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London to Sheffield Any Permitted returns

J

JoeM1V

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Return tickets from London to Sheffield used to be available that were valid either direct on EMR from St Pancras, or up the ECML and changing at Doncaster.

With LNER’s move to single-leg pricing, these have all disappeared, and the Anytime Single is the only Any Permitted ticket left.

This creates a problem when wanting to travel outbound by one route and back via the other, as the Via Chesterfield single fares, not being subject to LNER’s single-leg pricing, are much more than half the price of a return.

Are there any destinations from London which still have return off-peak/super off-peak tickets, but would permit travel to Sheffield by either route (stopping short if necessary)?
 
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RailUK Forums

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JonathanH

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JoeM1V said:
Are there any destinations from London which still have return off-peak/super off-peak tickets, but would permit travel to Sheffield by either route (stopping short if necessary)?
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No. All the relevant LNER flows are converted to single leg pricing, and the relevant Super Off-Peak Single to Sheffield which would have been 'Any Permitted' is routed 'Not via Leicester' to avoid people using it on direct EMR services.

The LNER priced Super Off-Peak Single from London to Meadowhall remains routed 'Any Permitted', as do tickets from the South of London to Sheffield, such as Clapham Junction to Sheffield.
 
Haywain

Haywain

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JoeM1V said:
Return tickets from London to Sheffield used to be available that were valid either direct on EMR from St Pancras, or up the ECML and changing at Doncaster.
Click to expand...
In theory, I believe a Super Off-Peak Single routed via Chesterfield could be used via Doncaster as the excess payable to change the route to not via Leicester would be a negative amount. For a return ticket routed via Chesterfield the excess to change in one direction only should be £14.10 by my calculation. However, I cannot comment on how easy it would be to use tickets or obtain an excess fare in this way.
 
Merseysider

Merseysider

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DeverseSam said:
“Not via Leicester” does not exclude going via Tamworth or Birmingham by the way
Click to expand...
I don’t believe London to Sheffield via Birmingham is a permitted route? Via Tamworth / Nuneaton is, though.
 
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jfollows

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Merseysider said:
I don’t believe London to Sheffield via Birmingham is a permitted route? Via Tamworth / Nuneaton is, though.
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Via Tamworth/Nuneaton isn't a permitted route, unless it's the shortest route (which is probably Saint Pancras via Toton) or not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route or there's an easement - Tamworth is a permitted route to Derby but not to Sheffield.
Valid routes are shown at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps
  • AA + EE + MS
  • AA + HU + SH
  • EE + MS
  • HU + SH
  • KP + AM
  • KS + HU + MS
  • KS + HU + SH
  • SY
and I don't see Euston/WCML included in any of these (I’d expect to see TV + something if it were).

Splitting tickets at Derby would allow WCML/Tamworth but the routeing guide's not recursive so a single London-Sheffield ticket isn't valid over this route.
 
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H

HurdyGurdy

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JonathanH said:
The LNER priced Super Off-Peak Single from London to Meadowhall remains routed 'Any Permitted', as do tickets from the South of London to Sheffield, such as Clapham Junction to Sheffield.
Click to expand...

There is also the EMR priced SS2 version of the Super Off-Peak single from London to Sheffield, routed 'Via Chesterfield', available when booked in conjunction with an Advance or flexible single ticket from Sheffield to London. It's a bit cheaper than the above fare and if you use a booking site like Trainsplit or the forum's booking engine, where you can specify one way via Doncaster and the other via Chesterfield it should offer that, rather than the stand alone (SSS) fare, for the 'Via Chesterfield' leg.
 
Merseysider

Merseysider

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jfollows said:
Via Tamworth/Nuneaton isn't a permitted route, unless it's the shortest route (which is probably Saint Pancras via Toton) or not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route or there's an easement - Tamworth is a permitted route to Derby but not to Sheffield.
Valid routes are shown at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps
  • AA + EE + MS
  • AA + HU + SH
  • EE + MS
  • HU + SH
  • KP + AM
  • KS + HU + MS
  • KS + HU + SH
  • SY
and I don't see Euston/WCML included in any of these (I’d expect to see TV + something if it were).

Splitting tickets at Derby would allow WCML/Tamworth but the routeing guide's not recursive so a single London-Sheffield ticket isn't valid over this route.
Click to expand...
Ah - there is however a set of LNR & XC only walkups which allow travel via Nuneaton.
 
Watershed

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jfollows said:
True, per the attached, but it's not a valid route with "any permitted" tickets still, not that I'm suggesting you're saying otherwise.
View attachment 154317
Click to expand...
It's a valid route with an "Any Permitted" fare by virtue of these fares being (in most circumstances) cheaper than the "Any Permitted" or "not via Leicester" fare.
 
J

jfollows

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DeverseSam said:
Interesting, so on that basis you could use Avanti on the Tamworth route?
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The fare you'd be claiming to use is restricted "LNR AND XC ONLY" (see above) and it's not a permitted route otherwise, so I wouldn't think you could use Avanti, unless you could persuade a ticket-issuing site to generate an itinerary for you.
If you wanted to split at Derby then it'd be OK, but you'd then give up some other routes allowed on a London-Sheffield ticket, such as via Doncaster, so I'd say you can make a choice but you can't have it both ways.
But happy to be corrected ......

EDIT But think of it another way: it ought not to be permitted because (a) it's not a permitted route in the first place and (b) the introduction of a special "LNR AND XC ONLY" fare shouldn't therefore have any consequences on a different operator such as making this a valid route with their trains. However stranger things have happened.
 
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Merseysider

Merseysider

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jfollows said:
True, per the attached, but it's not a valid route with "any permitted" tickets still, not that I'm suggesting you're saying otherwise.
View attachment 154317
Click to expand...
I’m inclined to agree. I can’t see any basis on which using Avanti on an Any Permitted ticket to Sheffield would be permitted (nor can I see any chance of getting past the dragons at the Euston gateline) :lol:
 
kieron

kieron

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jfollows said:
Via Tamworth/Nuneaton isn't a permitted route, unless it's the shortest route (which is probably Saint Pancras via Toton) or not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route or there's an easement - Tamworth is a permitted route to Derby but not to Sheffield.
Click to expand...
Changing in Tamworth gives you the shortest route between Sheffield and London Euston (and you can check that this is valid on nre.co.uk*), but the only London-Sheffield returns which are valid that way are the "LNR & XC only" ones, and that doesn't help JoeM1V.

There are some fairly affordable tickets which would permit travel between London and Sheffield on either route. Equally, there are some people who would like it if there were fewer of them.

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