Did I do something wrong?

flashberry43 · 15 Mar 2024

Hi all,

Tonight whilst exciting Victoria I was stopped after scanning my Oyster card at the barrier to leave the underground station. The officer identified himself as revenue enforcement and asked to see my Oyster card. Beyond it being an Elizabeth line special, nothing fancy about it at all. He then asked to see my Railcard.

I showed him it, which is on the TrainLine app, and he said this does not match that which is on my Oyster card.

I gave him my details, and he said I'd hear from TFL if there is an "irregularity" in the coming weeks.

I asked what the "irregularity" was and he said he could not say.

I have a railcard, and go between Acton Town and Victoria daily for work. I've never been stopped, and have always had an active railcard and have done since I was 22 (9 years bar covid!).

What could it be?

My thought process is thinking maybe the railcards do not match up? I had a 25-30 railcard expiring 31 Mar, through trip.com (still valid and on my phone) but bought a new one via TrainLine last week for one year. I showed this one not thinking of the other. I assume these have difference numbers? But can they even see the numbers? I showed him the new one - not the one expiring in two weeks so I fear herein the problem lies?

I assume it will sort itself out but should I be worried?

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WesternLancer · 15 Mar 2024

flashberry43 said:
Hi all,

Tonight whilst exciting Victoria I was stopped after scanning my Oyster card at the barrier to leave the underground station. The officer identified himself as revenue enforcement and asked to see my Oyster card. Beyond it being an Elizabeth line special, nothing fancy about it at all. He then asked to see my Railcard.

I showed him it, which is on the TrainLine app, and he said this does not match that which is on my Oyster card.

I gave him my details, and he said I'd hear from TFL if there is an "irregularity" in the coming weeks.

I asked what the "irregularity" was and he said he could not say.

I have a railcard, and go between Acton Town and Victoria daily for work. I've never been stopped, and have always had an active railcard and have done since I was 22 (9 years bar covid!).

What could it be?

My thought process is thinking maybe the railcards do not match up? I had a 25-30 railcard expiring 31 Mar, through trip.com (still valid and on my phone) but bought a new one via TrainLine last week for one year. I showed this one not thinking of the other. I assume these have difference numbers? But can they even see the numbers? I showed him the new one - not the one expiring in two weeks so I fear herein the problem lies?

I assume it will sort itself out but should I be worried?

Hi and welcome - I don't really know how digital railcards / work - interact with revenue digital scanners (I stick to a physical card which the inspector can only check by eyeball and brain interface :lol:

) but I suspect some issue has arisen whereby the scanner did not match the railcard you showed with the railcard that was used to purchase the ticket - as you say you have 2 railcards.

But if both railcards were in date and valid at the time of travel (and applied correctly to the fare concerned) then if they connect you I suspect you just need to retain proof that both cards were valid at the time of travel and the ticket was bought with one of the cards.

I suspect experts on digital railcards and TfL scanners will be along to advise more.

But can you clarify what the 2 different Railcards you have are (what type of Railcard) along with their respective expiry dates, I think your OP only states this in relation to one Railcard.

flashberry43 · 15 Mar 2024

WesternLancer said:
But can you clarify what the 2 different Railcards you have are (what type of Railcard) along with their respective expiry dates, I think your OP only states this in relation to one Railcard.

Indeed. And thank you so much for your prompt reply.

I’m looking now in the apps,

Trip.com
26-30 Railcard
Expires 31 March 2024

Trainline.com
26-30 Railcard
Expires 11 March 2025

I don’t recall ever giving the railcard number to a member of staff, bar the last nine digits two years ago. I fear this is the issue!

I should add, I checked my journey history and as much as the machine shows it is my mundane tap in tap out (nearly to the minute!) at each station.

WesternLancer · 15 Mar 2024

flashberry43 said:
Indeed. And thank you so much for your prompt reply.

I’m looking now in the apps,

Trip.com
26-30 Railcard
Expires 31 March 2024

Trainline.com
26-30 Railcard
Expires 11 March 2025

I don’t recall ever giving the railcard number to a member of staff, bar the last nine digits two years ago. I fear this is the issue!

So as at today you held 2 valid 26-30 railcards (pretty belt and braces

) - I do not think I've ever seen anything in conditions of travel that state a railcard ref number needs to match a ref number on a ticket - eg if you had paper equivalent ticket and paper equiv railcards there would be no ability to cross reference - which maybe can happen with digital ones.

So I suspect no offence has been committed.

