Agent_Squash
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My apologies, should’ve been clearer - edited for clarity.
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HS2 Old Oak Common
- Thread starter kevin_roche
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My apologies, should’ve been clearer - edited for clarity.
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Snow1964
Established Member
Travelling from South West or South Wales to East or North East via London might make sense, but travelling to North West makes a journey L shaped.
There is a fairly direct service (even if it is currently often a mere 4car voyager). The notion that everyone will suddenly think let's do extra 100 miles and change at Old Oak Common instead of taking a more direct train (often without a change) is bonkers.
If you were driving from Devon to North West wouldn't use A30, A303, M3, M25, M1, M6 for the fun of going near London, instead of A30, M5 to M6, so why would anyone think taking an indirect train via west London would be anyone's sensible choice.
Probably not even going to be a time saving if HS2 phase 2 doesn't get built. And if it does eventually open in late 2030s the voyagers will probably have been replaced by then, so on board experience going direct might be better than travelling on a GWR IET and a DfT spec'd HS2 train.
Old Oak Common will never be a key connection, it doesn't work if need a train from Kings Cross or St Pancras, and is indirect if train starts at Euston, basically people from South West would much prefer a quick connection at Birmingham Interchange, OOC as an interchange from SW its located 100 miles too far towards South East
Bristol to Birmingham is about 95 miles
Bristol to Birmingham via Old Oak is about 210 miles
exact distances depend on route
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I’m pretty sure the potential for diversions to Euston are being taken seriously.
It’s going to be more 2 platform faces going into one line, on each line (Up & Down, Main & Relief). This is how London Bridge works for Southeastern and there isn’t massive problems nor a “bottleneck”. If anything, having an extra platform face is much more convenient as opposed to the line being completely locked ahead as you could route around if there was a station issue (e.g. an ill passenger).
Moving into 4 lines is no different to today. Also the line regularly goes down to 2 track for engineering works and there is not mass disruption each time.
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Surely that depends on what the speeds of the two routes are? Driving isn’t a good analogy as you’re 70mph max whichever way you go, whereas GWML and HS2 are faster than the Cross-Country route. It wouldn’t make it up if you’re only going as far as Birmingham, but for Manchester it might well be close enough to be worth considering.
To be fair I would counter that there is. Just look at Paddington last weekend, and this weekend. Services were already cut back to allow engineering to take place, and even then the timetable was struggling as it was. As soon as a small issue occurred the delays spiraled.
The Planner
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To the point that they will happen.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Yes, having HS2 trains stopping at - or terminating at - OOC (if it really happens...) is surely only a useful interchange for connections to various places in the London area, not for imagined dogleg connections to the West Country. So GWML services are largely irrelevant; Crossrail connections would obviously be useful, yes [indeed essential in the case of a terminus!], but so too would slick links onto both the Overground lines nearby (and the suggested new one, Duddon Hill etc, too). It would surely make more sense to put resources into rerouting/linking all those connections for OOC interchanges, rather than into GWML links. Slick Crossrail-LO connections there would themselves be a great aid to suburban London connectivity, irrespective of HS2.
GardenRail
Member
When will we know for definite if the railway will continue to Euston?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
When there is a private-sector-funded plan to build the new Euston with loads of housing/offices in the mix.
HS2 will want to know in about a year's time if it can bore the tunnels from OOC to the Euston throat.
The OOC station was designed when the HS2 network was supposed to reach the East Midlands and Leeds/York, ie replacing MML and ECML services.
None of that is happening now, so OOC will just interchange with WCML services.
Assume you mean Euston? A WCML extension to OOC would be quite something
Was that infrastructure related, or train and crew related though? Not that I'm defending the recent GWML performance.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Well, that's called HS2 (from Handsacre)!
It will have the same operator, after all.
There's less and less reason to treat HS2 as an independent railway now, it's just another leg of the WCML network.
Last weekend there wasn't even a reason for it published. 2 lines closed for OOC works and late running trains etc just seemed to slow the whole thing down. Trains ridiculously late even by Reading. This weekend was infrastructure with a signaling failure,
Waterlemon
Member
Realtime Trains | 5Q82 1122 Willesden S.W.S. to London Euston | 18/03/2024
Real-time train running information for 5Q82 1122 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to London Euston on 18/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Realtime Trains | 5Q82 1122 Willesden S.W.S. to London Euston | 18/03/2024
Real-time train running information for 5Q82 1122 departure from Willesden S.W.S. to London Euston on 18/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
Not sure that's purporting to show what you think it is? It could be, but doesn't seem to be.
Snow1964
Established Member
SCS (Skanska, Costain, and Austrian firm Strabag) are expecting to start boring the tunnels in 2025.
My understanding is they have to bore a few hundred metres to get the TBMs out of the way of the Eastern end of Old Oak Station. Even if they then stopped and didn't go any further.
In reality don't want to be moving muck out and tunnel segments in at the eastern end of a station they are trying to fit it out and make it operational. It is also lot easier to shift the crews as they finish another TBM than disband them, and have to build up new team. So my gut feeling is will go ahead, even if still dithering over building Euston.
Approaching Euston one tunnel splits into two, and one rolls around the outbound tunnel, so there are two approach tunnels one each side, with departing trains leaving by a centrally placed departure tunnel. This is to minimise conflicts on the approach with departing trains.
I can't remember how this third tunnel is scheduled to be built, I think one of the TBMs is turned at Euston portal and sent back to the junction, possibly this wouldn't happen until Euston build goes ahead.
