Member
Where is my money is on the electrification being vastly scaled back, the concept of multimode battery units presumably having come back far too expensive and or difficult to implement and a back to the drawing board approach taken primarily based on cost
Have they scaled it back?
My thoughts that I just posted were on the original plans?
Not good for Scotland if they have
Charged up
Member
Probably scaled back because NwR cannot deliver OHL for the mythical £1M per stk even in areas which would seem to be "easier" along the GLC-EK/ Barrhead lines. The railway network is already too expensive and this additional capital cost plus future operational/ maintenance cost is unsustainable for the creaking SG budget.Have they scaled it back?
My thoughts that I just posted were on the original plans?
Not good for Scotland if they have
That will be welcome. The Traction Decarbonisation Plan Refresh was originally promised for spring 2023, then by the end of 2023.
As frequently discussed in several electrification-related and rolling stock related threads, implementation of the original Traction Decarbonisation Plan for Scotland, published in summer 2020, appears to have been dramatically slowed down in the last year or so, because of the extremely severe financial situation. Network Rail and the Scottish Government have been very coy about giving details about what proposals have been dropped or slowed, and about what is now proposed after the East Kilbride line. The first of the three stages of rolling stock procurement may be about a year late - in summer 2022 it was forecast to happen in 2022-3.Have they scaled it back?
My thoughts that I just posted were on the original plans?
Not good for Scotland if they have
Hopefully we will get more info when the Refresh is published.
Last edited:
38 days later and still no sign of these.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Scottish Govt or specifically new SNP team have finally woken up and realised that health, education and welfare has been poorly supported for too long and the 2024 budget is remedying that with increased funding at the expense of other depts. This is manifesting itself already with Strathclyde Partnership for Transport receiving no capital grant this financial year outside of what is already contractually committed which was unexpected. So i suspect there is wider impact which means the whole strategy for rolling stock and electrification is going through a significant re prioritisation and moving right down the timeline.
I was thinking the same.
Evidence that that is happening has been mounting for about a year now and discussed in various threads.
However, even after the PM's cancellation of much of HS2 in October, and the UK chancellor's autumn statement in November, and the Scottish budget in December, it was still being said that the decarbonisation strategy refresh, and an announcement on rolling stock stategy, were imminent.
Since then we have had the recent UK budget and my fear is that that has been a further blow to prospects of anything much happening in the next few years. East Kilbride wiring is due for completion by the end of 2025 - will there be another scheme to follow it? Feeder stations are due to be commissioned at at Thornton and Tweedbank by September 2026 - when will there be anything to use them?
Last edited:
I may be misremembering, but I thought Hunt said that Scotland would be getting a few hundreds of millions extra in Barnett consequentials.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Not in Sept 2026 is for sure but the problem NR had was lead time for both equipment and outages on the grid is measured in years so commitments had to be made based on the proposed strategy. Trouble is now money is tight they have all these connection agreements with Scottish Power that have to paid for not leaving much left in the kitty.
The contract for 6 feeder stations (Elderslie/Ferguslie, Currie, Newton, Portobello, Thornton, Tweedbank) was signed in summer 2022 when Scotgov/Scotrail were bullish about the decarbonisation programme. Originally all 6 of them were supposed to be commissioned by Nov 2024 or earlier!
chuff chuff
Member
- Joined
- 25 Sep 2018
- Messages
- 465
SNP urged to reverse ‘savage cuts’ after Chancellor hands Scotland extra £300m
Tories say ‘there can be no excuses for not providing excellent public services’ after funding boost
www.telegraph.co.uk
I expect the extra revenue funding to be spent on health and local government. It’s possible some of it will be transferred to the capital budget but the Scottish Government has said housing is the priority for any additional capital spending, which is understandable given the acute shortage of affordable homes.