Problem with TfL letters we see on here is they write saying you committed an offence on x date - but never bother to state what offence was....which is v unhelpful to recipients.

If you get one head back here on advice on how to reply - but I suspect you just enclose proof of a valid railcard held on date of travel.

I assume there is no other restriction on the use of the 26-30 railcard at the time of day you used it?

flashberry43 · 15 Mar 2024

WesternLancer said:
So as at today you held 2 valid 26-30 railcards (pretty belt and braces )

Indeed! If only double the discount.

WesternLancer said:
I assume there is no other restriction on the use of the 26-30 railcard at the time of day you used it?

Not that I can think of? Nothing indicated and it is just a standard railcard.

Every morning journey was tapped in an out going back as far as the system allows, as was the tap in and out on the way back. It’s weird seeing my life like this!

I suspect this is the issue but beyond a few Gatwick ventures, again correctly tapped in and out, I can’t fathom any other issue beyond the discrepancy in railcard numbers.

Thank you for your help, I’ve screenshotted the railcards if needs arise… the chap was rather vague about what would happen… but I’ll update in the (six weeks?) time it takes to process!

flashberry43 said:
Indeed! If only double the discount.

Not that I can think of? Nothing indicated and it is just a standard railcard.

Every morning journey was tapped in an out going back as far as the system allows, as was the tap in and out on the way back. It’s weird seeing my life like this!

I suspect this is the issue but beyond a few Gatwick ventures, again correctly tapped in and out, I can’t fathom any other issue beyond the discrepancy in railcard numbers.

Thank you for your help, I’ve screenshotted the railcards if needs arise… the chap was rather vague about what would happen… but I’ll update in the (six weeks?) time it takes to process!

And indeed. The railcard number is different in the bottom left!

WesternLancer said:
I assume there is no other restriction on the use of the 26-30 railcard at the time of day you used it?

Oh hang on! Yes, I can’t use it before 09:30 I think?

But TFL has always just charged the peak fare from my tap in (08:10) and off peak (with discount) from when I leave (19:05)

furlong · 16 Mar 2024

If you get a letter, write back enclosing the details of BOTH railcards explaining the overlapping validity and that you had both with you.

If it all checks out, that ought to be the end of the matter as you presented a valid railcard at the time.

When you got the new railcard, you needed to get your Oyster updated with the new details.

The inspector possibly picked up the differing expiry dates (and perhaps reference numbers) as a puzzle that required explanation and didn't want to go into any details as an internal TfL problem couldn't be ruled out.

MikeWh · 16 Mar 2024

When you get your railcard added to your Oyster card, the expiry date of the railcard is stored on the Oyster card. If they don't match then that would raise suspiscion that you were using someone elses railcard and/or Oyster card. As @furlong says, if you can explain the overlapping dates with proof that both railcards are yours then there shouldn't be a problem.

Moving forward, if you now want to show the newer railcard with your Oyster card then go to an Underground station and get them to update the expiry date so it matches.

talldave · 16 Mar 2024

Ticket barriers give an indication that a card with a discount is being used, which is why you were stopped. They presumably think this leads to easy pickings. However, you actually have to have the railcard in order for a member of staff to add it to your Oyster, so that doesn't make much sense. Hopefully they'll drop this once you can show the loaded railcard.

fandroid · 16 Mar 2024

MikeWh said:
When you get your railcard added to your Oyster card, the expiry date of the railcard is stored on the Oyster card. If they don't match then that would raise suspiscion that you were using someone elses railcard and/or Oyster card. As @furlong says, if you can explain the overlapping dates with proof that both railcards are yours then there shouldn't be a problem.

Moving forward, if you now want to show the newer railcard with your Oyster card then go to an Underground station and get them to update the expiry date so it matches.

I have always assumed that the Railcard discount would cease to be applied on Oyster transactions automatically after the Railcard expiry date. Is that correct?

Haywain · 16 Mar 2024

talldave said:
They presumably think this leads to easy pickings.

They have probably found that to be the case from their experience.

talldave said:
However, you actually have to have the railcard in order for a member of staff to add it to your Oyster, so that doesn't make much sense.

Because nobody ever uses an Oyster card belonging to someone else when they are not entitled to?

greyman42 · 16 Mar 2024

furlong said:
The inspector possibly picked up the differing expiry dates (and perhaps reference numbers) as a puzzle that required explanation and didn't want to go into any details as an internal TfL problem couldn't be ruled out.

Why would that stop the inspector offering an explanation to the OP as to why they had been stopped?