Indeed, links to a diagram of this have been posted twice in the last week, in posts #12 and #16 of the following thread:
HS2 Euston - Development, design and construction news (not speculation, please)
Two recent developments to report: The budget documentation yesterday states “The government is working with Lendlease – the Euston Master Development Partner – and the London Borough of Camden to identify parts of the station site for early release and development in coming months, and...
www.railforums.co.uk
Waterlemon
Member
It is.
The Planner
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Have they ran a Waterloo first, seems odd as they have no intention of running there?
Sir Felix Pole
Member
Devon and Cornwall to Manchester is already pretty competitive via London, despite the change of termini. Plymouth to Manchester by XC is typically around 5h 30m to 5h 40m, with one change - sadly through services have disappeared, despite the long-standing demand. Plymouth to Paddington is 3h to 3h 30m and Euston to Manchester 2h 6m to 2h 11m, with the later route having three trains an hour to choose from. OOC will be a convenient interchange, a slighly less journey time from the West and then HS2 speeds to Manchester. I know which way I'll be going - assuming I'm still around by the time it actually happens!
I don‘t know why you persist with this line of argument, but there will be trains from OOC to Manchester, Liverpool and probably Scotland as soon as the Handsacre link is commissioned and operating.
irish_rail
Established Member
Because it is bonkers that someone should be forced to travel 100s of extra miles to travel between two British cities, just because the government would sooner invest in shiny sparkly new lines instead of proper length trains (looking at you XC!). Plymouth is closer to Liverpool as the crow flies than London, yet in this glorious New HS2 world, should I wish to make that journey I'd be doing a ridiculous amount of additional mileage going via London. What's needed is decent length cross country trains connecting the country up. Would be way more beneficial to the UK as a whole than HS2 but that is no doubt a debate for another thread.
Fair. Odd place for a GWR unit to start, but I guess there is a way out via North Pole.
Depends what the capacity constraints are via Staines I suppose. If not that way, onto the SWML a reversal at Reading and then again at Basingstoke, is a fair bit of hassle* as opposed to no reversal to continue via Acton Wells into Euston.
*Assuming the trains are still calling at Reading
Edit: They could go via Willesden and Shepherds Bush to Waterloo, I suppose.
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I wasn’t arguing that point - no one will be forced to travel via OOC - it was merely that you suggested that HS2 trains wouldnt be going to Manchester etc. They will.
FWIW, I doubt if many people will route Plymouth - OOC - Manchester. But Reading - OOC - Manchester will be about an hour quicker than direct, and Swindon / Newbury to Manchester will be quicker via OOC if the connections are reasonable.
Meanwhile in France, there are plenty of examples where cross country journeys are much wuicker with a god leg via Paris.
jfowkes
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Does the total journey distance really matter to people? Cost and time are going to be the drivers when deciding to travel via a particular route. Distance is of course a factor in both cost and time, but not the only factor, and probably not the most important one in either case.
irish_rail
Established Member
I'd say its unlikely to work out cheaper (or much quicker) doing say Plymouth to the north west via OOC.
Great for Reading then. But I'm sure those Reading passengers travelling to the north west could cope with a couple of trains an hour to OOC fast (or the stoppers) . I think the idea that every single train must stop at OOC for the benefit of the relatively few people travelling from the likes of Reading and Newbury to the North West is fanciful at best. By all means have some fast trains calling at OOC, say one ex Bristol calling at the likes of Swindon, and one say ex Exeter stopper stopping at likes of Newbury and Reading. But absolutely no good reason to stop intercity trains from the far south west or Wales to have to stop at OOC.
Grimsby town
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It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Plymouth to Manchester journeys did switch to going via OOC as things stand. It'd almost certainly be quicker than changing at Birmingham based on current timetable.
Personally I quite like the change on such a long journey so I generally choose via London than direct trains to the south from Manchester. I'm probably not overly typical though. There's often greater availability of cheap advances via London due to the longer trains.
Overall its to difficult to predict this far out. There's a lot of potential influences:
- Will CrossCountry be operating directly between Plymouth and Manchester.
- Will Crosscountry trains be short and capacity constrained.
- Will the (likely hourly to begin with) OOC-Manchester train connect well with a Plymouth train.
irish_rail
Established Member
I think the key point here is that you are using the via London option due to the the poor service provided by XC. If XC would just run some direct services between the far south west and north west, and ran trains with a decent number of coaches (at least 7) , then there would be no need for travellers to be forced to make the massive "eastern" diversion. If only XC could provide an adequate service then so much of HS2 would become redundant. Take Reading to Birmingham. If instead of 4 car Voyagers, that ran with 8 car 80x trains then suddenly it would become a far more attractive way to travel north. There are many much cheaper ways to stimulate growth and relieve pressure on the WCML than HS2 but it seems it is now too late to admit we got it wrong with HS2 and can CAN the whole project in favour of better XC trains.
The Planner
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How does improving XC resolve capacity issues on the WCML over the next couple of decades?
irish_rail
Established Member
I am responding to all those on here who keep talking about people doing journeys from the south to the north via HS2. If XC was better than nobody would need to be travelling up north via London, except for those in the far south east. If WCML is short of capacity I'm not quite sure how GWR trains from Plymouth and Swansea stopping at OOC is really going to help the situation.....WCML south capacity is a self contained problem that is needlessly trying to drag down other routes and regions.