Snow1964 · 16 Mar 2024

From memory adding the railcard to oyster can only be done once at a time, it can't deal with overlaps, one has to end and next one be added.

In theory anyone working for TfL attending the barriers should be able to walk you over to a big ticket machine, they enter a staff code and add the railcard (you can't do it yourself, even though same machine as it needs the login).

However some staff are too lazy, or haven't bothered to do their training so not sure how to do it, or think it's beneath them (even though it's part of what they get paid for), more a failure of TfL station supervisors and management.

It shouldn't really be up to the customer with valid railcard to have to wait for a letter, then make another trip to a station in the hope someone will add the railcard, and if they won't repeat on another occasion. Doesn't say much for the Inspector choosing that course of action to make his/her life easy rather than adding it once they had seen it.

swt_passenger · 16 Mar 2024

Snow1964 said:
From memory adding the railcard to oyster can only be done once at a time, it can't deal with overlaps, one has to end and next one be added.

In theory anyone working for TfL attending the barriers should be able to walk you over to a big ticket machine, they enter a staff code and add the railcard (you can't do it yourself, even though same machine as it needs the login).

However some staff are too lazy, or haven't bothered to do their training so not sure how to do it, or think it's beneath them (even though it's part of what they get paid for), more a failure of TfL station supervisors and management.

It shouldn't really be up to the customer with valid railcard to have to wait for a letter, then make another trip to a station in the hope someone will add the railcard, and if they won't repeat on another occasion. Doesn't say much for the Inspector choosing that course of action to make his/her life easy rather than adding it once they had seen it.

There’s also that other slight issue where people get 3 year railcards added just before their start date, and the TfL system cannot load the true expiry date because it’s over 3 years in the future. If that isn’t subsequently corrected there’ll be a short period before expiry when the discount will not work.

Snow1964 · 16 Mar 2024

swt_passenger said:
There’s also that other slight issue where people get 3 year railcards added just before their start date, and the TfL system cannot load the true expiry date because it’s over 3 years in the future. If that isn’t subsequently corrected there’ll be a short period before expiry when the discount will not work.

And of course there are lots of Santander 4 year student railcards in circulation too (my daughter has one, now at 3.5 years into its validity)

LittleRedTrain · 16 Mar 2024

It's not unknown for TfL station staff to add the 'wrong' railcard discount onto an Oyster Card. (In my case, they added an 'NR Railcard' discount when they should have added a Disabled one, so my card got blocked and I had to spend a long time on the phone sorting it out).
I don't know if the TfL system distinguishes between 16-25 and 25-30 railcards.

It might be worth tapping your Oyster on a ticket machine and seeing what railcard discount it shows at the top of the screen.

Haywain · 16 Mar 2024

LittleRedTrain said:
I don't know if the TfL system distinguishes between 16-25 and 25-30 railcards.

It doesn't need to as they are both "NR Railcards". It sounds like the expiry date is the point of contention.

MikeWh · 16 Mar 2024

fandroid said:
I have always assumed that the Railcard discount would cease to be applied on Oyster transactions automatically after the Railcard expiry date. Is that correct?

Yes it is, but that isn't the case in this thread.

Snow1964 said:
From memory adding the railcard to oyster can only be done once at a time, it can't deal with overlaps, one has to end and next one be added.

It can't deal with overlaps, but you don't need to wait for the old one to expire, they just set the expiry date to the new one and off you go.

swt_passenger · 16 Mar 2024

MikeWh said:
Yes it is, but that isn't the case in this thread.

It can't deal with overlaps, but you don't need to wait for the old one to expire, they just set the expiry date to the new one and off you go.

Thing is, the OP says he’s had railcards attached to his Oyster card for 9 years, presumably successfully on a number of occasions, so he must already realise that his replacement card‘s number and expiry date needs adding by LU staff at a ticket machine?

IE if he’s not been doing that already, he wouldn‘t have been getting discounted fares? TfL have no idea what’s going on either in trip.com or in the Trainline App.

MikeWh · 16 Mar 2024

swt_passenger said:
Thing is, the OP says he’s had railcards attached to his Oyster card for 9 years, presumably successfully on a number of occasions, so he must already realise that his replacement card‘s number and expiry date needs adding by LU staff at a ticket machine?

IE if he’s not been doing that already, he wouldn‘t have been getting discounted fares? TfL have no idea what’s going on either in trip.com or in the Trainline App.

Yes,

It looks like the OP has bought a new (overlapping) railcard and showed the new one (with later expiry date) when asked by the inspector. I'm sure it can be resolved.

Did I do something wrong?

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